Heritage May 2014

[delekkerste]

So, that settles the definition of "1st" - -but as far as value goes, the hobby's laws of supply and demand can dictate whatever it wants in the marketplace to which is more valuable, so... sure #181 is worth more than #180 because more people want it.

 

Agreed. No question that Hulk #180 is Wolverine's true first appearance. But, there is no law that says that the first appearance has to be worth more than the second. In comics, Hulk #181 is worth more than Hulk #180 (more memorable, more Wolverine and he's on the cover), UXM #94 is worth more than GSXM #1 (harder to find in grade), UXM #266 is worth more than X-Men Annual #14 (the latter features Gambit's true 1st appearance, but the former has more Gambit and he's on the cover), and I'm sure there are other examples. In OA, Hari's Marvel house ad/Comics Journal cover featuring Elektra preceded the publication of DD #168 by months, but the latter is what everyone remembers and is part of the main title and is therefore more coveted and valuable (even though you can't even see Elektra's features!)

 

 

I think for comic art however this #180 page would rival if not possibly beat the cover of #181 or the title splash page of #181 for it's status as the 1st rendering of the character published, and could easily be coveted more than any other page within #181.

 

It might be more coveted than any of the #181 interiors (the splash at least would give it a run for its money, though), but it wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell of beating the #181 cover. One panel of Wolverine, even if it is the first ever panel, is not going to even come close to topping the character's first cover appearance, which happens to be one of the most iconic, recognizable, beloved covers in all of the hobby. That I can state with absolute metaphysical certainty.

[stinkininkin]

...the 180 image obviously came earlier.

 

But looking at the #180 OA page now, it is quite evident...the hobby got it wrong. This is unquestionably the first appearance of Wolverine.

 

You're right... it should be the 100% undisputed truth, Nexus!

 

Even more so the truth for the Original Art sector, but still I'd maintain the same definition of "1st" being nothing short of sequentially and chronologically the first... and #180 comes before #181.

 

It could be different if the appearance was vague with the character lurking in the shadows; a part of the body is shown; the character is mentioned in name only; the character is yet to be named or identity revealed; or anything cryptic.

 

Fact of the matter is this is a full appearance in character name and design, it doesn't matter if it's on a last page teasing into the next issue.

 

So, that settles the definition of "1st" - -but as far as value goes, the hobby's laws of supply and demand can dictate whatever it wants in the marketplace to which is more valuable, so... sure #181 is worth more than #180 because more people want it.

 

I think for comic art however this #180 page would rival if not possibly beat the cover of #181 or the title splash page of #181 for it's status as the 1st rendering of the character published, and could easily be coveted more than any other page within #181.

 

You had me until you compared the 180 splash to the cover of 181. I got two words for you--FAT CHANCE!

 

Scott

[Bronty]

Yeah. Not.. even.. close.

[AKA Rick]

Personally as a collector I'd prefer the last page of #180 over the cover of #181. So, if someone were to offer me both for free with the condition that I could and would never sell it, and it's just for personal possession, I'd pick the #180. Again, it's what I like personally.

 

I'm not disputing the value nor market demand or popular opinion, that if both were to go to auction, the #181 cover may and would likely beat the #180 page, but I'm a fan of history and to me to get the 1st rendering published would be awesome.

 

FYI - I'm not even close to being a contender to bid on this piece. I couldn't even afford the sales tax on it!

 

 

[heartened]

181 cover would beat the 180 panel...someone want to run a poll...to me, no contest

 

Correct, no contest. 181 cover is etched into every comic book hobbyists mind. Undoubtedly the cover would command much more than this end-page.

 

GS X-Men 1 and X-Men 94 pages with key appearances/action have not sold in a long time. But prior to the hype and discussion of this Wolvie page, I think most would have considered 20-30K for those pages. That's the reason I asked why people are pulling 100s of thousands of dollars for this page as guesses out of thin air. Are we predicting the market or trying to create it here?? Let's be careful not to do the latter. What are pages from JIM 83, TOS 39, X-Men 1 worth?? That's the range we should be talking about. Key characters with large fanbases. Agreed some may argue Wolverine gets a premium, but I think that's debatable.

 

[heartened]

Personally as a collector I'd prefer the last page of #180 over the cover of #181. So, if someone were to offer me both for free with the condition that I could and would never sell it, and it's just for personal possession, I'd pick the #180. Again, it's what I like personally.

 

I'm not disputing the value nor market demand or popular opinion, that if both were to go to auction, the #181 cover may and would likely beat the #180 page, but I'm a fan of history and to me to get the 1st rendering published would be awesome.

 

FYI - I'm not even close to being a contender to bid on this piece. I couldn't even afford the sales tax on it!

 

 

If I remember correctly, Romita's first renderings for Wolverine didn't garner a whole lot of interest. You should have gotten those

 

[heartened]

So, that settles the definition of "1st" - -but as far as value goes, the hobby's laws of supply and demand can dictate whatever it wants in the marketplace to which is more valuable, so... sure #181 is worth more than #180 because more people want it.

 

Agreed. No question that Hulk #180 is Wolverine's true first appearance. But, there is no law that says that the first appearance has to be worth more than the second. In comics, Hulk #181 is worth more than Hulk #180 (more memorable, more Wolverine and he's on the cover), UXM #94 is worth more than GSXM #1 (harder to find in grade), UXM #266 is worth more than X-Men Annual #14 (the latter features Gambit, but the former has more Gambit and he's on the cover), and I'm sure there are other examples. In OA, Hari's Marvel house ad/Comics Journal cover featuring Elektra preceded the publication of DD #168 by months, but the latter is what everyone remembers and is part of the main title and is therefore more coveted and valuable (even though you can't even see Elektra's features!)

 

 

I think for comic art however this #180 page would rival if not possibly beat the cover of #181 or the title splash page of #181 for it's status as the 1st rendering of the character published, and could easily be coveted more than any other page within #181.

 

It might be more coveted than any of the #181 interiors (the splash at least would give it a run for its money, though), but it wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell of beating the #181 cover. One panel of Wolverine, even if it is the first ever panel, is not going to even come close to topping the character's first cover appearance, which happens to be one of the most iconic, recognizable, beloved covers in all of the hobby. That I can state with absolute metaphysical certainty.

 

Excellent points, Gene. My Elektra cover is beyond a doubt the first appearance of Elektra by months. The hobby has all these artificial valuations. Full appearances are more important than cameos, main run better than a side run, main title cover better than a fanzine cover (as in my Elektra case). If we want to be pure, then my Elektra cover should dwarf the DD 168 cover from an OA standpoint. But, we all know the world we live in, and that is just not the case. Thus, Hulk 181 beats Hulk 180, period. That being said, I agree with you that a couple pages in 181 would beat the 180 page, and then the rest of the 181 pages would follow. And the 181 cover blows it all out of the water. But, if all of those existed, would anyone still realistically consider this anywhere near the prices we're talking about? Realistically, this should be a 100K page at most. Unless you're thinking that the other big apperances are also over 100K per page now (JIM 83, etc.). Possibly, but there's been absolutely no track record to base this on. This might be the time for those prices, but maybe it isn't. We will see. I wouldn't be surprised either way, but I am surprised about all the conjecture at these levels.

 

[Bronty]

Its tremendously difficult to judge and I get your word of warning, but at the same time this is the standout character introduction of the bronze age and in fact, the last 50 years.

 

Also, and I know this is stating the obvious, but the top end pages have charged ahead of late. So I think recent comparables are more powerful comparisons than to use than older comparables (even where the content is more analagous!).

 

For example - I like the TOS 84 cover, but does anyone in their right mind think that should be worth more than the Hulk 180 page? Or a panel silver surfer page that sold in that same 150k range? Or a nice but not key romita 2x spidey in the same range... I can't see it. Based on some of these sales in the 150 range, I just don't see how it does less than 150. I think 250 or at most 300 is a "sensible" ceiling but then again with this kind of piece you never know. I'd call it 150-250+ because when you look at the greater body of recent comparables beyond just the really analagous examples, that's just where it fits into the hierarchy. IMHO.

[Bronty]

So, that settles the definition of "1st" - -but as far as value goes, the hobby's laws of supply and demand can dictate whatever it wants in the marketplace to which is more valuable, so... sure #181 is worth more than #180 because more people want it.

 

Agreed. No question that Hulk #180 is Wolverine's true first appearance. But, there is no law that says that the first appearance has to be worth more than the second. In comics, Hulk #181 is worth more than Hulk #180 (more memorable, more Wolverine and he's on the cover), UXM #94 is worth more than GSXM #1 (harder to find in grade), UXM #266 is worth more than X-Men Annual #14 (the latter features Gambit, but the former has more Gambit and he's on the cover), and I'm sure there are other examples. In OA, Hari's Marvel house ad/Comics Journal cover featuring Elektra preceded the publication of DD #168 by months, but the latter is what everyone remembers and is part of the main title and is therefore more coveted and valuable (even though you can't even see Elektra's features!)

 

 

I think for comic art however this #180 page would rival if not possibly beat the cover of #181 or the title splash page of #181 for it's status as the 1st rendering of the character published, and could easily be coveted more than any other page within #181.

 

It might be more coveted than any of the #181 interiors (the splash at least would give it a run for its money, though), but it wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell of beating the #181 cover. One panel of Wolverine, even if it is the first ever panel, is not going to even come close to topping the character's first cover appearance, which happens to be one of the most iconic, recognizable, beloved covers in all of the hobby. That I can state with absolute metaphysical certainty.

 

Excellent points, Gene. My Elektra cover is beyond a doubt the first appearance of Elektra by months. The hobby has all these artificial valuations. Full appearances are more important than cameos, main run better than a side run, main title cover better than a fanzine cover (as in my Elektra case). If we want to be pure, then my Elektra cover should dwarf the DD 168 cover from an OA standpoint. But, we all know the world we live in, and that is just not the case. Thus, Hulk 181 beats Hulk 180, period. That being said, I agree with you that a couple pages in 181 would beat the 180 page, and then the rest of the 181 pages would follow. And the 181 cover blows it all out of the water. But, if all of those existed, would anyone still realistically consider this anywhere near the prices we're talking about? Realistically, this should be a 100K page at most. Unless you're thinking that the other big apperances are also over 100K per page now (JIM 83, etc.). Possibly, but there's been absolutely no track record to base this on. This might be the time for those prices, but maybe it isn't. We will see. I wouldn't be surprised either way, but I am surprised about all the conjecture at these levels.

 

You've completely edited the post I was responding to That's what I get for not quoting

 

 

[drdroom]

181 cover would beat the 180 panel...someone want to run a poll...to me, no contest

 

Correct, no contest. 181 cover is etched into every comic book hobbyists mind. Undoubtedly the cover would command much more than this end-page.

 

GS X-Men 1 and X-Men 94 pages with key appearances/action have not sold in a long time. But prior to the hype and discussion of this Wolvie page, I think most would have considered 20-30K for those pages. That's the reason I asked why people are pulling 100s of thousands of dollars for this page as guesses out of thin air. Are we predicting the market or trying to create it here?? Let's be careful not to do the latter. What are pages from JIM 83, TOS 39, X-Men 1 worth?? That's the range we should be talking about. Key characters with large fanbases. Agreed some may argue Wolverine gets a premium, but I think that's debatable.

 

I don't know why, but I think Wolverine gets a premium...

[Bronty]

The 180/181/182 stuff - I agree. There are all sorts of reasons but one other reason that hasn't been discussed is that this is really the only solo wolverine story for almost a full decade. Very few other characters have that dynamic. If you like Thor, yes you want JIM 83 but you can also pick pages from 84-126, etc.

 

A JIM 84 splash you might consider as good as some of the JIM 83 pages.

 

If you like wolverine, you have this story and then a bunch of team stories which just aren't the same.

 

Myself for example. I like wolverine, but I don't like the x-men much at all. I always found that book to be a bit of a teenage soap opera with the love triangles with jean and that almost taking precedent over the superhero stuff. No disrespect to those that enjoy the xmen but it was never for me, apart from the byrne art which I liked.

 

So. For some whose tastes mirror mine (and whose budget exceeds mine, sadly) there really isn't another wolverine story I'd "love" a page from until you get to Wolverine LS #1.

[heartened]

181 cover would beat the 180 panel...someone want to run a poll...to me, no contest

 

Correct, no contest. 181 cover is etched into every comic book hobbyists mind. Undoubtedly the cover would command much more than this end-page.

 

GS X-Men 1 and X-Men 94 pages with key appearances/action have not sold in a long time. But prior to the hype and discussion of this Wolvie page, I think most would have considered 20-30K for those pages. That's the reason I asked why people are pulling 100s of thousands of dollars for this page as guesses out of thin air. Are we predicting the market or trying to create it here?? Let's be careful not to do the latter. What are pages from JIM 83, TOS 39, X-Men 1 worth?? That's the range we should be talking about. Key characters with large fanbases. Agreed some may argue Wolverine gets a premium, but I think that's debatable.

 

I don't know why, but I think Wolverine gets a premium...

 

The reason you don't know why is because it's a function of our age Wolverine gets a bump because 70s and 80s is hot right now. There is absolutely no reason that the first Wolvie should be worth more than the first Magneto, Doom, Thor, Hulk, Iron, etc. etc. And let's not forget what the Marvel Comics 1 page sold for. Is that fair by comparison? That currently holds the record for the highest price for a first-appearance page, I think.

 

[heartened]

So, that settles the definition of "1st" - -but as far as value goes, the hobby's laws of supply and demand can dictate whatever it wants in the marketplace to which is more valuable, so... sure #181 is worth more than #180 because more people want it.

 

Agreed. No question that Hulk #180 is Wolverine's true first appearance. But, there is no law that says that the first appearance has to be worth more than the second. In comics, Hulk #181 is worth more than Hulk #180 (more memorable, more Wolverine and he's on the cover), UXM #94 is worth more than GSXM #1 (harder to find in grade), UXM #266 is worth more than X-Men Annual #14 (the latter features Gambit, but the former has more Gambit and he's on the cover), and I'm sure there are other examples. In OA, Hari's Marvel house ad/Comics Journal cover featuring Elektra preceded the publication of DD #168 by months, but the latter is what everyone remembers and is part of the main title and is therefore more coveted and valuable (even though you can't even see Elektra's features!)

 

 

I think for comic art however this #180 page would rival if not possibly beat the cover of #181 or the title splash page of #181 for it's status as the 1st rendering of the character published, and could easily be coveted more than any other page within #181.

 

It might be more coveted than any of the #181 interiors (the splash at least would give it a run for its money, though), but it wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell of beating the #181 cover. One panel of Wolverine, even if it is the first ever panel, is not going to even come close to topping the character's first cover appearance, which happens to be one of the most iconic, recognizable, beloved covers in all of the hobby. That I can state with absolute metaphysical certainty.

 

Excellent points, Gene. My Elektra cover is beyond a doubt the first appearance of Elektra by months. The hobby has all these artificial valuations. Full appearances are more important than cameos, main run better than a side run, main title cover better than a fanzine cover (as in my Elektra case). If we want to be pure, then my Elektra cover should dwarf the DD 168 cover from an OA standpoint. But, we all know the world we live in, and that is just not the case. Thus, Hulk 181 beats Hulk 180, period. That being said, I agree with you that a couple pages in 181 would beat the 180 page, and then the rest of the 181 pages would follow. And the 181 cover blows it all out of the water. But, if all of those existed, would anyone still realistically consider this anywhere near the prices we're talking about? Realistically, this should be a 100K page at most. Unless you're thinking that the other big apperances are also over 100K per page now (JIM 83, etc.). Possibly, but there's been absolutely no track record to base this on. This might be the time for those prices, but maybe it isn't. We will see. I wouldn't be surprised either way, but I am surprised about all the conjecture at these levels.

 

You've completely edited the post I was responding to That's what I get for not quoting

 

 

Hey buddy, I didn't edit anything. Maybe someone else did. And, also, I don't think you can sit back and compare this to "what else you'd like to have at that price". Sure many would want this over the TOS 84, but many would want it the other way around. Apples and oranges, I'm afraid. Nope, for this you have to compare across first-appearance panel pages. This might be the top of the heap for some collectors, but not for kids of the 60s and earlier. Again, I'm not saying I have a clue where this will end up, just stating that the numbers being bantered about far exceed any logical extrapolation up to this point.

 

[Bronty]

we can list arguments pro and con all day long Hari, but if you think its going sub 100k, I'd gladly make a $100 wager with you...........

[Bronty]

So, that settles the definition of "1st" - -but as far as value goes, the hobby's laws of supply and demand can dictate whatever it wants in the marketplace to which is more valuable, so... sure #181 is worth more than #180 because more people want it.

 

Agreed. No question that Hulk #180 is Wolverine's true first appearance. But, there is no law that says that the first appearance has to be worth more than the second. In comics, Hulk #181 is worth more than Hulk #180 (more memorable, more Wolverine and he's on the cover), UXM #94 is worth more than GSXM #1 (harder to find in grade), UXM #266 is worth more than X-Men Annual #14 (the latter features Gambit, but the former has more Gambit and he's on the cover), and I'm sure there are other examples. In OA, Hari's Marvel house ad/Comics Journal cover featuring Elektra preceded the publication of DD #168 by months, but the latter is what everyone remembers and is part of the main title and is therefore more coveted and valuable (even though you can't even see Elektra's features!)

 

 

I think for comic art however this #180 page would rival if not possibly beat the cover of #181 or the title splash page of #181 for it's status as the 1st rendering of the character published, and could easily be coveted more than any other page within #181.

 

It might be more coveted than any of the #181 interiors (the splash at least would give it a run for its money, though), but it wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell of beating the #181 cover. One panel of Wolverine, even if it is the first ever panel, is not going to even come close to topping the character's first cover appearance, which happens to be one of the most iconic, recognizable, beloved covers in all of the hobby. That I can state with absolute metaphysical certainty.

 

Excellent points, Gene. My Elektra cover is beyond a doubt the first appearance of Elektra by months. The hobby has all these artificial valuations. Full appearances are more important than cameos, main run better than a side run, main title cover better than a fanzine cover (as in my Elektra case). If we want to be pure, then my Elektra cover should dwarf the DD 168 cover from an OA standpoint. But, we all know the world we live in, and that is just not the case. Thus, Hulk 181 beats Hulk 180, period. That being said, I agree with you that a couple pages in 181 would beat the 180 page, and then the rest of the 181 pages would follow. And the 181 cover blows it all out of the water. But, if all of those existed, would anyone still realistically consider this anywhere near the prices we're talking about? Realistically, this should be a 100K page at most. Unless you're thinking that the other big apperances are also over 100K per page now (JIM 83, etc.). Possibly, but there's been absolutely no track record to base this on. This might be the time for those prices, but maybe it isn't. We will see. I wouldn't be surprised either way, but I am surprised about all the conjecture at these levels.

 

You've completely edited the post I was responding to That's what I get for not quoting

 

 

Hey buddy, I didn't edit anything. Maybe someone else did. And, also, I don't think you can sit back and compare this to "what else you'd like to have at that price". Sure many would want this over the TOS 84, but many would want it the other way around. Apples and oranges, I'm afraid. Nope, for this you have to compare across first-appearance panel pages. This might be the top of the heap for some collectors, but not for kids of the 60s and earlier. Again, I'm not saying I have a clue where this will end up, just stating that the numbers being bantered about far exceed any logical extrapolation up to this point.

 

Really? I could have sworn the post read differently when first posted. No matter and no disrespect.

 

Yes its certainly apples and oranges However, so are marvel 1 pages!

 

It may not make sense I just personally see this at above the TOS 84 level, based on precisely nothing except my Buttquote .**

 

 

** valuation pulled out of my butt

[delekkerste]

That's the reason I asked why people are pulling 100s of thousands of dollars for this page as guesses out of thin air. Are we predicting the market or trying to create it here?? Let's be careful not to do the latter. What are pages from JIM 83, TOS 39, X-Men 1 worth?? That's the range we should be talking about. Key characters with large fanbases. Agreed some may argue Wolverine gets a premium, but I think that's debatable.

 

I am sure that almost every OA collector who started collecting in the '90s or earlier is cringing at the fact that a Herb Trimpe page from 1974 is about to blow all known records for Kirby art out of the water, just as they remain mortified that the top 5 or 6 biggest recorded sales for American OA include a McSpidey cover and two DKR pieces! I think the fact is, though, that enough time has passed for Bronze/Copper Age to have become the driving nostalgic force in the OA market, especially among the under-45 crowd.

 

This may be a controversial statement: while there are collectors, big collectors even, in their 30s and early 40s who do collect Silver Age and older art, I sincerely doubt that Silver Age gets them as passionate and pumped up as Bronze/Copper Age. For proof of that, just look at you and me. We both appreciate comics history and all the important artists, many of whom are represented in our respective collections. But, if I look at what really jazzes me up the most, I'd say it's the period from roughly 1973 to 1987 (I started collecting in 1983, but discovered much of the earlier material through back issues and reprints), while clearly the '80s hold a special position for you above all other decades. We and our peers want the Kirby, Ditko, Romita, Buscema, etc. examples as well, because we appreciate the history and those artists' contributions to everything that came later (not to mention some of the most iconic images, many of which happen to be among the hobby's biggest trophies, come from those artists). But, when I look at the big collectors who are sub-45/46 in age (with a couple of notable exceptions like Fishler), I strongly suspect that almost all of their respective nostalgic sweet spots and eras are, in their heart of hearts, either Bronze Age or Copper Age.

 

And, that's why I think this page will exceed, probably by a fair amount, pages from those Silver Age books you mentioned. Sure, many the older collectors/dealers will balk at paying that much for a Herb Trimpe Hulk page from the '70s. But I don't think some of the younger guns will have those qualms. Maybe talk of rivaling the DKR #3 splash and such was premature in light of allegations that the #181 pages might still be out there. But, I'm going to stick with my belief that this one will sell for at least $200K. Even if it somehow manages to miss that mark, I'm confident it will sell for closer to $200K than $100K.

[bluechip]

Hmm, could these kind of rumors keep the deep pockets from bidding as high with hopes of a 181 splash coming out?

 

(probably not)

 

Uh, this would absolutely hurt the price of the 180 page. Just imagine if only one X-Men 1 page existed, one FF 5 page, etc. etc. That one remaining page would be exponentially more valuable. If 181 exists, then about 20-25 people get to have an early Wolvie page; right now people have to fight for the one and only page (excluding the 182 page). That's a very big difference.

 

Forgive my ignorance since I already admitted that historical first appearance appeal is not burned as strongly in my DNA as it is with some, but I thought the main appeal to this page is that it is THE first appearance. So how would all the pages from 181 being available change that?

 

Scott

 

In the same way that Hulk 181 is quite a bit more expensive than Hulk 180. At the end off the day, Hulk 180 is not the money shot - pages from Hulk 181 would be. I realize this is a just not true from an OA standpoint, as the 180 image obviously came earlier. But first appearance OA collectors collect art from the first appearance books, and in this case that book is Hulk 181.

 

Collectors behave in strange ways sometimes, so there is no guarantee your theory won't bear out, but most of the logical reasons for the 180-181 differential disappear when you are talking about the art for the very first appearance and the pages from the next appearance

 

180 is the first appearance but in the age of cover-centric comic collecting it cannot compete with the 181 because if you have the book in the slab you cannot see what it is that makes the 180 significant. The precise opposite is true when you are talking about the art for the final page with the first appearance, complete with introductory text, etc.

 

 

[delekkerste]

Myself for example. I like wolverine, but I don't like the x-men much at all.

 

...but I bet you liked Alpha Flight a lot. Damn Canadians!

[Bronty]

Myself for example. I like wolverine, but I don't like the x-men much at all.

 

...but I bet you liked Alpha Flight a lot. Damn Canadians!

 

It wasn't that bad!

[heartened]

we can list arguments pro and con all day long Hari, but if you think its going sub 100k, I'd gladly make a $100 wager with you...........

 

Ha! I have no idea where it'll end up, but judging by a mere 100 dollar wager, I think neither do you