FF1 or Showcase 4...which is in 2nd place in the SA?

[VintageComics]

 

If MM's appearance in Tec 225 was a failure, would Showcase 4 exist?

 

That's like asking if Tec #225 would exist if Young Men #24/25 weren't printed the previous year. Impossible to say without a first hand account of what the publisher was thinking but it's obvious that Superheros were being used for material to an increasing degree, over a period of time. Changes were happening the way any age changes, and there were larger landmarks as well as smaller shifts that might be forgotten (or less obvious today unless you are a historian).

 

It would be comics sold on the newsstand that determined the direction a publisher would take in future issues. I don't think anyone said Tec #225 was a failure. There was obviously interest since the character continued to be featured. It just likely did not pop as much as Showcase #4 did a few months later because it didn't have the Manuhunter featured on the cover.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Hepcat]

So does that mean Importance = Popularity? To me, the importance of Tec 225 is it's place in history as the turning point of DC ushering in new/different characters for the Silver age. Since Tec 225 is an earlier start, to me it's more important. Obviously, SC4 is the more popular and valuable book. But does that by default make it the more important book? Not to me.

 

Hmmmm. To a certain extent. I think "importance" is perhaps best defined as popularity at the time combined with ingrained place in comic book history.

 

[Hepcat]

But the Martian Manhunter was nothing but a derivative character and ended up playing out his career as a permanent backup in the pages of Detective Even when given cover feature status in the secondary/tertiary House of Mystery title in 1964, he couldn't sustain the title and within ten issues lost his lead status to Robby Reed of all characters.

 

Flash, on the other hand, was one of the two characters that defined DC's Silver Age for me and other DC buyers at the time. (The other was Green Lantern.)

 

If MM's appearance in Tec 225 was a failure, would Showcase 4 exist?

 

I'd argue that the existence of Showcase 4 was independent of the Martian Manhunter's intro. First of all, J'onn J'onzz was no great success. Secondly, you had different editors at DC. Julius Schwartz (Flash) and Jack Schiff (Detective Comics & J'onn J'onzz) marched to different drummers.

 

[HarveySwick]

There are some really valid points made that Showcase #4 essentially sparked the SA and FF #1 started the Marvel Age. I was just reading the responses from some very knowledgeable guys ( ) and was surprised that you guys would rank AF #15 lower than the both of them. As far as iconic characters in comics, the "Big 3" have to be Superman, Batman and Spider-man, right?

 

Oh absolutely! Spider-Man is a great hero and is now right up there with Superman and Batman. Some may even argue that Spidey has now nosed ahead.

 

But had it not been for Showcase 4 and then Fantastic Four 1 and the revolution in super-hero comics they precipitated, Spider-Man might not have been launched in Amazing Fantasy 15, if at all.... There may have been no Second Heroic Age, no Silver Age, no Marvel Age of comics without Showcase 4 and then Fantastic Four 1. Imagine that if you can.

 

 

True. I can't argue with that logic. (thumbs u

 

I'd put FF #1 first then. DC already had their line of superheroes with Superman, Batman, Flash etc. They just revamped them. With FF #1, Marvel created a new line of superheroes, leading as you say, to Spider-man!

[mackenzie999]

Pardon my staggering ignorance, but if Bats, Supes, and WW were all in continuous publication since their beginnings, why is the Flash reboot, or any single DC comic of that era, seen as so significant? FF1, even though just a rehash of the Challengers, at least represents a new direction for Marvel. But for DC, superheroes never actually stopped, did they?

[ChasingKingKirby]

Pardon my staggering ignorance, but if Bats, Supes, and WW were all in continuous publication since their beginnings, why is the Flash reboot, or any single DC comic of that era, seen as so significant? FF1, even though just a rehash of the Challengers, at least represents a new direction for Marvel. But for DC, superheroes never actually stopped, did they?

 

Actually, that's not a bad question. Flash, GL and several other characters had new starts, but not Bats, Supes and Wonder Woman. Flash and GL were NEW characters in old roles, maybe that's it?

[rjpb]

 

If MM's appearance in Tec 225 was a failure, would Showcase 4 exist?

 

That's like asking if Tec #225 would exist if Young Men #24/25 weren't printed the previous year. Impossible to say without a first hand account of what the publisher was thinking but it's obvious that Superheros were being used for material to an increasing degree, over a period of time. Changes were happening the way any age changes, and there were larger landmarks as well as smaller shifts that might be forgotten (or less obvious today unless you are a historian).

 

It would be comics sold on the newsstand that determined the direction a publisher would take in future issues. I don't think anyone said Tec #225 was a failure. There was obviously interest since the character continued to be featured. It just likely did not pop as much as Showcase #4 did a few months later because it didn't have the Manuhunter featured on the cover.

 

 

I can't imagine that Martian Manhunter's reception had anything to do with the decision to revamp the Flash in Showcase #4. He was a backup character who received four cover mentions before being largely ignored. If DC thought he had any potential at the time, he would have gotten his own try-out series in Showcase.

 

Retrospectively, Tec 225 is a key book for sure, but it's no more the start of the SIlver Age than Tec 233 ( first Batwoman) is, or for that matter, Yellow Claw #1 is the start of Marvel's Sliver Age. While I find books like Tec 225 and Yellow Claw #1 more interesting than Showcase #4, and Marvel keys more compelling than DC SA keys in general, Showcase #4 will always be considered the book that started the SA by me, and I'd venture most collectors out there agree. That doesn't mean I believe that all books ( DC and otherwise) that were published after Showcase #4 are automatically SA books, but I have a fairly fluid notion of what constitutes the Gold, Silver and Atom Ages, and see them as overlapping, or in some cases not even relevant ( Dell anyone).

[VintageComics]

Pardon my staggering ignorance, but if Bats, Supes, and WW were all in continuous publication since their beginnings, why is the Flash reboot, or any single DC comic of that era, seen as so significant? FF1, even though just a rehash of the Challengers, at least represents a new direction for Marvel. But for DC, superheroes never actually stopped, did they?

 

Actually, that's not a bad question. Flash, GL and several other characters had new starts, but not Bats, Supes and Wonder Woman. Flash and GL were NEW characters in old roles, maybe that's it?

 

I'm quite sure that Bats, Supes and WW had continuous publication right through.

 

From what I can gather, heroes lagged after the 1940's and the war.

 

It might have something to do with Captain Marvel (and Fawcett) being put out of business by a lawsuit thereby killing the single most popular superhero character in comics and removing any real competition, it might have to do with a change of heart by the US after the war, and it might have something to do with the industrial revolution. Sci Fi was certain becoming popular as technology advanced.

 

Whatever it was, after roughly a decade of heroes, horror, romance, sci fi, etc took over.

 

Publishers tried to bring back a decade after that with interesting ideas and heroes were the ones that made it big and stuck after a few years of weaving them back into titles.

 

 

[rjpb]

Pardon my staggering ignorance, but if Bats, Supes, and WW were all in continuous publication since their beginnings, why is the Flash reboot, or any single DC comic of that era, seen as so significant? FF1, even though just a rehash of the Challengers, at least represents a new direction for Marvel. But for DC, superheroes never actually stopped, did they?

 

Actually, that's not a bad question. Flash, GL and several other characters had new starts, but not Bats, Supes and Wonder Woman. Flash and GL were NEW characters in old roles, maybe that's it?

 

Thus the eternal conundrum of what the first SA appearances of Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman are, much debated and never resolved.

[ChasingKingKirby]

Wonder woman is the easier of the three, WW105 makes sense as the start of the Silver Age for her. Supes? No idea.

 

Tec 225 for Bats is a cheap answer, because it's such a significant book. But it's significant for reasons outside of Bats. Bats 121, same thing...

[Hepcat]

Flash, GL and several other characters had new starts, but not Bats, Supes and Wonder Woman. Flash and GL were NEW characters in old roles, maybe that's it?

 

Thus the eternal conundrum of what the first SA appearances of Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman are, much debated and never resolved.

 

There are indeed no hard and fast dates for the first SA appearances of Superman and Batman but there is for Wonder Woman - that being issue #98. Not only was a new origin for Wonder Woman given in that issue, but the team of Ross Andru and Mike Esposito took over the interior artwork from that relic of the Golden Age, H.G. Peter, as well.

 

Mike's Amazing World of DC Comics

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=6793838&fpart=1

 

 

 

[KirbyJack]

Supes, Bats and WW did indeed continue thru the Atom Age (1946-1956), but so did Aquaman and Green Arrow, off and on. In the case of Aquaman and Green Arrow, it had nothing to do with the popularity of the characters (hidden in already popular anthologies), and everything to do with Mort Weisinger wanting paychecks as the creator of both.

There were others that popped up during the hero lull prior to Showcase #4; the aforementioned Atlas trio (Subby, HT and Cap), Black Cobra, The Avenger, and others.

One of those others was Ron Kar, from Bat-Man #78, an earlier, but just as green, Manhunter From Mars. Ron's existence makes it tougher for me to get really worked up about J'onn J'onzz.

 

Showcase #4 did indeed do more than re-intro a GA character, it married two genres, super-hero and sci-fi, and it really made an impact on the readers of the late 50s and very early 60s. There are lots of stories citing Showcase #4 as a "breath of fresh air", and DC knew they had something.

 

However, as a Marvel guy, it's my opinion was that what they had was just another trend, and like all the other comic book trends preceding it, it would run its course over a 4-7 year cycle. For me, the real biggie of the Silver Age, and the reason so many of those characters are still enjoying uninterrupted, 50 year old runs, is Fantastic Four #1. With that issue, Marvel built a better mousetrap. For the first time, artists, not writers or editors, were the primary influence in what is essentially a visual medium due to the Marvel Method, and having two or three authentic geniuses in the same place and time resulted in the Marvel Age.

[rjpb]

Supes, Bats and WW did indeed continue thru the Atom Age (1946-1956), but so did Aquaman and Green Arrow, off and on. In the case of Aquaman and Green Arrow, it had nothing to do with the popularity of the characters (hidden in already popular anthologies), and everything to do with Mort Weisinger wanting paychecks as the creator of both.

There were others that popped up during the hero lull prior to Showcase #4; the aforementioned Atlas trio (Subby, HT and Cap), Black Cobra, The Avenger, and others.

One of those others was Ron Kar, from Bat-Man #78, an earlier, but just as green, Manhunter From Mars. Ron's existence makes it tougher for me to get really worked up about J'onn J'onzz.

 

Showcase #4 did indeed do more than re-intro a GA character, it married two genres, super-hero and sci-fi, and it really made an impact on the readers of the late 50s and very early 60s. There are lots of stories citing Showcase #4 as a "breath of fresh air", and DC knew they had something.

 

However, as a Marvel guy, it's my opinion was that what they had was just another trend, and like all the other comic book trends preceding it, it would run its course over a 4-7 year cycle. For me, the real biggie of the Silver Age, and the reason so many of those characters are still enjoying uninterrupted, 50 year old runs, is Fantastic Four #1. With that issue, Marvel built a better mousetrap. For the first time, artists, not writers or editors, were the primary influence in what is essentially a visual medium due to the Marvel Method, and having two or three authentic geniuses in the same place and time resulted in the Marvel Age.

 

Excellent post (thumbs u

[HarveySwick]

Supes, Bats and WW did indeed continue thru the Atom Age (1946-1956), but so did Aquaman and Green Arrow, off and on. In the case of Aquaman and Green Arrow, it had nothing to do with the popularity of the characters (hidden in already popular anthologies), and everything to do with Mort Weisinger wanting paychecks as the creator of both.

There were others that popped up during the hero lull prior to Showcase #4; the aforementioned Atlas trio (Subby, HT and Cap), Black Cobra, The Avenger, and others.

One of those others was Ron Kar, from Bat-Man #78, an earlier, but just as green, Manhunter From Mars. Ron's existence makes it tougher for me to get really worked up about J'onn J'onzz.

 

Showcase #4 did indeed do more than re-intro a GA character, it married two genres, super-hero and sci-fi, and it really made an impact on the readers of the late 50s and very early 60s. There are lots of stories citing Showcase #4 as a "breath of fresh air", and DC knew they had something.

 

However, as a Marvel guy, it's my opinion was that what they had was just another trend, and like all the other comic book trends preceding it, it would run its course over a 4-7 year cycle. For me, the real biggie of the Silver Age, and the reason so many of those characters are still enjoying uninterrupted, 50 year old runs, is Fantastic Four #1. With that issue, Marvel built a better mousetrap. For the first time, artists, not writers or editors, were the primary influence in what is essentially a visual medium due to the Marvel Method, and having two or three authentic geniuses in the same place and time resulted in the Marvel Age.

[VintageComics]

I was waiting for you to show up.

[ChasingKingKirby]

Flash, GL and several other characters had new starts, but not Bats, Supes and Wonder Woman. Flash and GL were NEW characters in old roles, maybe that's it?

 

Thus the eternal conundrum of what the first SA appearances of Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman are, much debated and never resolved.

 

There are indeed no hard and fast dates for the first SA appearances of Superman and Batman but there is for Wonder Woman - that being issue #98. Not only was a new origin for Wonder Woman given in that issue, but the team of Ross Andru and Mike Esposito took over the interior artwork from that relic of the Golden Age, H.G. Peter, as well.

 

Mike's Amazing World of DC Comics

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=6793838&fpart=1

 

 

 

The first part of that thread leans toward 105 being the start of the silver age for Wonder Woman. As I indicated on the previous page.

 

Honestly, there's a lot of debate as to whether 98 or 105 start the silver age for WW. (Some even say 79 I believe...)

[Hepcat]

Well the most compelling piece of evidence is that DC itself has anointed issue #98 as the start of Wonder Woman's Silver Age in the new Wonder Woman - The Amazon Princess Archive:

 

 

[jaja-mon12]

Pardon my staggering ignorance, but if Bats, Supes, and WW were all in continuous publication since their beginnings, why is the Flash reboot, or any single DC comic of that era, seen as so significant? FF1, even though just a rehash of the Challengers, at least represents a new direction for Marvel. But for DC, superheroes never actually stopped, did they?

 

Actually, that's not a bad question. Flash, GL and several other characters had new starts, but not Bats, Supes and Wonder Woman. Flash and GL were NEW characters in old roles, maybe that's it?

 

Thus the eternal conundrum of what the first SA appearances of Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman are, much debated and never resolved.

 

I have found out some recent info about the 'first' SA appearances of Supes, Bats, & WW on the CGC forums and just browsing the Internet! We all know there is nothing 'official' for Supes & Bats, but DC has made their decision for WW's clear. Here is what I got as the 'Big 3' first SA appearances in my queries:

 

Superman - Action Comics #241; First appearance of Fortress of Solitude (Fort Superman)

 

Batman - Detective Comics #265; It re-tells Bats origin with new facts and its officially his first case.

 

WW - Wonder Woman #98 & #99; This is a two part origin and has new artwork done by Ross Andru & Mike Esposito.

[ChasingKingKirby]

Pardon my staggering ignorance, but if Bats, Supes, and WW were all in continuous publication since their beginnings, why is the Flash reboot, or any single DC comic of that era, seen as so significant? FF1, even though just a rehash of the Challengers, at least represents a new direction for Marvel. But for DC, superheroes never actually stopped, did they?

 

Actually, that's not a bad question. Flash, GL and several other characters had new starts, but not Bats, Supes and Wonder Woman. Flash and GL were NEW characters in old roles, maybe that's it?

 

Thus the eternal conundrum of what the first SA appearances of Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman are, much debated and never resolved.

 

I have found out some recent info about the 'first' SA appearances of Supes, Bats, & WW on the CGC forums and just browsing the Internet! We all know there is nothing 'official' for Supes & Bats, but DC has made their decision for WW's clear. Here is what I got as the 'Big 3' first SA appearances in my queries:

 

Superman - Action Comics #241; First appearance of Fortress of Solitude (Fort Superman)

 

Batman - Detective Comics #265; It re-tells Bats origin with new facts and its officially his first case.

 

WW - Wonder Woman #98 & #99; This is a two part origin and has new artwork done by Ross Andru & Mike Esposito.

 

But... but... 242 intro's a "NEW" popular super-villain for Supes. :shrug:

[ChasingKingKirby]

Well the most compelling piece of evidence is that DC itself has anointed issue #98 as the start of Wonder Woman's Silver Age in the new Wonder Woman - The Amazon Princess Archive:

 

 

 

Works for me... :thumbsup:

 

Kind of anecdotal, but GPA price averages are fairly similar for 98 and 105. So seems as though collectors value them similarly with perhaps a slight edge to 105.