CGC v. PGX?

[rjpb]

Congrats on the grade bumps. While folks are rightfully critical about PGX for a number of their business practices, they seem fairly consistent with CGC on higher grade books, and sometimes tighter. The real concerns are not that they don't know how to grade these books, but are issues like undisclosed or missed restoration, pumped grades for books they or their associates are selling themselves, and a general mistrust of the company in general.

 

From what I've seen, where PGX really falls apart grading wise is on 4.0 and under Golden Age. Every time I see a GA book in a 3.0/3.5 PGX holder listed on ebay, it invariably has issues that would cap it out at 1.8/2.0 for most collectors, and frequently has enough glue on it to be considered restored as well.

[Lost]

Congrats on the grade bumps. While folks are rightfully critical about PGX for a number of their business practices, they seem fairly consistent with CGC on higher grade books, and sometimes tighter. The real concerns are not that they don't know how to grade these books, but are issues like undisclosed or missed restoration, pumped grades for books they or their associates are selling themselves, and a general mistrust of the company in general.

 

From what I've seen, where PGX really falls apart grading wise is on 4.0 and under Golden Age. Every time I see a GA book in a 3.0/3.5 PGX holder listed on ebay, it invariably has issues that would cap it out at 1.8/2.0 for most collectors, and frequently has enough glue on it to be considered restored as well.

 

Good post. I agree. I think customers just want an unbiased opinion because really, that's what we are paying for. Well that and a restoration check as well as a protective display case. But anyway...I think most collectors understand and can brush off a grade or 2 off from person to person or company to company. It is expected dealing with opinions. What we can't accept is mentioned above.

[mschmidt]

Congrats on the grade bumps. While folks are rightfully critical about PGX for a number of their business practices, they seem fairly consistent with CGC on higher grade books, and sometimes tighter.

 

I've heard this mentioned a couple of times before ... if that was really true, how would one explain the crazy abundance of PGX 9.9 and 10.0 books?

 

Before they removed the PGX census from their site, it was obvious that they were handing out 9.9s on modern books like it was going out on style - there were certain books where 90% of the graded copies were 9.9s or higher which is pretty ridiculous.

 

You can still see this in effect on eBay - "CGC 9.8" gives you about 22k results back, "CGC 9.9" gives you 475. Now do the same search for PGX and you get 434 results for 9.8 and 353 results for 9.9. That, to me, does not point to a company that's tight on high grade books.

[Green]

This is one of my first times posting, and having bought some CGC and PGX books in the past I have found that PGX grades way more leniently. I great example is the 3-D DC covers that came out not that long ago. PGX had a bunch of 10.0 and CGC mostly 9.8

 

My BIGGEST complaint when it comes to CGC and PGX are the plastic holders. CGC holders are flimsy and are a lot weaker than PGX holders. I wish CGC would go to a thicker, better more sturdy holder instead of charging $ to re case books. But that would be a loss for the company so it makes sense. Just pisses me off as a collector. I still like the CGC better.

 

CGC cases are fragile on purpose. Not for reholdering revenue, this is so that tampering is near impossible. If you have the proper tools pgx cases are very simple to open and close with no damage whatsoever. In fact i have a small stack that ive cracked and use for top loaders.

[Tony S]

Congrats on the grade bumps. While folks are rightfully critical about PGX for a number of their business practices, they seem fairly consistent with CGC on higher grade books, and sometimes tighter.

 

I've heard this mentioned a couple of times before ... if that was really true, how would one explain the crazy abundance of PGX 9.9 and 10.0 books?

 

Before they removed the PGX census from their site, it was obvious that they were handing out 9.9s on modern books like it was going out on style - there were certain books where 90% of the graded copies were 9.9s or higher which is pretty ridiculous.

 

You can still see this in effect on eBay - "CGC 9.8" gives you about 22k results back, "CGC 9.9" gives you 475. Now do the same search for PGX and you get 434 results for 9.8 and 353 results for 9.9. That, to me, does not point to a company that's tight on high grade books.

 

We don't disagree - or at least I don't disagree with you. It's mostly a matter of linguistics. What does one mean by "higher grade"? Another fair question is "how many 9.9's and 10's should there be?".

 

First off, when I say "higher grade" I am thinking 8.0-9.4. 9.6 and and above I think of as "ultra high grade" Most people have great difficulty grading books at better than NM. 9.9's and 10's are in a league of their own - I don't know what I'd call them but when I say "higher grade" I'm certainly not thinking of them. CGC won't even do a prescreen above 9.8. Which means they can't trust their own pre-screen graders to reliably identify books at that level.

 

My own experience is that PGX books graded 8.0 and above overall do OK grade wise when unslabbed and cross graded. If you know the time periods PGX was stricter, you increase the odds. I cannot say this about low to mid grade PGX books. You will often lose a grade or three if you cross grade a PGX 4.0

 

Now, about the number of 9.9's and 10's. If this conversation takes place outside of a discussion about PGX. there seems to be widespread agreement here that CGC is rather chintzy, even erratic, about awarding the these top two "MINT' grades. Prior to being purchased by CCG (parent of CGC), Matt Nelson's website (Classics Incorporated) had a page where he demonstrated - mathematically - why there ought to be more 9.9's and 10's in the census.

 

My own personal favorite example is Spectacular Spider-Man 1 from 1976. This book was widely speculated on, with dealers and collectors purchasing case lots. Well into the 80's you would occasionally see unopened boxes of 100 for sale. CGC has graded 3200 copies of this book. 1709 copies are NM or better. 1001 copies are better than NM. 281 copies are 9.8. There isn't a single 9.9 or 10. NOT ONE. For real? Not one of the 281 9.8's was a 9.9? On books where hundreds if not a thousand of the submitted copies were unread?

 

If PGX is giving 9.9's and 10's out to freely, CGC isn't giving out enough.

 

None of this makes PGX right nor CGC wrong. The board detectives have clearly identified a disproportionate of these uber PGX grades showing up with a notorious seller or two.

[rjpb]

Tony sums it up quite well on the very top grades, though in my less than humble opinion 9.9 and 10 are the same grade, and completely arbitrary, and there is enough give in any grade that all 9.8s could end up either a 9.6 or a 9.9 on a different day.

[mschmidt]

Tony sums it up quite well on the very top grades, though in my less than humble opinion 9.9 and 10 are the same grade, and completely arbitrary, and there is enough give in any grade that all 9.8s could end up either a 9.6 or a 9.9 on a different day.

 

I very much disagree with that assessment - if you cracked & resubbed 100 random CGC 9.8 books, I'm willing to bet good money you wouldn't get a single 9.9 back. Whilst a soft 9.8 and a strong 9.6 can change grades upon a resub, 9.8s and 9.9s are in no way interchangeable.

[telerites]

And so begins a run on mid-high grade PGX books in hopes of CGC upgrades...

 

PGX-CP?R

 

[rjpb]

Tony sums it up quite well on the very top grades, though in my less than humble opinion 9.9 and 10 are the same grade, and completely arbitrary, and there is enough give in any grade that all 9.8s could end up either a 9.6 or a 9.9 on a different day.

 

I very much disagree with that assessment - if you cracked & resubbed 100 random CGC 9.8 books, I'm willing to bet good money you wouldn't get a single 9.9 back. Whilst a soft 9.8 and a strong 9.6 can change grades upon a resub, 9.8s and 9.9s are in no way interchangeable.

 

I don't mean to imply that all 9.8s are potentially 9.9s, but that are all potentially another grade other than what is currently in the corner. CGC 9.9s on resub are going to be infrequent as CGC is far less generous in handing the grade out than with 9.8s, with some books having hundreds of 9.8s and zero 9.9s, and ratios of better than 50:1 uncommon. With 100 random 9.8s, there's a good chance that none would come back as a 9.9 ( especially if you consider some were soft 9.8s to begin with), with 1000, I would be surprised if none did, but the question isn't how many, it's would anyone be able to guess which 9.8 would end up a 9.9 in advance.

[Tony S]

And so begins a run on mid-high grade PGX books in hopes of CGC upgrades...

 

PGX-CP?R

 

 

It hasn't and I don't think will result in a "run" on higher graded PGX books. What has happened and will likely continue is this: Higher graded PGX books that aren't super expensive (less than $500 for sure and even up close to $1000) AND that have a solid amount of demand are achieving comparable prices to the same books graded by CGC,

 

I'll restate and refine the criteria that I have observed.

The book can't be way expensive. Over a grand for sure, even over $500, the market prefers the CGC brand and pays a premium.

 

Relatively popular titles and/or characters. I can't say for sure as I haven't actually seen any for sale, but PGX probably are not the best slabs (as far as resale) for the first 27 issues of Brave and Bold. Those books are only on the want list of rather advanced collectors. To the masses, they are the just the books before the first JLA.

 

The right venue. You can't sell PGX books here and even if you could they likely wouldn't do well. We are talking eBay, ComicConnect, ComicLink

 

I have thought about posting the info below up a few times. but typically PGX discussions get a bit crazy and I'm not into drama. And these are after all CGC sponsored forums - which deserves respect. The January 2014 ComicLink auction had an unusually large number of PGX graded Amazing Spider-Man books. So many that a number of direct, head to head comparisons occurred. The same books being auctioned to the same crowd at exactly the same time. Closing within seconds of each other. This is a rather rare occurrence. If you follow pricing trends, you typically are just comparing recent sales to the GPA average. But this was head to head. Nine different books. The results will surprise many

 

CGC vs PGX COMPARISIONS

 

ASM 16 9.0 Comiclink 1/21/14 CGC 1000 PGX $1047

ASM 46 8.5 Comiclink 1/21/14 CGC $151 PGX $200

ASM 73 8.5 Comiclink 1/21/14 CGC $90 PGX $43

ASM 78 8,5 Comiclink 1/21/14 CGC $66 PGX $69

ASM 84 9.0 Comiclink 1/21/14 CGC $88 PGX $83

ASM 91 9.0 Comiclink 1/21/14 CGC $78 PGX $78 TIE

ASM 129 9.6 ComicLink 1/21/14 CGC $1921 PGX $1422

ASM 129 7.5 Comiclink 1/21/14 CGC $454 PGX $444

ASM 300 9.4 Comiclink 1/23/14 CGC $181 PGX $182

 

Nine books. Four wins for CGC. Four wins for PGX. One tie. When the book was expensive - The ASM 129 in 9.6 - the market premium for the CGC brand was big - $500 or about 25%. Same book in 7.5? A win for CGC - but by $10 or about 2%. Less than the difference in the cost of grading.

 

I'm not advocating for any company. I bet I sent near a thousand books to CGC the last 12 months. I just follow what books sell for. I buy and sell books and Knowledge is after all power.

 

[Meeklo]

And so begins a run on mid-high grade PGX books in hopes of CGC upgrades...

 

PGX-CP?R

 

 

I think I just got a lucky fluke. I more than likely will not be doing that again.

[telerites]

And so begins a run on mid-high grade PGX books in hopes of CGC upgrades...

 

PGX-CP?R

 

 

I think I just got a lucky fluke. I more than likely will not be doing that again.

 

My post wasn't directed at you or anyone, really. I am happy you received higher grades. I have bought a few GA PGX books because they were tough to find at all and actually a few them did receive an upgrade when I cracked and subbed to CGC.

 

My comment was written more in jest but I do know the power of these boards at times to influence. I'd prefer PGX go away and I would I love there to be a reputable competitor to CGC emerge.

 

 

[Meeklo]

So a month or so ago I purchased this off ebay…

 

 

The day they came in, they were quickly put into a box and sent off to CGC. I have just seen that my submission has been graded so I believe I got about a week or so before I can see the grades. Just curious if anyone wants to potentially weigh in a guess what they will come back as. I know we all love to see PGX vs CGC grades so I thought this would be fun while I wait for them.

 

So here they are!

 

 

[MrGreen]

very nice Meeklo. Did you send them to cgc in the pgx cases?(sorry if this is a dumb question) I have a spider-man 300 pgx 9.0, would be happy to send it to cgc if they gave me a 9.2

[Meeklo]

Yes I did but you have to put a note on them asking for the slab to be removed. They will not crack them open without special written permission from you.

[MrGreen]

Yes I did but you have to put a note on them asking for the slab to be removed. They will not crack them open without special written permission from you.

 

Thanks Meeklo! Have you done this before? If so did any of your books come back with a lower grade?

[Meeklo]

Yes I did but you have to put a note on them asking for the slab to be removed. They will not crack them open without special written permission from you.

 

Thanks Meeklo! Have you done this before? If so did any of your books come back with a lower grade?

 

Nope, that was the first time. I have just seen too many cases where high grade PGX comes back with a lower grade from CGC (or even PLOD) and lower grade PGX come back as high grade CGC.

 

I'd compare this to playing a scratch off…you won't know exactly what you will get. I just thought the price on them at the time was pretty good so I jumped on them and it luckily paid off. I probably will not play again…probably...

[mschmidt]

Yes I did but you have to put a note on them asking for the slab to be removed. They will not crack them open without special written permission from you.

 

Thanks Meeklo! Have you done this before? If so did any of your books come back with a lower grade?

 

I had a PGX 9.9 come back a CGC 9.6.

[COMICCROW]

Wow. I just never even thought to send them in the PGX SLABS. I've always carefully cracked mine.

[skypinkblu]

I sent in a GA GL #6, in a PGX slab, it had been a 4.5, came back qualified. Missing 1/2 a story page.

 

At first I couldn't figure out how...because I always count the pages...but then I realized I mailed it IN the slab.

 

Just happened.