Heritage May 2014

[Bronty]

Ouch!

 

500?

[heartened]

So, that settles the definition of "1st" - -but as far as value goes, the hobby's laws of supply and demand can dictate whatever it wants in the marketplace to which is more valuable, so... sure #181 is worth more than #180 because more people want it.

 

Agreed. No question that Hulk #180 is Wolverine's true first appearance. But, there is no law that says that the first appearance has to be worth more than the second. In comics, Hulk #181 is worth more than Hulk #180 (more memorable, more Wolverine and he's on the cover), UXM #94 is worth more than GSXM #1 (harder to find in grade), UXM #266 is worth more than X-Men Annual #14 (the latter features Gambit, but the former has more Gambit and he's on the cover), and I'm sure there are other examples. In OA, Hari's Marvel house ad/Comics Journal cover featuring Elektra preceded the publication of DD #168 by months, but the latter is what everyone remembers and is part of the main title and is therefore more coveted and valuable (even though you can't even see Elektra's features!)

 

 

I think for comic art however this #180 page would rival if not possibly beat the cover of #181 or the title splash page of #181 for it's status as the 1st rendering of the character published, and could easily be coveted more than any other page within #181.

 

It might be more coveted than any of the #181 interiors (the splash at least would give it a run for its money, though), but it wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell of beating the #181 cover. One panel of Wolverine, even if it is the first ever panel, is not going to even come close to topping the character's first cover appearance, which happens to be one of the most iconic, recognizable, beloved covers in all of the hobby. That I can state with absolute metaphysical certainty.

 

Excellent points, Gene. My Elektra cover is beyond a doubt the first appearance of Elektra by months. The hobby has all these artificial valuations. Full appearances are more important than cameos, main run better than a side run, main title cover better than a fanzine cover (as in my Elektra case). If we want to be pure, then my Elektra cover should dwarf the DD 168 cover from an OA standpoint. But, we all know the world we live in, and that is just not the case. Thus, Hulk 181 beats Hulk 180, period. That being said, I agree with you that a couple pages in 181 would beat the 180 page, and then the rest of the 181 pages would follow. And the 181 cover blows it all out of the water. But, if all of those existed, would anyone still realistically consider this anywhere near the prices we're talking about? Realistically, this should be a 100K page at most. Unless you're thinking that the other big apperances are also over 100K per page now (JIM 83, etc.). Possibly, but there's been absolutely no track record to base this on. This might be the time for those prices, but maybe it isn't. We will see. I wouldn't be surprised either way, but I am surprised about all the conjecture at these levels.

 

You've completely edited the post I was responding to That's what I get for not quoting

 

 

Hey buddy, I didn't edit anything. Maybe someone else did. And, also, I don't think you can sit back and compare this to "what else you'd like to have at that price". Sure many would want this over the TOS 84, but many would want it the other way around. Apples and oranges, I'm afraid. Nope, for this you have to compare across first-appearance panel pages. This might be the top of the heap for some collectors, but not for kids of the 60s and earlier. Again, I'm not saying I have a clue where this will end up, just stating that the numbers being bantered about far exceed any logical extrapolation up to this point.

 

Really? I could have sworn the post read differently when first posted. No matter and no disrespect.

 

Yes its certainly apples and oranges However, so are marvel 1 pages!

 

It may not make sense I just personally see this at above the TOS 84 level, based on precisely nothing except my Buttquote .**

 

 

** valuation pulled out of my butt

 

Hey Bronty, I certainly didn't edit anything I wrote (if I did, it usually says at the bottom "edited by.... ". Are you saying something else other than my words were edited? If so, just point where, as I just "quoted" and started writing. Sounds like there's something different in there that I'm not seeing.

 

[Bronty]

Must have been my mistake Hari

[Lago32]

I have to say I am really surprised at how much rationalizing-down a lot of folks are doing on the 180 page in terms of both value and desirability compared to H181, GSX1, and X1 pages.

 

I agree that throwing out huge dollar value estimates is largely subjective/speculative and not really productive but still....c'mon guys...can we not all agree that the 180 page significantly outshines interior pages from any of those issues mentioned? I have to re-state the obvious......it is the very first single-page appearance of the 3rd or 4th most popular super-hero of ALL time and the biggest comic creation of the past 40 years....and is continuing to grow in popularity. There is nothing to compare it to as the first app art to Supes, Bats and Spidey either no longer exists or is locked up in a musuem.

 

Wolverine is pure gold from a brand perspective and the final hammer price on this first app page will reflect it in spades imho.

[heartened]

That's the reason I asked why people are pulling 100s of thousands of dollars for this page as guesses out of thin air. Are we predicting the market or trying to create it here?? Let's be careful not to do the latter. What are pages from JIM 83, TOS 39, X-Men 1 worth?? That's the range we should be talking about. Key characters with large fanbases. Agreed some may argue Wolverine gets a premium, but I think that's debatable.

 

I am sure that almost every OA collector who started collecting in the '90s or earlier is cringing at the fact that a Herb Trimpe page from 1974 is about to blow all known records for Kirby art out of the water, just as they remain mortified that the top 5 or 6 biggest recorded sales for American OA include a McSpidey cover and two DKR pieces! I think the fact is, though, that enough time has passed for Bronze/Copper Age to have become the driving nostalgic force in the OA market, especially among the under-45 crowd.

 

This may be a controversial statement: while there are collectors, big collectors even, in their 30s and early 40s who do collect Silver Age and older art, I sincerely doubt that Silver Age gets them as passionate and pumped up as Bronze/Copper Age. For proof of that, just look at you and me. We both appreciate comics history and all the important artists, many of which are represented in our respective collections. But, if I look at what really jazzes me up the most, I'd say it's the period from roughly 1973 to 1987 (I started collecting in 1983, but discovered much of the earlier material through back issues and reprints), while clearly the '80s hold a special position for you above all other decades. We and our peers want the Kirby, Ditko, Romita, Buscema, etc. examples as well, because we appreciate the history and those artists' contributions to everything that came later (not to mention some of the most iconic images, many of which happen to be among the hobby's biggest trophies, come from those artists). But, when I look at the big collectors who are sub-45/46 in age (with a couple of notable exceptions like Fishler), I strongly suspect that almost all of their respective nostalgic sweet spots and eras are, in their heart of hearts, either Bronze Age or Copper Age.

 

And, that's why I think this page will exceed, probably by a fair amount, pages from those Silver Age books you mentioned. Sure, many the older collectors/dealers will balk at paying that much for a Herb Trimpe Hulk page from the '70s. But I don't think some of the younger guns will have those qualms. Maybe talk of rivaling the DKR #3 splash and such was premature in light of allegations that the #181 pages might still be out there. But, I'm going to stick with my belief that this one will sell for at least $200K. Even if it somehow manages to miss that mark, I'm confident it will sell for closer to $200K than $100K.

 

Agree with all this, Gene. The only thing I'll add though is that these things go in waves. As we age, the Bronze/Copper market will come back down a bit I think. Over time, all of this will settle into its rightful place in the grand scheme of things, and when nostalgia comes out of it (as it has for the us on the 60s and earlier stuff - we look at it as historic not nostalgic), then the true valuations will be seen. In other words, 20 years from now what's more valuable to the then-current collectors? Not sure I know the answer.

 

And, as for the Hulk 180 and 181 stuff, more pages available means prices come down. Didn't the first Sin City interior page to hit the market go for 50K? Must have been at least 5-7 years ago. And now you can get a cover with Miho for 17K. I know it's not a great comparison, but it's an example how supply changes everything. In some respect this is also true for Hulk 180/181/182. I think many people see appearances from any three of those issues as essentially the first appearance of the character. I suspect FF 48/49/50 would be the same if they were ever found.

 

 

[heartened]

Myself for example. I like wolverine, but I don't like the x-men much at all.

 

...but I bet you liked Alpha Flight a lot. Damn Canadians!

 

Hey don't knock Alpha Flight! I loved that book growing up too (and I'm not Canadian, obviously

 

[Bronty]

Oh and Gene - yes the idea that there may be a Trimpe sale above Kirby levels is.... interesting!

[heartened]

I have to say I am really surprised at how much rationalizing-down a lot of folks are doing on the 180 page in terms of both value and desirability compared to H181, GSX1, and X1 pages.

 

I agree that throwing out huge dollar value estimates is largely subjective/speculative and not really productive but still....c'mon guys...can we not all agree that the 180 page significantly outshines interior pages from any of those issues mentioned? I have to re-state the obvious......it is the very first single-page appearance of the 3rd or 4th most popular super-hero of ALL time and the biggest comic creation of the past 40 years....and is continuing to grow in popularity. There is nothing to compare it to as the first app art to Supes, Bats and Spidey either no longer exists or is locked up in a musuem.

 

Wolverine is pure gold from a brand perspective and the final hammer price on this first app page will reflect it in spades imho.

 

Hey,

 

Totally agree. This may go anywhere. Not trying to downplay it, just contributing to the discussion. I do think that if this goes up into the stratosphere that all major first appearance pages will be over 100K. X-Men 1 pages, etc. etc. Right now they've sat at the 50-60K range.

 

 

[Mephisto]

Hmm, could these kind of rumors keep the deep pockets from bidding as high with hopes of a 181 splash coming out?

 

(probably not)

 

Uh, this would absolutely hurt the price of the 180 page. Just imagine if only one X-Men 1 page existed, one FF 5 page, etc. etc. That one remaining page would be exponentially more valuable. If 181 exists, then about 20-25 people get to have an early Wolvie page; right now people have to fight for the one and only page (excluding the 182 page). That's a very big difference.

 

Forgive my ignorance since I already admitted that historical first appearance appeal is not burned as strongly in my DNA as it is with some, but I thought the main appeal to this page is that it is THE first appearance. So how would all the pages from 181 being available change that?

 

Scott

 

In the same way that Hulk 181 is quite a bit more expensive than Hulk 180. At the end off the day, Hulk 180 is not the money shot - pages from Hulk 181 would be. I realize this is a just not true from an OA standpoint, as the 180 image obviously came earlier. But first appearance OA collectors collect art from the first appearance books, and in this case that book is Hulk 181.

 

I would much rather have the 180 page over any panel pages from 181. With this art you are talking about his VERY first appearance within a story (and not some preview book like in the 80's or 90's), 180 is a very relevant book with collectors and many go out and get both books. Hulk 180 versus Hulk 181 has long been a great debate in the comic community. Which came first the chicken or the egg? Hulk 181 is not only big because he's in the full story but because he's on the cover. With high end books being sealed in CGC cases over the past decade and a half, covers become even more relevant to a books desirability. I could see why some may prefer a page from 181 due to pages with battle scenes but the 180 panel is just so historic and makes 180 a relevant book which if you remove that last panel it's just another book from the Hulk run. I still remember that panel being used on the back of Wolverine's 1993 Marvel Masterpieces Card while the legendary 1992 set features the cover to Hulk 181 on the back.

[Mephisto]

 

 

 

Does anyone have any idea of what the GSXM #1 first appearance pages (and Wolverine pages, for that matter) would fetch these days? Just curious to know how much they would fetch vs. this Hulk #180 page.

 

You should INQUIRE with the Donnellys. They have/had the very first page to feature Wolverine from GSXM 1.

[drdroom]

 

 

 

Does anyone have any idea of what the GSXM #1 first appearance pages (and Wolverine pages, for that matter) would fetch these days? Just curious to know how much they would fetch vs. this Hulk #180 page.

 

You should INQUIRE with the Donnellys. They have/had the very first page to feature Wolverine from GSXM 1.

 

Thank you for your inquiry on this historic page. We'd would be pleased to sell you this wonderful work of art for a very reasonable 1.75 Million dollars US, payable with cashiers check or gold bullion.

[DeadpoolJr.]

 

 

 

Does anyone have any idea of what the GSXM #1 first appearance pages (and Wolverine pages, for that matter) would fetch these days? Just curious to know how much they would fetch vs. this Hulk #180 page.

 

You should INQUIRE with the Donnellys. They have/had the very first page to feature Wolverine from GSXM 1.

 

Thank you for your inquiry on this historic page. We'd would be pleased to sell you this wonderful work of art for a very reasonable 1.75 Million dollars US, payable with cashiers check or gold bullion.

 

It would be 1/3 of that.

[drdroom]

 

 

 

Does anyone have any idea of what the GSXM #1 first appearance pages (and Wolverine pages, for that matter) would fetch these days? Just curious to know how much they would fetch vs. this Hulk #180 page.

 

You should INQUIRE with the Donnellys. They have/had the very first page to feature Wolverine from GSXM 1.

 

Thank you for your inquiry on this historic page. We'd would be pleased to sell you this wonderful work of art for a very reasonable 1.75 Million dollars US, payable with cashiers check or gold bullion.

 

It would be 1/3 of that.

 

Yes, in reality that sounds about right.

[Ares]

 

 

 

Does anyone have any idea of what the GSXM #1 first appearance pages (and Wolverine pages, for that matter) would fetch these days? Just curious to know how much they would fetch vs. this Hulk #180 page.

 

You should INQUIRE with the Donnellys. They have/had the very first page to feature Wolverine from GSXM 1.

 

Thank you for your inquiry on this historic page. We'd would be pleased to sell you this wonderful work of art for a very reasonable 1.75 Million dollars US, payable with cashiers check or gold bullion.

 

It would be 1/3 of that.

 

 

Yes, in reality that sounds about right.

Or in order to get it you must trade in your Action Comics #1 OA cover

[Bronty]

Ah come on guys. a) they are members and b) anyone is free to ask whatever price they want If we don't like prices or trades from dealers, we don't have to pay them.

[delekkerste]

You should INQUIRE with the Donnellys. They have/had the very first page to feature Wolverine from GSXM 1.

 

Yeah, they traded it away in one of the more bizarre deals I've personally been witness to.

[delekkerste]

Myself for example. I like wolverine, but I don't like the x-men much at all.

 

...but I bet you liked Alpha Flight a lot. Damn Canadians!

 

Hey don't knock Alpha Flight! I loved that book growing up too (and I'm not Canadian, obviously

 

Hey, I liked Alpha Flight too, but I liked the X-Men more! Only a Canadian could love Wolverine and Alpha Flight, but not the X-Men in general.

[Bronty]

Myself for example. I like wolverine, but I don't like the x-men much at all.

 

...but I bet you liked Alpha Flight a lot. Damn Canadians!

 

Hey don't knock Alpha Flight! I loved that book growing up too (and I'm not Canadian, obviously

 

Hey, I liked Alpha Flight too, but I liked the X-Men more! Only a Canadian could love Wolverine and Alpha Flight, but not the X-Men in general.

 

Well now you're putting words in my mouth! (albeit funny ones!)

 

I didn't say I loved Alpha Flight! My exact words were "it wasn't that bad"

 

That being said... maybe alpha flight WAS superior

 

It had everything good that the x-men title had (byrne art) and none of the bad (soap opera)

 

Sometimes, when I am flipping channels and the Young and the Restless comes on, I get a urge to read x-men

[batman_fan]

Myself for example. I like wolverine, but I don't like the x-men much at all.

 

...but I bet you liked Alpha Flight a lot. Damn Canadians!

 

Hey don't knock Alpha Flight! I loved that book growing up too (and I'm not Canadian, obviously

 

Count me in too, I loved the first several issues and would love to own a nice splash with Puck in it. (thumbs u

[dem1138]

You should INQUIRE with the Donnellys. They have/had the very first page to feature Wolverine from GSXM 1.

 

Yeah, they traded it away in one of the more bizarre deals I've personally been witness to.

 

Yes it was one of the few times in life where I witnessed alchemy in person.