cheetah Posted January 30, 2014 Author Share Posted January 30, 2014 It is mostly high grade though my lower limit usually starts at 7.0. I need to combine some spreadsheets to get the complete info, though. I will do that over the next few days and provide more details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blazingbob Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 Why does it matter what grade he is buying? Shouldn't a dealer know how to grade all grades? I feel that every dealer has his sweet spot of grading, the grade they overuse. If you find that sweet spot you will generally have very good dealings with that person. The Lions Den 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allen James Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 I have always found there is a big difference in the way some long time dealers grade high grade books as opposed to low to mid grade books since the adoption of the 10 point grading system. Many still look at a high grade book and eye ball it only looking for the obvious defects and not the defects that CGC would knock a book down on, such as non color breaking dings and folds. In their eyes a nice looking, truly high grade but not CGC 9.2-9.6, is still NM. The defects on low to mid grade are more obvious and thus easier to assign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blazingbob Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 CGC has been in business since 2000. They just started charging for notes in the last year. If a dealer doesn't know how CGC grades by now I'm not sure they ever will. That is not to say that I know exactly what they will grade a book but I have an idea. And if I'm off I generally will call to see if I missed something. The Lions Den 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
originalisbest Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 Overall it's easy to get a feel for what a dealer will be sending you, and knowing the price you've paid, whether you'll feel happy with the deal or not. Goes without saying that buying from blazingbob is a pleasure because 9 times out of 10, I feel a book graded by him as "X" will for sure be at least an "X" to me, if not a bit finer in appearance. He's simply a very strict grader. In the past (10+ years ago now) I ordered a few PCH books from Joe Nacca too, wasn't especially thrilled with his grades, I did feel at least a point or two lower than what he said, but was happy enough with the price at what I perceived the grade to be; the books were tough, and no resto, so all was good. Some dealers (blazingbob) you feel as though the books are already great, even if they're in the mail still and you haven't laid eyes on them yet. Some dealers (Joe Nacca) you order, and have to keep your fingers crossed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister O Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 I always knew Bob Storms was good at grading. Thanks for reinforcing my thoughts on his grading. I would have to take a look at Stephen Ritter down the road. Never dealing with someone makes a person leery, but this helps ease my mind a little. Thanks Cheetah for posting this information. (thumbs u Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allen James Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 CGC has been in business since 2000. They just started charging for notes in the last year. If a dealer doesn't know how CGC grades by now I'm not sure they ever will. That is not to say that I know exactly what they will grade a book but I have an idea. And if I'm off I generally will call to see if I missed something. I think everyone has an idea how CGC grades BUT there is still a grouping that don't care a thing about CGC. They don't submit, they don't buy graded books and they still sell a ton of raw books to folks that feel the same way. And to be honest I don't feel that is necessarily a bad thing as long as they are consistent in their grading and pricing and you know what you are getting. If you know Harley's 9.4 raw is only going to be an 8.0/8.5 CGC then it shouldn't be purchased in the hopes it can press out to his assigned grade. For me personally, when CGC first came along I spent hours and hours and submitted hundreds of books to learn how they graded and what counted off. A lot was pretty surprising because at that time I never even thought about some of those deductions on high grade books. It made me pretty successful at submissions but that's what I was looking for at the time. Some people adjust to change well, some not at all and some go along just enough to get by. I think as buyers we have some of the responsibility to know how someone else grades and then just be aware of that when we submit books. There's a lot of guys out there that are really fair though and easy to work with so I'll continue to buy from them just for that reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allen James Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 Very interesting and thought provoking thread! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foolkiller Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 Terrific thread. No surprise that Ritter and Storms are the closest to grading accuracy, as I've always believed they are two of the best raw graders out there. Kapelka, Verenault, Nick Beckett and Richard Evans are also very accurate graders. I think there are two different measures on grading, and I'm not sure that we all have to adhere to the CGC standard when doing so. When I'm contemplating submitting a book for grading, I do try and match as closely as I can to what I believe the CGC grade will be. When I'm buying for myself, I'm judging more what I think the grade/price is -- and I may not necessarily always punish or accept things that CGC would in determining whether to buy a book. Ultimately, I agree with October. It really comes down to price. If the price works, I really don't care what you call the book, high or low in terms of grade. If you are willing to pay a certain number, that's the only part of the thought process that matters, the rest becomes mental masturbation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sqeggs Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 Have you bought books from Joe Naaca or Richie Muchin, and how do they fit into these totals if so? I would figure Joe would be somewhere below Harley... Joe Nacca...I just bought a bunch of books from him and I'm not sure if 10% matched up with the reported grade. I used to buy books from him in the 90s, when he had a lot of scarce and under-priced stuff. I learned to expect 0.5 to 1.0 less in grade than he advertised. When I called him on it he said everyone else was under-grading...I don't buy from Joe no more... but back in the day he was a good source, as long as you knew how he graded. I think these days, at least in his eBay listings, he has been shying away from listing an exact grade and has a lot of hedging language in his descriptions. Maybe he's been burned by too many returns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sqeggs Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 It's a nice experiment, however, I wonder about the conclusions and how they are drawn, given unequal sample sizes and other assumptions. It would be interesting to see the experiment and raw data shared with a community of statisticians to get their opinions. One great free site to do so is http://stats.stackexchange.com/ Did he draw any conclusions? I think he just gave us the data. The raw data was not provided and I've seen plenty of possibly misleading inferences already drawn by thread participants. Not to say the experiment is complete or invalid by any means, but just raising questions before that happens. I'm fairly excited to see a valid conclusion. Understand that this was not an experiment, just reporting on the results of grading that I have collected. It wouldn't stand the scrutiny of a statistician since I've imparted a number of biases through the way I collect and my preference to spend my money on books I want rather than books that what would expand the grade range or number of books/dealer. If you wanted a more rigorous survey of dealer's grading skills, it would be pretty straight forward but expensive and would require the dealer's participation. Have them all grade the same 100 books and then send the books to CGC. That would remove a great deal of variability and make for more valid results. As far as conclusions, the data is there for people to interpret as they see fit. I think most folks expected Metropolis to be the worst graders when, in reality, they are pretty accurate - as long as you understand the most likely sources of over-grading. Jim Payette is often acknowledged as a superior grader and he rates about the same as Metro. Everyone always extolls the virtues of Bob Storms' grading and my limited experience is that they are right. Stephen Ritter seldom gets a mention as far as grading goes since he primarily sells graded books, yet he is a good source or accurately and/or under-graded books. I think your results are both interesting and indicative. I don't think it's critical whether they would pass a statistical difference in means test. It would take a lot of bias in your sample to reverse the ordering of Harley and Metro, for instance. Thanks again for compiling the data and making it public. (thumbs u Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamstrange Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 CGC has been in business since 2000. They just started charging for notes in the last year. If a dealer doesn't know how CGC grades by now I'm not sure they ever will. That is not to say that I know exactly what they will grade a book but I have an idea. And if I'm off I generally will call to see if I missed something. Many people have shown that it is possible to reverse engineer their grading and, like you, are reasonably accurate in predicting the grade a raw book will receive from CGC. There is no requirement that a dealer do that and customers should not expect a dealer to grade per CGC standards unless the dealer says that, to the best of their ability, they use a CGC-like approach. Even so, I still suggest that those that want a book in a certain grade that they buy the book in the slab. There is enough variability in how CGC grades their books that even if the dealer is correct in his assessment of the grade, it doesn't mean that CGC will give it that grade on that particular day. The Lions Den 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1koko Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 Terrific thread. No surprise that Ritter and Storms are the closest to grading accuracy, as I've always believed they are two of the best raw graders out there. Kapelka, Verenault, Nick Beckett and Richard Evans are also very accurate graders. I think there are two different measures on grading, and I'm not sure that we all have to adhere to the CGC standard when doing so. When I'm contemplating submitting a book for grading, I do try and match as closely as I can to what I believe the CGC grade will be. When I'm buying for myself, I'm judging more what I think the grade/price is -- and I may not necessarily always punish or accept things that CGC would in determining whether to buy a book. Ultimately, I agree with October. It really comes down to price. If the price works, I really don't care what you call the book, high or low in terms of grade. If you are willing to pay a certain number, that's the only part of the thought process that matters, the rest becomes mental masturbation. Based on the tables the closest grader to CGC is Metro at -0.18. From a buying point of view (with the big assumption that all dealers priced the same at each grading level) the best dealer to buy from would be Bob as he undergraded by a full increment level. I would have expected this to be the case as Bob specialises in SA and BA books and those who do are generally stricter than CGC when it comes to grading GA books. I have the same debate with Nick Beckett (Flaming Telepath) when comparing GA and SA books Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blazingbob Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 I always wondered where in the Overstreet price guide it clearly states that Golden age is graded looser than Silver/Bronze? I look on Page 175 of the Overstreet price guide grading definitions and I don't see it anywhere. But yet CGC grades looser. I also missed the paragraph where specific manufacturing defects and the idea that Mile highs with Color touch are unrestored is written. But hey, what do I know. I'm one of those guys who specializes in Silver/Bronze High grade. The Lions Den 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamstrange Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 While CGC appears to be broadly consistent with OVerstreet, they have never said they grade to Overstreet standards. But hey, what do I know. I'm one of those guys who specializes in Silver/Bronze High grade. I wish you had more GA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChasingKingKirby Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 I always wondered where in the Overstreet price guide it clearly states that Golden age is graded looser than Silver/Bronze? I look on Page 175 of the Overstreet price guide grading definitions and I don't see it anywhere. But yet CGC grades looser. I also missed the paragraph where specific manufacturing defects and the idea that Mile highs with Color touch are unrestored is written. But hey, what do I know. I'm one of those guys who specializes in Silver/Bronze High grade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timely Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 While CGC appears to be broadly consistent with OVerstreet, they have never said they grade to Overstreet standards. But hey, what do I know. I'm one of those guys who specializes in Silver/Bronze High grade. I wish you had more GA +1. Come on Bob, branch out already! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VintageComics Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 Even so, I still suggest that those that want a book in a certain grade that they buy the book in the slab. There is enough variability in how CGC grades their books that even if the dealer is correct in his assessment of the grade, it doesn't mean that CGC will give it that grade on that particular day. Most important point in the entire thread in terms of relative grading. If CGC can't get the CGC grade correct then certainly nobody else can. The Lions Den 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrBedrock Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 But hey, what do I know? Is this a rhetorical question, or should I answer it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blazingbob Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 I've bought a couple 100 original owner GA books to market lately so I'm not sure exactly why people assume I don't have Golden Age. If you are talking about the classic tough issues I am out there looking for them just as hard as anybody else out there. But typical of some of these thread comments GA collectors tend to assume that I just focus on Silver/Bronze. And it is also possible that when I get them I sell them . Museum pieces are nice but I prefer they sell every once in awhile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
