Comicopolis Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 Interesting thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcupine48 Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 Indeed. I like buying from Harley as he always seems to have the oddball rare stuff I want that others don't. Plus I bought my first over one hundred dollar book from him way back when This was a great read,great job.Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HRCostigan Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 Yes thank you very much for the thread! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bronze_rules Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 It's a nice experiment, however, I wonder about the conclusions and how they are drawn, given unequal sample sizes and other assumptions. It would be interesting to see the experiment and raw data shared with a community of statisticians to get their opinions. One great free site to do so is http://stats.stackexchange.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sqeggs Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 It's a nice experiment, however, I wonder about the conclusions and how they are drawn, given unequal sample sizes and other assumptions. It would be interesting to see the experiment and raw data shared with a community of statisticians to get their opinions. One great free site to do so is http://stats.stackexchange.com/ Did he draw any conclusions? I think he just gave us the data. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bronze_rules Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 It's a nice experiment, however, I wonder about the conclusions and how they are drawn, given unequal sample sizes and other assumptions. It would be interesting to see the experiment and raw data shared with a community of statisticians to get their opinions. One great free site to do so is http://stats.stackexchange.com/ Did he draw any conclusions? I think he just gave us the data. The raw data was not provided and I've seen plenty of possibly misleading inferences already drawn by thread participants. Not to say the experiment is complete or invalid by any means, but just raising questions before that happens. I'm fairly excited to see a valid conclusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tri-Color Brian Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 (edited) Have you bought books from Joe Naaca or Richie Muchin, and how do they fit into these totals if so? I would figure Joe would be somewhere below Harley... Edited January 29, 2014 by tricolorbrian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telerites Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 Thanks for sharing, Jeff. Some of the results surprise me, some don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehumantorch Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 Thanks Jeff. A very interesting thrdh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjpb Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 Very interesting and useful. I have to say, I'm surprised at how poorly Harley does -- maybe I'm the only one to be surprised! I've found his grading to be reasonably accurate. Perhaps he is ok in the 6.0 - 9.0 range, where I'm mostly buying, and off in the higher grade ranges -- assuming most of the books involved here were (or he claimed them to be!) in the higher grades. I'm primarily a 5.0 to 8.0 collector and have always found Harley to be pretty fair.....but then, I'm not submitting a lot of books to CGC. GOD BLESS... -jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u i've only bought three books in recent years from Harley, Atlas in the 4.0-5.0 range. I thought one was spot on, one maybe one grade off, and one was only listed as a a VG, but had brittleness at the spine and I returned it. On the other hand he was my main source in the 90s, and I was generally happy with his grading. The few that I sent off years later for slabbing came back either at or higher than his grade, generally mid-grade PCH. Perhaps he is weaker in the higher grades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjum12 Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 Very interesting and useful. I have to say, I'm surprised at how poorly Harley does -- maybe I'm the only one to be surprised! I've found his grading to be reasonably accurate. Perhaps he is ok in the 6.0 - 9.0 range, where I'm mostly buying, and off in the higher grade ranges -- assuming most of the books involved here were (or he claimed them to be!) in the higher grades. I'm primarily a 5.0 to 8.0 collector and have always found Harley to be pretty fair.....but then, I'm not submitting a lot of books to CGC. GOD BLESS... -jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u i've only bought three books in recent years from Harley, Atlas in the 4.0-5.0 range. I thought one was spot on, one maybe one grade off, and one was only listed as a a VG, but had brittleness at the spine and I returned it. On the other hand he was my main source in the 90s, and I was generally happy with his grading. The few that I sent off years later for slabbing came back either at or higher than his grade, generally mid-grade PCH. Perhaps he is weaker in the higher grades. ...many dealers are..... they know that pre '60 books in VF or better are a real beyotch to restock. Personally, I prefer to see the accurate grade with a premium price attached.... I don't feel like I'm being played with that approach. GOD BLESS... -jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u P.S. Some of the older dealers trulty believe THEIR grading is right and CGC is wrong. The Lions Den 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheetah Posted January 30, 2014 Author Share Posted January 30, 2014 It's a nice experiment, however, I wonder about the conclusions and how they are drawn, given unequal sample sizes and other assumptions. It would be interesting to see the experiment and raw data shared with a community of statisticians to get their opinions. One great free site to do so is http://stats.stackexchange.com/ Did he draw any conclusions? I think he just gave us the data. The raw data was not provided and I've seen plenty of possibly misleading inferences already drawn by thread participants. Not to say the experiment is complete or invalid by any means, but just raising questions before that happens. I'm fairly excited to see a valid conclusion. Understand that this was not an experiment, just reporting on the results of grading that I have collected. It wouldn't stand the scrutiny of a statistician since I've imparted a number of biases through the way I collect and my preference to spend my money on books I want rather than books that what would expand the grade range or number of books/dealer. If you wanted a more rigorous survey of dealer's grading skills, it would be pretty straight forward but expensive and would require the dealer's participation. Have them all grade the same 100 books and then send the books to CGC. That would remove a great deal of variability and make for more valid results. As far as conclusions, the data is there for people to interpret as they see fit. I think most folks expected Metropolis to be the worst graders when, in reality, they are pretty accurate - as long as you understand the most likely sources of over-grading. Jim Payette is often acknowledged as a superior grader and he rates about the same as Metro. Everyone always extolls the virtues of Bob Storms' grading and my limited experience is that they are right. Stephen Ritter seldom gets a mention as far as grading goes since he primarily sells graded books, yet he is a good source or accurately and/or under-graded books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheetah Posted January 30, 2014 Author Share Posted January 30, 2014 Have you bought books from Joe Naaca or Richie Muchin, and how do they fit into these totals if so? I would figure Joe would be somewhere below Harley... Only a few from Muchin and his grades have been more accurate than I have been led to believe. Like many others, he does not hammer books for stains like CGC does. If you see one of his books listed with a stain, go ahead and deduct 2.0 from the grade. Same goes for Metro. Joe Nacca...I just bought a bunch of books from him and I'm not sure if 10% matched up with the reported grade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrBedrock Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 Stephen Ritter seldom gets a mention as far as grading goes since he primarily sells graded books, yet he is a good source or accurately and/or under-graded books. You've let the cat out of the bag. Now everyone knows the secret. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamstrange Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 If you wanted a more rigorous survey of dealer's grading skills, it would be pretty straight forward but expensive and would require the dealer's participation. Have them all grade the same 100 books and then send the books to CGC. That would remove a great deal of variability and make for more valid results. But then they might grade differently knowing they were being observed. I don't believe that you can draw, with confidence, statistically valid inferences from the data but some might still find a useful addition to their own independent observation. I enjoyed seeing the results. (thumbs u In fairness to the dealers, CGC publishes no standard and offers no training class in their grading method. What minimal notes they record about defects are only available for a fee. The only way for a dealer to approximate the CGC grade of a raw copy is to try and reverse engineer CGC standards by looking at copies already slabbed, submitting raw books and talking with others who have done the same. I don't think any of these dealers suggests that their grading is equal to CGC's. The only way a purchaser of a comic book is certain to get a copy in a particular grade is to purchase one already in a slab. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tri-Color Brian Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 Have you bought books from Joe Naaca or Richie Muchin, and how do they fit into these totals if so? I would figure Joe would be somewhere below Harley... Joe Nacca...I just bought a bunch of books from him and I'm not sure if 10% matched up with the reported grade. I used to buy books from him in the 90s, when he had a lot of scarce and under-priced stuff. I learned to expect 0.5 to 1.0 less in grade than he advertised. When I called him on it he said everyone else was under-grading...I don't buy from Joe no more... but back in the day he was a good source, as long as you knew how he graded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weird Paper Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 But then they might grade differently knowing they were being observed. . Schrodingers grades? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weird Paper Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 But then they might grade differently knowing they were being observed. . Schrodingers grades? The Copenhagen interpretation, that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vision75 Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 (edited) Here are the Average GI for each dealer: Interesting work. Much thanks for compiling. Edited January 30, 2014 by Vision75 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keever Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 Great info Jeff. Re: Joe Nacca, yes I suspect he would come in below Harley. I did one deal with him last year for 15 books, sent 10 back, kept and had Matt press the other 5, sent them to CGC and only 2 of the 5 made grade, one had been overgraded by 2 increments, and two were off by 3 increments even after pressing. By your method, his average overgrading on the five books was 1.6 increments, and those were the five best out of the fifteen I had initially purchased. In his defense, he was easy to work with, friendly, and no problem with the refund on the ten I sent back - perhaps he is used to it. Is it fair to assume that you are buying primarily high grade stuff? It might help us if you gave us the actual median grades per the seller and per CGC (if you have that data assembled) so we know if you are buying different condition level books from different dealers, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
