Ive lost ALL confidence in CGC - UPDATE on page 221 2 2

[namisgr]

It's the Peter Principle of comics: every slab rises to a grade above what it truly deserves.

 

While this is obviously a big exaggeration, there are an awful lot of slabbed comics with undeserving grades, and an evergrowing number of them. Especially recognizing that many books now are getting submitted (and often pressed) three, four, and even more times. Who says you can't get blood from a stone?

[rjpb]

I think it's definitely a good policy to pat one's self on the back, that you are an "obviously better" grader than what CGC is able to manage -- in particular, with your grading opinions based on web images. Well done!

 

Sarcasm noted, but it should be clear that I wasn't just referring to books that only I thought were overgraded. Or do you disagree that there are flaws evident in a scan than can be assessed in relation to the maximum grade that most collectors would be comfortable assigning?

 

As well, it's a great deal of fun to squelch someone's joy over a new purchase they might be showing off. Particularly if you can convince them that what they actually have is utter drek, and that they would be most fortunate if you were to relieve them of it -- at an appropriately discounted price.

So not wanting to join in with the congrats is now the same as publicly dumping on on someone's specific book? Or was this a reading comprehension fail?

 

"Final resting place book" -- not that big a deal, there are umpteens of such things around, in coins (they're called "coffins" in that case), or in anything certified. Inevitably, this is the natural order of things, as anything perceived as undergraded and worth the time to try, will be resubmitted. So you'll have some books undergraded, awaiting eventual resubmission by somebody, some appropriately graded, and some "final resting place" books that will sell for whatever they sell for (there will of course, also be books that stay raw forever, either they're not worth grading, or the owners may not wish to have slabs in their collection.)

 

For any "final resting place" book, if it's that clear of a "mistake" grade, then the book will find an appropriate price level regardless of the slab grade. It might even get cracked out, if the buyer just wants a raw copy. Whateves.

 

Just as long as we all congratulate the seller on the "mistake" grade, it's all good right?

 

[originalisbest]

It's the Peter Principle of comics: every slab rises to a grade above what it truly deserves.

 

While this is obviously a big exaggeration, there are an awful lot of slabbed comics with undeserving grades, and an evergrowing number of them. Especially recognizing that many books now are getting submitted (and often pressed) three, four, and even more times. Who says you can't get blood from a stone?

 

Goodness knows, it's done enough with coins. Not that even the coin will change that much or be fidgeted with (sometimes it is) but because standards shift.

[originalisbest]

I think it's definitely a good policy to pat one's self on the back, that you are an "obviously better" grader than what CGC is able to manage -- in particular, with your grading opinions based on web images. Well done!

 

Sarcasm noted, but it should be clear that I wasn't just referring to books that only I thought were overgraded. Or do you disagree that there are flaws evident in a scan than can be assessed in relation to the maximum grade that most collectors would be comfortable assigning?

 

As well, it's a great deal of fun to squelch someone's joy over a new purchase they might be showing off. Particularly if you can convince them that what they actually have is utter drek, and that they would be most fortunate if you were to relieve them of it -- at an appropriately discounted price.

So not wanting to join in with the congrats is now the same as publicly dumping on on someone's specific book? Or was this a reading comprehension fail?

 

"Final resting place book" -- not that big a deal, there are umpteens of such things around, in coins (they're called "coffins" in that case), or in anything certified. Inevitably, this is the natural order of things, as anything perceived as undergraded and worth the time to try, will be resubmitted. So you'll have some books undergraded, awaiting eventual resubmission by somebody, some appropriately graded, and some "final resting place" books that will sell for whatever they sell for (there will of course, also be books that stay raw forever, either they're not worth grading, or the owners may not wish to have slabs in their collection.)

 

For any "final resting place" book, if it's that clear of a "mistake" grade, then the book will find an appropriate price level regardless of the slab grade. It might even get cracked out, if the buyer just wants a raw copy. Whateves.

 

Just as long as we all congratulate the seller on the "mistake" grade, it's all good right?

 

 

I think one should use a bit of discretion, particular if you're only familiar with a book based on what you can see in a scan. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but if someone comes out to show off a new-to-them CGC purchase they're proud of, or trying to sell, or whatever, and you don't agree with the grade based on a scan(s) -- and you comment on it as such -- that's publically dumping on the book, yes. Which hardly seems a nice thing to do.

 

If one were to keep silent about their opinion, I have no particular problem with their viewing book "X" as overgraded, etc. If one must speak up about how overgraded a book must obviously be, I would hope they're at least involved to the point where they want to make a purchase of it, otherwise why are they bothering to chime in and pile on? But it seems boorish to argue CGC grades if you don't have the book in hand, or aren't extremely familiar with it/have owned it before.

 

If the real meat of the matter is the price one wants to pay, then argue that. I can disagree with the grade on any given book, but it doesn't mean I extrapolate from there and assume I can do better at grading/know better than CGC on all levels.

[originalisbest]

Sarcasm noted, but it should be clear that I wasn't just referring to books that only I thought were overgraded. Or do you disagree that there are flaws evident in a scan than can be assessed in relation to the maximum grade that most collectors would be comfortable assigning?

 

 

------

 

 

To reply to this specifically, yes, I would note there can be flaws evident in scan up to a point, but it's still not the same as seeing them in person. A scan can exaggerate and also minimize visual impact, vs. an in-hand examination. It also depends on your interpretation of "classic" standards, like the discussed-elsewhere Showcase 22 in 6.0 with a sub crease. I agree with Steve B. that you can have an otherwise superior book with a subcrease, vs. a sorta-overall VG-ish book with the same type of subcrease, and the nicer of those two, I see as higher in numerical grade, have no prob with it as a 6.0 -- don't think they both need to be relegated to VG, with no wiggle room/no exceptions.

 

For those who stick avidly to the Overstreet standard on subcreases, or (pick your pet peeve flaw, any will do) -- that's fine, but not all may share that opinion now. Overstreet is not infallible; if it were so, it could be argued that people in general still rely strictly on Overstreet for pricing info as well.

 

 

[rjpb]

I think it's definitely a good policy to pat one's self on the back, that you are an "obviously better" grader than what CGC is able to manage -- in particular, with your grading opinions based on web images. Well done!

 

Sarcasm noted, but it should be clear that I wasn't just referring to books that only I thought were overgraded. Or do you disagree that there are flaws evident in a scan than can be assessed in relation to the maximum grade that most collectors would be comfortable assigning?

 

As well, it's a great deal of fun to squelch someone's joy over a new purchase they might be showing off. Particularly if you can convince them that what they actually have is utter drek, and that they would be most fortunate if you were to relieve them of it -- at an appropriately discounted price.

So not wanting to join in with the congrats is now the same as publicly dumping on on someone's specific book? Or was this a reading comprehension fail?

 

"Final resting place book" -- not that big a deal, there are umpteens of such things around, in coins (they're called "coffins" in that case), or in anything certified. Inevitably, this is the natural order of things, as anything perceived as undergraded and worth the time to try, will be resubmitted. So you'll have some books undergraded, awaiting eventual resubmission by somebody, some appropriately graded, and some "final resting place" books that will sell for whatever they sell for (there will of course, also be books that stay raw forever, either they're not worth grading, or the owners may not wish to have slabs in their collection.)

 

For any "final resting place" book, if it's that clear of a "mistake" grade, then the book will find an appropriate price level regardless of the slab grade. It might even get cracked out, if the buyer just wants a raw copy. Whateves.

 

Just as long as we all congratulate the seller on the "mistake" grade, it's all good right?

 

 

I think one should use a bit of discretion, particular if you're only familiar with a book based on what you can see in a scan. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but if someone comes out to show off a new-to-them CGC purchase they're proud of, or trying to sell, or whatever, and you don't agree with the grade based on a scan(s) -- and you comment on it as such -- that's publically dumping on the book, yes. Which hardly seems a nice thing to do.

 

If one were to keep silent about their opinion, I have no particular problem with their viewing book "X" as overgraded, etc. If one must speak up about how overgraded a book must obviously be, I would hope they're at least involved to the point where they want to make a purchase of it, otherwise why are they bothering to chime in and pile on? But it seems boorish to argue CGC grades if you don't have the book in hand, or aren't extremely familiar with it/have owned it before.

 

If the real meat of the matter is the price one wants to pay, then argue that. I can disagree with the grade on any given book, but it doesn't mean I extrapolate from there and assume I can do better at grading/know better than CGC on all levels.

 

But you seem willing to extrapolate from my post, as I never mentioned commenting publicly or even privately to the owner on a specific book, or that I assume I know better than CGC on all levels.

 

As for the "boorishness" of arguing grades on books that one has not had in hand, does this apply only to CGC or anyone's grades? PGX? Raw books on ebay? Should we all abandon the grading thread and grading contests? Should we not comment on inconsistencies or changes in CGC's grading of a particular book if we've not seen it in person?

[drbanner]

I will say with my limited experience both buying and selling GA CGC books that I believe to be obviously overgraded, that they tend to sell for closer to what they appear to be, than what CGC has said they are.

(thumbs u

[originalisbest]

I think it's definitely a good policy to pat one's self on the back, that you are an "obviously better" grader than what CGC is able to manage -- in particular, with your grading opinions based on web images. Well done!

 

Sarcasm noted, but it should be clear that I wasn't just referring to books that only I thought were overgraded. Or do you disagree that there are flaws evident in a scan than can be assessed in relation to the maximum grade that most collectors would be comfortable assigning?

 

As well, it's a great deal of fun to squelch someone's joy over a new purchase they might be showing off. Particularly if you can convince them that what they actually have is utter drek, and that they would be most fortunate if you were to relieve them of it -- at an appropriately discounted price.

So not wanting to join in with the congrats is now the same as publicly dumping on on someone's specific book? Or was this a reading comprehension fail?

 

"Final resting place book" -- not that big a deal, there are umpteens of such things around, in coins (they're called "coffins" in that case), or in anything certified. Inevitably, this is the natural order of things, as anything perceived as undergraded and worth the time to try, will be resubmitted. So you'll have some books undergraded, awaiting eventual resubmission by somebody, some appropriately graded, and some "final resting place" books that will sell for whatever they sell for (there will of course, also be books that stay raw forever, either they're not worth grading, or the owners may not wish to have slabs in their collection.)

 

For any "final resting place" book, if it's that clear of a "mistake" grade, then the book will find an appropriate price level regardless of the slab grade. It might even get cracked out, if the buyer just wants a raw copy. Whateves.

 

Just as long as we all congratulate the seller on the "mistake" grade, it's all good right?

 

 

I think one should use a bit of discretion, particular if you're only familiar with a book based on what you can see in a scan. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but if someone comes out to show off a new-to-them CGC purchase they're proud of, or trying to sell, or whatever, and you don't agree with the grade based on a scan(s) -- and you comment on it as such -- that's publically dumping on the book, yes. Which hardly seems a nice thing to do.

 

If one were to keep silent about their opinion, I have no particular problem with their viewing book "X" as overgraded, etc. If one must speak up about how overgraded a book must obviously be, I would hope they're at least involved to the point where they want to make a purchase of it, otherwise why are they bothering to chime in and pile on? But it seems boorish to argue CGC grades if you don't have the book in hand, or aren't extremely familiar with it/have owned it before.

 

If the real meat of the matter is the price one wants to pay, then argue that. I can disagree with the grade on any given book, but it doesn't mean I extrapolate from there and assume I can do better at grading/know better than CGC on all levels.

 

But you seem willing to extrapolate from my post, as I never mentioned commenting publicly or even privately to the owner on a specific book, or that I assume I know better than CGC on all levels.

 

As for the "boorishness" of arguing grades on books that one has not had in hand, does this apply only to CGC or anyone's grades? PGX? Raw books on ebay? Should we all abandon the grading thread and grading contests? Should we not comment on inconsistencies or changes in CGC's grading of a particular book if we've not seen it in person?

 

Comment away as you wish (and my posting isn't directed so much at only you, but also drbanner, ft, etc. above you.) Everyone's entitled to their opinion. But it doesn't mean that opinion won't come off as "boorish" and "poor form." Grading contests and the grading thread are obviously different animals, vs. someone showing off a book they're proud of (but not asking for a grade drive-by) or posting a book and trying to sell it.

[VintageComics]

I will say with my limited experience both buying and selling GA CGC books that I believe to be obviously overgraded, that they tend to sell for closer to what they appear to be, than what CGC has said they are.

(thumbs u

 

I agree as well.

 

Just as a tightly graded VF/NM with a book length crease graded as a VG+ would probably set records. It works both ways.

 

 

[drbanner]

While this is obviously a big exaggeration, there are an awful lot of slabbed comics with undeserving grades, and an evergrowing number of them.

Yep, and it's not only because of CGC's systematically loosening grading standards either. Over time, the normalized distribution of over/undergraded books gets skewed as the undergraded books are disproportionately resubbed while the overgraded books never get the "opportunity" to be given the correct grade.

 

[originalisbest]

While this is obviously a big exaggeration, there are an awful lot of slabbed comics with undeserving grades, and an evergrowing number of them.

Yep, and it's not only because of CGC's systematically loosening grading standards either. Over time, the normalized distribution of over/undergraded books gets skewed as the undergraded books are disproportionately resubbed while the overgraded books never get the "opportunity" to be given the correct grade.

 

And, the majority of books will probably continue to be those considered "accurately" graded.

[VintageComics]

While this is obviously a big exaggeration, there are an awful lot of slabbed comics with undeserving grades, and an evergrowing number of them.

Yep, and it's not only because of CGC's systematically loosening grading standards either. Over time, the normalized distribution of over/undergraded books gets skewed as the undergraded books are disproportionately resubbed while the overgraded books never get the "opportunity" to be given the correct grade.

 

It's still better than the alternative in the Wild West with no real standard like when people buy a NM range book and actually receive a Fine range book (and possibly with undisclosed resto), none being the wiser.

[drbanner]

It's still better than the alternative in the Wild West with no real standard like when people buy a NM range book and actually receive a Fine range book (and possibly with undisclosed resto), none being the wiser.

Yes, it's "better than nothing"...what an endorsement, eh?

[Flaming_Telepath]

While this is obviously a big exaggeration, there are an awful lot of slabbed comics with undeserving grades, and an evergrowing number of them.

Yep, and it's not only because of CGC's systematically loosening grading standards either. Over time, the normalized distribution of over/undergraded books gets skewed as the undergraded books are disproportionately resubbed while the overgraded books never get the "opportunity" to be given the correct grade.

 

And, the majority of books will probably continue to be those considered "accurately" graded.

 

No, the majority of books in the hobby will gradually skew towards the over-graded. The tightly graded books will get resubbed, and resubbed, and resubbed, until they achieve the 'desired' grade, not the 'correct' one.

 

The already over-graded books will remain in the same slab forever and a day.

 

There are posters in this very thread that resub and resub - a process punctuated by numerous phonecalls and 'chats' - until they get the grade they want.

 

And I'll pretty much guarantee you, that is unlikely to be the grade the book warrants.

[trmoore54]

While this is obviously a big exaggeration, there are an awful lot of slabbed comics with undeserving grades, and an evergrowing number of them.

Yep, and it's not only because of CGC's systematically loosening grading standards either. Over time, the normalized distribution of over/undergraded books gets skewed as the undergraded books are disproportionately resubbed while the overgraded books never get the "opportunity" to be given the correct grade.

 

This!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Back to the Calgary EXPO thread...

Edited April 29, 2014 by trmoore54

[Flaming_Telepath]

While this is obviously a big exaggeration, there are an awful lot of slabbed comics with undeserving grades, and an evergrowing number of them.

Yep, and it's not only because of CGC's systematically loosening grading standards either. Over time, the normalized distribution of over/undergraded books gets skewed as the undergraded books are disproportionately resubbed while the overgraded books never get the "opportunity" to be given the correct grade.

 

It's still better than the alternative in the Wild West with no real standard like when people buy a NM range book and actually receive a Fine range book (and possibly with undisclosed resto), none being the wiser.

 

But that's apples and oranges.

 

You're talking about comparing any old clueless dealer with a company that sells itself as an independent authority, solely in business to grade books.

 

You'd be staggered if the latter couldn't do a better job of it.

[drbanner]

While this is obviously a big exaggeration, there are an awful lot of slabbed comics with undeserving grades, and an evergrowing number of them.

Yep, and it's not only because of CGC's systematically loosening grading standards either. Over time, the normalized distribution of over/undergraded books gets skewed as the undergraded books are disproportionately resubbed while the overgraded books never get the "opportunity" to be given the correct grade.

This!

[pickycollector]

It's still better than the alternative in the Wild West with no real standard like when people buy a NM range book and actually receive a Fine range book (and possibly with undisclosed resto), none being the wiser.

Yes, it's "better than nothing"...what an endorsement, eh?

And only very few sellers will accept a return on a CGC book, even if clearly over-graded, while I know nobody (at least in the CGC Forum) whom will not accept returns on raw books

Edited April 29, 2014 by pickycollector

[VintageComics]

Yes, it's "better than nothing"...what an endorsement, eh?

 

Actually, it's the "better than everything else" endorsement. It's not a perfect system but I have yet to find a better one unless I put in the work, take my losses and learn how to grade myself (or until I find those dealers who tend to undergrade).

 

 

No, the majority of books in the hobby will gradually skew towards the over-graded. The tightly graded books will get resubbed, and resubbed, and resubbed, until they achieve the 'desired' grade, not the 'correct' one.

 

The already over-graded books will remain in the same slab forever and a day.

 

There are posters in this very thread that resub and resub - a process punctuated by numerous phonecalls and 'chats' - until they get the grade they want.

 

And I'll pretty much guarantee you, that is unlikely to be the grade the book warrants.

 

People don't call and chat until they get the grade they want. That's a fabrication on your part.

 

My own personal frustration stems from inconsistency, which nobody in this thread will argue hasn't existed.

 

And while 'the majority of books in the hobby gradually skew towards over-graded' (also an exaggeration - at least namisgr qualified his as such) nothing happens in a vacuum except for internet disagreements. People will continue to get more educated about graded books (just as they have been from 1999 until now) and markets will continue to evolve, pay premiums for tightly graded books and avoid over graded books.

 

While every system has it's flaws, you are focusing on all the negatives while turning a blind eye to the positives. Throwing out baby and bathwater.

[VintageComics]

While this is obviously a big exaggeration, there are an awful lot of slabbed comics with undeserving grades, and an evergrowing number of them.

Yep, and it's not only because of CGC's systematically loosening grading standards either. Over time, the normalized distribution of over/undergraded books gets skewed as the undergraded books are disproportionately resubbed while the overgraded books never get the "opportunity" to be given the correct grade.

 

It's still better than the alternative in the Wild West with no real standard like when people buy a NM range book and actually receive a Fine range book (and possibly with undisclosed resto), none being the wiser.

 

But that's apples and oranges.

 

You're talking about comparing any old clueless dealer with a company that sells itself as an independent authority, solely in business to grade books.

 

You'd be staggered if the latter couldn't do a better job of it.

 

From where I'm standing, I'm talking about it from the perspective of the average buyer who hasn't a clue.

 

It's apples and apples.

 

While a percentage of books will always be in the 'wrong grades no matter who grades them (even the best dealers make mistakes) the majority will be in the correct range. The market will decide the values to place on them IMO.