Ive lost ALL confidence in CGC - UPDATE on page 221 2 2

[namisgr]

I'm still disappointed that there's been no further update from CGC.

 

 

 

Not sure what you're expecting. Paul has indicated the company made a mistake in grading the comic as unrestored (the second time and, presumably, the first time it was given a blue label as well), and is working with the current owner on a financial solution.

 

I had a comic that I'd bought off the rack come back as 'trimmed'. Sent it to CGC so they could examine it carefully and use it to better distinguish trimmed from untrimmed comics. After it sat in Sarasota for over a month, and having contacted them multiple times via e-mail regarding the book's return, it was finally returned to me. My impression was that they never gave it another look, an unfortunate circumstance given the continuing difficulty of recognizing subtle trimming.

[topofthetotem]

Looks like Bleeding Cool picked up the story..

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2014/04/04/when-a-cgcd-comic-goes-from-unrestores-to-restored-and-back-again/

 

THIS JUST IN:

 

After careful consideration by everyone in the building, CGC is 100% certain that Dan's carpet has been trimmed as well.

 

 

 

 

 

I like trimmed carpet

[MatterEaterLad]

Deflect much?

 

Perhaps you'd have held a more realistic appraisal of CGC graded books had you been aware of prior threads on the boards discussing the very issue under consideration here: that labels have changed from blue to green or purple and back to blue again in the hands of several board members.

 

Show me a thread where a book changed four times.

 

 

 

[jbud73]

It's the same rug.

 

Never takes you long to jump on the "Anti-Dan" "Dan's a liar" band wagon

 

 

Rug = Dan?

 

Better?

 

I was struck by this part of the thread, when you posted:

 

My "model" is to seek out books that look undergraded in hopes of an upgrade. A bit of a gamble I know, but Im willing to take that gamble. Many people on these Boards including you have benefitted from this.

 

Ive always been honest about it, and never tried to hide it

 

Until others pointed out you were selling on these boards 9.6s that had previously graded 9.2s, 9.4s that had previously graded 9.0s,

and pedigree books that had lost their designations when you had them regraded, you hid it.

 

As for this thread, it's good that you went public with the label color change on the JIM83 - it's another excellent reminder that CGC isn't completely accurate in assessing trimming.

 

I have always had a huge problem with this tactic and the who do not maintain the provenance of Pedigree books to mask the Grade bumps. I can appreciate that Dan had the Blue-Purple-Blue happen to him and also am grateful that he brought it to light in a public forum, but .. I'll pay ppl the .2 + Grade bump, but I for one would appreciate knowing its a Ped. I mean even tell me after I've paid you so I can petition CGC to have the holder redone and add the provenance Back onto the label.

 

Had a hard time posting this as I'm not one to deflect a conversation but the tactic really hits a nerve. That said as much as I vehemently oppose the tactic, if the OP practices it, that still has absolutely no bearing on this whole situation

[ParamagicFF]

Sorry if I'm late to the party but the Bleeding Cool article on this is interesting, though it doesn't really say much or anything we didn't already discuss.

 

Agreed, and while most likely any CGC Diehards are already members here, the general comic public who maybe only dabbles in CGC books is probably not. Now I would assume they are.

 

This is some bad publicity. When your entire business is reassurance and a pretty case, and you lose the main half of that.......

 

They're just fortunate no real competition has ever emerged.

[namisgr]

Deflect much?

 

Perhaps you'd have held a more realistic appraisal of CGC graded books had you been aware of prior threads on the boards discussing the very issue under consideration here: that labels have changed from blue to green or purple and back to blue again in the hands of several board members.

 

Show me a thread where a book changed four times.

 

 

 

The JIM83 changed twice, as far as I know.

[MatterEaterLad]

Deflect much?

 

Perhaps you'd have held a more realistic appraisal of CGC graded books had you been aware of prior threads on the boards discussing the very issue under consideration here: that labels have changed from blue to green or purple and back to blue again in the hands of several board members.

 

Show me a thread where a book changed four times.

 

 

 

The JIM83 changed twice, as far as I know.

 

Splitting hairs here. When all is said and done, the book will have been labeled four times. Graded Blue. Graded Purple. Graded Blue. Now graded Purple again.

 

I supposed you could spin it and say they were wrong twice but RIGHT TWICE!

 

Like I said, kinda splitting hairs there.

 

 

[Spider-Dan]

It's the same rug.

 

Never takes you long to jump on the "Anti-Dan" "Dan's a liar" band wagon

 

 

Rug = Dan?

 

Better?

 

I was struck by this part of the thread, when you posted:

 

My "model" is to seek out books that look undergraded in hopes of an upgrade. A bit of a gamble I know, but Im willing to take that gamble. Many people on these Boards including you have benefitted from this.

 

Ive always been honest about it, and never tried to hide it

 

Until others pointed out you were selling on these boards 9.6s that had previously graded 9.2s, 9.4s that had previously graded 9.0s,

and pedigree books that had lost their designations when you had them regraded, you hid it.

 

As for this thread, it's good that you went public with the label color change on the JIM83 - it's another excellent reminder that CGC isn't completely accurate in assessing trimming.

 

I have always had a huge problem with this tactic and the who do not maintain the provenance of Pedigree books to mask the Grade bumps. I can appreciate that Dan had the Blue-Purple-Blue happen to him and also am grateful that he brought it to light in a public forum, but .. I'll pay ppl the .2 + Grade bump, but I for one would appreciate knowing its a Ped. I mean even tell me after I've paid you so I can petition CGC to have the holder redone and add the provenance Back onto the label.

 

Had a hard time posting this as I'm not one to deflect a conversation but the tactic really hits a nerve. That said as much as I vehemently oppose the tactic, if the OP practices it, that still has absolutely no bearing on this whole situation

 

Since I can see where this is headed.....

 

That re-slab of a Pedigree was a one time incident that happened before I realized how important it was to some collectors to keep the designation.

 

That subject was beat to death when that original thread started.

[THE_BEYONDER]

So many isolated incidents these days....

[mschmidt]

Deflect much?

 

Perhaps you'd have held a more realistic appraisal of CGC graded books had you been aware of prior threads on the boards discussing the very issue under consideration here: that labels have changed from blue to green or purple and back to blue again in the hands of several board members.

 

Show me a thread where a book changed four times.

 

 

 

The JIM83 changed twice, as far as I know.

 

Splitting hairs here. When all is said and done, the book will have been labeled four times. Graded Blue. Graded Purple. Graded Blue. Now graded Purple again.

 

I supposed you could spin it and say they were wrong twice but RIGHT TWICE!

 

Like I said, kinda splitting hairs there.

 

 

Why is that spinning? CGC did, in fact, screw up twice - it's silly to pretend that every label this book has had has been due to a mistake.

[Jimmy Linguini]

as an expert on 70's carpets. those are two very different carpets.

 

I had my doubts about the validity of Dan's claims at first, but that was just ignorance on my part.

 

Take him for his word and stop this same rug wildly_fanciful_statement-ery.

Edited April 4, 2014 by Jimmy Linguiniii

[MatterEaterLad]

Deflect much?

 

Perhaps you'd have held a more realistic appraisal of CGC graded books had you been aware of prior threads on the boards discussing the very issue under consideration here: that labels have changed from blue to green or purple and back to blue again in the hands of several board members.

 

Show me a thread where a book changed four times.

 

 

 

The JIM83 changed twice, as far as I know.

 

Splitting hairs here. When all is said and done, the book will have been labeled four times. Graded Blue. Graded Purple. Graded Blue. Now graded Purple again.

 

I supposed you could spin it and say they were wrong twice but RIGHT TWICE!

 

Like I said, kinda splitting hairs there.

 

 

Why is that spinning? CGC did, in fact, screw up twice - it's silly to pretend that every label this book has had has been due to a mistake.

 

Because (wait for it) no one really knows if the book is indeed trimmed. How do we know it's trimmed? Because the person who screwed up multiple times has assured us that now this time, with 100% veracity, it's trimmed? We'll never know.

 

The only real debate is regarding how often incidents like this occur.

 

Oh, and Dan's carpet.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Conan_Aficionado]

as an expert on 70's carpets. those are two very different carpets.

 

 

You've been girls in different houses haven't you, oh the joys of youth.

[Hamlet]

I don't know about anyone else, but this thread makes me want to start collecting trimmed books.

 

Nothing but upside!

[ChrisInBaltimore]

as an expert on 70's carpets. those are two very different carpets.

 

I had my doubts about the validity of Dan's claims at first, but that was just ignorance on my part.

 

Take him for his word and stop this same rug wildly_fanciful_statement-ery.

 

How does one become an "Expert of 70's carpets"?

[jbud73]

Deflect much?

 

Perhaps you'd have held a more realistic appraisal of CGC graded books had you been aware of prior threads on the boards discussing the very issue under consideration here: that labels have changed from blue to green or purple and back to blue again in the hands of several board members.

 

Show me a thread where a book changed four times.

 

 

 

The JIM83 changed twice, as far as I know.

 

Splitting hairs here. When all is said and done, the book will have been labeled four times. Graded Blue. Graded Purple. Graded Blue. Now graded Purple again.

 

I supposed you could spin it and say they were wrong twice but RIGHT TWICE!

 

Like I said, kinda splitting hairs there.

 

 

Why is that spinning? CGC did, in fact, screw up twice - it's silly to pretend that every label this book has had has been due to a mistake.

 

Because (wait for it) no one really knows if the book is indeed trimmed. How do we know it's trimmed? Because the person who screwed up multiple times has assured us that now this time, with 100% veracity, it's trimmed? We'll never know.

 

The only real debate is regarding how often incidents like this occur.

 

Oh, and Dan's carpet.

 

 

 

The frequency here is not as important as the overall concept. These statements are pretty easy to follow and extremely hard to refute IMO.

 

CGC missed trimming on the same book twice.

 

Trimming is a restoration tactic used to increase the technical grade of a book.

 

Submitters of trimmed books to CGC DO NOT disclose that a book has been trimmed when it is submitted.

 

Un-restored copies of books are work more than restored copies in the same grade.

 

CGC has no way of determining how many trimmed books have been submitted using the technique that CGC missed on two occasions.

 

From these statements one could assert that CGC is not able to detect trimming (using the JIM 83 technique) unless it has prior information to know that trimming exists. The crux is that 99.99999% of the time CGC does not have the luxury of knowing that a book they have assigned a PLOD was previously in a Universal Blue label.

 

Another interesting piece of empirical evidence concerning the PLOD - Blue situation and really the only one that I can think of that demonstrates frequency (leading me to believe that there are more examples of this out there than I am comfortable with). Have a look at GPA for Marvel Keys (IMO it is not be accident that the subject of this book was a JIM 83) - look at how many restored copies there are in GPA and the Census compared to non-Key books of the same era - the % is staggering.

 

I would extrapolate this to mean that Marvel Keys are very susceptible to restoration tactics - this may not be new news to anyone. However, taken that in the context of the discussion in this thread, you could make a strong inference that there are significant numbers of Marvel keys in Blue Holders that are Trimmed.

 

I say this as someone who is currently shopping for a HG 9.0 or better DD1. Do I have pause, or reduced desire to plunk down the 7,000 + it will take to get a copy, I have to say the answer to that is yes I do.

Edited April 4, 2014 by jbud73

[Mike's Rack]

as an expert on 70's carpets. those are two very different carpets.

 

 

You've been old ladiesin different houses haven't you, oh the joys of youth.

There are not very many girls anymore with '70's carpets

[VintageComics]

 

Because (wait for it) no one really knows if the book is indeed trimmed. How do we know it's trimmed? Because the person who screwed up multiple times has assured us that now this time, with 100% veracity, it's trimmed? We'll never know.

 

The only real debate is regarding how often incidents like this occur.

 

Oh, and Dan's carpet.

 

 

 

Using that line of reasoning, nobody really knows anything.

 

 

[MatterEaterLad]

 

Because (wait for it) no one really knows if the book is indeed trimmed. How do we know it's trimmed? Because the person who screwed up multiple times has assured us that now this time, with 100% veracity, it's trimmed? We'll never know.

 

The only real debate is regarding how often incidents like this occur.

 

Oh, and Dan's carpet.

 

 

 

Using that line of reasoning, nobody really knows anything.

 

 

Bingo.

 

Which is why I'm not subbing to anyone anytime soon. And why, the "We screwed up, we'll try harder" isn't enough for me. I'd have more confidence if the answer was "We believe (insert problem) happened, and we're doing (insert solution) to make sure it doesn't happen anymore."

 

 

 

[MatterEaterLad]

Deflect much?

 

Perhaps you'd have held a more realistic appraisal of CGC graded books had you been aware of prior threads on the boards discussing the very issue under consideration here: that labels have changed from blue to green or purple and back to blue again in the hands of several board members.

 

Show me a thread where a book changed four times.

 

 

 

The JIM83 changed twice, as far as I know.

 

Splitting hairs here. When all is said and done, the book will have been labeled four times. Graded Blue. Graded Purple. Graded Blue. Now graded Purple again.

 

I supposed you could spin it and say they were wrong twice but RIGHT TWICE!

 

Like I said, kinda splitting hairs there.

 

 

Why is that spinning? CGC did, in fact, screw up twice - it's silly to pretend that every label this book has had has been due to a mistake.

 

Because (wait for it) no one really knows if the book is indeed trimmed. How do we know it's trimmed? Because the person who screwed up multiple times has assured us that now this time, with 100% veracity, it's trimmed? We'll never know.

 

The only real debate is regarding how often incidents like this occur.

 

Oh, and Dan's carpet.

 

 

 

The frequency here is not as important as the overall concept. These statements are pretty easy to follow and extremely hard to refute IMO.

 

CGC missed trimming on the same book twice.

 

Trimming is a restoration tactic used to increase the technical grade of a book.

 

Submitters of trimmed books to CGC DO NOT disclose that a book has been trimmed when it is submitted.

 

Un-restored copies of books are work more than restored copies in the same grade.

 

CGC has no way of determining how many trimmed books have been submitted using the technique that CGC missed on two occasions.

 

From these statements one could assert that CGC is not able to detect trimming (using the JIM 83 technique) unless it has prior information to know that trimming exists. The crux is that 99.99999% of the time CGC does not have the luxury of knowing that a book they have assigned a PLOD was previously in a Universal Blue label.

 

Another interesting piece of empirical evidence concerning the PLOD - Blue situation and really the only one that I can think of that demonstrates frequency (leading me to believe that there are more examples of this out there than I am comfortable with). Have a look at GPA for Marvel Keys (IMO it is not be accident that the subject of this book was a JIM 83) - look at how many restored copies there are in GPA and the Census compared to non-Key books of the same era - the % is staggering.

 

I would extrapolate this to mean that Marvel Keys are very susceptible to restoration tactics - this may not be new news to anyone. However, taken that in the context of the discussion in this thread, you could make a strong inference that there are significant numbers of Marvel keys in Blue Holders that are Trimmed.

 

I say this as someone who is currently shopping for a HG 9.0 or better DD1. Do I have pause, or reduced desire to plunk down the 7,000 + it will take to get a copy, I have to say the answer to that is yes I do.

 

100% agree.