Cole Schave collection: face jobs?

[VintageComics]

What I am saying is that pressing if done properly doesn't necessarily damage books as much as those that dislike pressing like to say they do.

It's an old argument. And it ignores everything shown in this thread to date.

 

The books in this thread got messed up in the name of "improvement", "maximizing" or however someone wants to describe their intentions for pressing books. That's the whole point. It does some bad things to the comics. I will refer you to the book that started this thread, pressed by the best people in the business and given an awesome grade bump for it. Continued arguing that it doesn't do anything bad when done "properly" is just trying to hold on to beliefs that no longer fit the evidence at hand.

Sure but shipping has destroyed books. I know someone who had a 30K book run over by a tow motor. There are plenty of people who post threads about books that are destroyed during shipping.

 

So has grading, and reading them. Books get damaged all the time and people vent about it.

 

Does that mean that those practices are bad too? Should they be limited?

 

The number of books destroyed in all of the above scenarios are relatively small.

 

Finally, 'best in the business' is subjective, isn't it?

[Bomber-Bob]

Since there are so many things that can cause damage to a book, it amazes me that true, unpressed 9.8's of vintage comics actual exist. That was the original criteria for high grade valuation, rarity.

[VintageComics]

Why can't you just defend pressing with the truth?

 

Why do you vilify it to make it more than it is?

 

 

Why do you continue to dance around the truth? If it wasn't akin to printing money...no one would be doing it.

 

We're discussing the mechanics of it.

 

You're discussing the motive.

 

Two different things.

[THE_BEYONDER]

Why can't you just defend pressing with the truth?

 

Why do you vilify it to make it more than it is?

 

 

Why do you continue to dance around the truth? If it wasn't akin to printing money...no one would be doing it.

 

We're discussing the mechanics of it.

 

You're discussing the motive.

 

Two different things.

 

Without the money....there would be no mechanics.

[MrBedrock]

Why can't you just defend pressing with the truth?

 

Why do you vilify it to make it more than it is?

 

 

Why do you continue to dance around the truth? If it wasn't akin to printing money...no one would be doing it.

Why don't you accept the fact that some of us like flat comics?

Or are you just too obtuse to understand the concept?

Or is it that without the crutch of blame and indignity you are just a lost soul?

Or put more simply, are you just stupid?

 

Three possible truths for ya (thumbs u

[VintageComics]

Why can't you just defend pressing with the truth?

 

Why do you vilify it to make it more than it is?

 

 

Why do you continue to dance around the truth? If it wasn't akin to printing money...no one would be doing it.

 

We're discussing the mechanics of it.

 

You're discussing the motive.

 

Two different things.

 

Without the money....there would be no mechanics.

 

You mean kids wouldn't put their comics under encyclopedias unless they were going to make a fortune?

 

 

 

[THE_BEYONDER]

Why can't you just defend pressing with the truth?

 

Why do you vilify it to make it more than it is?

 

 

Why do you continue to dance around the truth? If it wasn't akin to printing money...no one would be doing it.

Why don't you accept the fact that some of us like flat comics?

Or are you just too obtuse to understand the concept?

Or is it that without the crutch of blame and indignity you are just a lost soul?

Or put more simply, are you just stupid?

 

Three possible truths for ya (thumbs u

 

Strike a nerve little buddy?

 

Obtuse....lost soul....and stupid.

 

Now you've just gone & hurt my feelings.

[MrBedrock]

Why can't you just defend pressing with the truth?

 

Why do you vilify it to make it more than it is?

 

 

Why do you continue to dance around the truth? If it wasn't akin to printing money...no one would be doing it.

Why don't you accept the fact that some of us like flat comics?

Or are you just too obtuse to understand the concept?

Or is it that without the crutch of blame and indignity you are just a lost soul?

Or put more simply, are you just stupid?

 

Three possible truths for ya (thumbs u

 

Strike a nerve buddy?

 

Obtuse....lost soul....and stupid.

 

Now you've just gone & hurt my feelings.

If your feelings are hurt maybe I struck a nerve. Sorry about that.

[jimbo_707]

Why can't you just defend pressing with the truth?

 

Why do you vilify it to make it more than it is?

 

 

Why do you continue to dance around the truth? If it wasn't akin to printing money...no one would be doing it.

Why don't you accept the fact that some of us like flat comics?

Or are you just too obtuse to understand the concept?

Or is it that without the crutch of blame and indignity you are just a lost soul?

Or put more simply, are you just stupid?

 

Three possible truths for ya (thumbs u

Even I like flat comics. I especially like flat comics without shrunken covers and impacted staples.

 

Some people like flat comics more than they care about conserving comics.

 

Some people like flat comics enough to risk damaging the comics in order to flatten them.

 

Some people really don't care at all how many comics they damage as long as there's a net profit.

 

(This post made me feel like a philosopher. I feel like I should be sitting in a hut in Tibet or something.)

[MrBedrock]

I especially like flat comics without shrunken covers and impacted staples.

Me too (thumbs u

 

 

[r100comics]

I'm not sure why this discussion has started to focus on comics with natural pokethrough as it's moving us away from the real issue. Let's remember there are many high grade books still being ruined through improper pressing.

 

There were a bunch of these in the Don & Maggie auction that were not downgraded by CGC (though not as bad as the Cole Schave books).

 

The graphic someone posted shows it best, but they're the ones where the front cover has been twisted anti-clockwise causing an increasing diagonal pokethrough from bottom to top, with the top right tip of the front cover protruding unnaturally from the pages.

 

These are very clear characteristics of books that are being improperly pressed (Cole Schave style) that you would never see naturally.

[THE_BEYONDER]

Since there are so many things that can cause damage to a book, it amazes me that true, unpressed 9.8's of vintage comics actual exist. That was the original criteria for high grade valuation, rarity.

 

Yup. There was a direct correlation between the State of Preservation & value.

 

The rarity of books being preserved in pristine condition justified the premium collectors paid.

 

The 'value' was real.

 

In today's market, the value is as artificial as these CGC grades.

[comicwiz]

Since there are so many things that can cause damage to a book, it amazes me that true, unpressed 9.8's of vintage comics actual exist. That was the original criteria for high grade valuation, rarity.

 

Yup. There was a direct correlation between the State of Preservation & value.

 

The rarity of books being preserved in pristine condition justified the premium collectors paid.

 

The 'value' was real.

 

In today's market, the value is as artificial as the CGC grades.

 

This is a simple explanation to the motivations to keep things going, but the guesswork aspect is what is absent from the discussion, and what has the most impact on values.

 

In other hobbies, the knowledge ramp-up that needs to take place in order to eliminate the guesswork eventually takes its toll by debasing certain collectibles unless they are mint, unopened, factory sealed examples. The rest no-one cares about any longer because of the cottage industries that have formed to alter and manipulate them to appear original.

 

The way this plays out is you have buyers from all walks of life - pawn shops to travelling roadshows - that will advertise they are "experts" and "serious buyers" but when you arrive at their establishment or rented hotel room, you quickly find out their buying detail is so narrow and specific that it's impossible to bring something they'll actually buy.

 

These guys advertise they are looking for comics, militaria, coins, trading cards, toys, gold/silver, diamonds - the full gamut. When you get there, they are only looking for Action 1's, Canadian Victoria Cross medals, 1921 5/50 cent coins, Honus Wagner T206's, and 50 carat diamonds. The only thing they do buy that they advertise without such a discriminate preference is gold and silver, but they pay 30% of spot if you're lucky.

 

It's ludicrous to think they would waste people's time to run this racket, and that they would be allowed to run them undisturbed even though such organizations like the BBB have warned consumers about their activities. But these travelling roadshows do it because every once in a while a situation pans out that justifies the ridiculous amount of effort that goes into setting up their ruses across the country.

 

In essence, the external attitudes and behaviours of those looking to cash in on collectibles is very similar to the pawn shop and roadshow mindset, and it's motivated by making money and by operating where there is the most money commensurate to demand, and by eliminating the guesswork.

 

CGC was meant to be a panacea for eliminating the guesswork in the vintage comic back-issue hobby, but in it's current iteration, it is going to produce far more suspicions and harm than good. The way this eventually shakes out is that comic values over the long term will be effected because "experts" and "serous buyers" will look at certification as irrelevant and a sunken cost that owners will not be able to recuperate. Take a loss or crack it out and sell it at a higher grade and Bob's your Uncle.

 

And for those who think this is a stretch, consider that the data creep aspect will mean a lot more cracked out books to avoid the trace-back to before scans revealing magical upgrades with more questions than settling answers justifying the merits of the grade.

[drbanner]

I'm not sure why this discussion has started to focus on comics with natural pokethrough as it's moving us away from the real issue. Let's remember there are many high grade books still being ruined through improper pressing.

 

There were a bunch of these in the Don & Maggie auction that were not downgraded by CGC (though not as bad as the Cole Schave books).

I think most folks refrained from pointing this out in deference to the owners, but you're right, while not as severe as the Schave books, some of the Don & Maggie books exhibited the same deformation.

 

Really don't understand how this keeps happening, CGC needs to go back to the "old way" of pressing books, whatever procedural change was implemented this summer needs to stop.

[jimbo_707]

I'm not sure why this discussion has started to focus on comics with natural pokethrough as it's moving us away from the real issue. Let's remember there are many high grade books still being ruined through improper pressing.

 

There were a bunch of these in the Don & Maggie auction that were not downgraded by CGC (though not as bad as the Cole Schave books).

I think most folks refrained from pointing this out in deference to the owners, but you're right, while not as severe as the Schave books, some of the Don & Maggie books exhibited the same deformation.

 

Really don't understand how this keeps happening, CGC needs to go back to the "old way" of pressing books, whatever procedural change was implemented this summer needs to stop.

 

I've seen plenty of books slabbed prior to this year that had some cover shrinkage due to pressing. (Someone posted photos of an Action or Supes example a while back.) CCS needs to figure out how to reduce cover shrinkage to zero. If that's not possible, they should just stop pressing.

 

Prediction 1: Books slabbed prior to 2009, or whenever the CPR craze went into full swing, will command greater and greater premiums in the market.

 

Prediction 2: Once Prediction 1 comes to pass, CGC will eliminate the ability to look up the date a book was slabbed.

 

Prediction 3: Old-label books will go up in value substantially due to their desirability to collectors who want un-manipulated, or less-abusively-manipulated, specimens (as opposed to the slight premium they have now due to their CPR potential).

 

(Last night I felt like a philosopher; today I feel like a prophet.)

 

[mschmidt]

I'm not sure why this discussion has started to focus on comics with natural pokethrough as it's moving us away from the real issue. Let's remember there are many high grade books still being ruined through improper pressing.

 

There were a bunch of these in the Don & Maggie auction that were not downgraded by CGC (though not as bad as the Cole Schave books).

I think most folks refrained from pointing this out in deference to the owners, but you're right, while not as severe as the Schave books, some of the Don & Maggie books exhibited the same deformation.

 

Really don't understand how this keeps happening, CGC needs to go back to the "old way" of pressing books, whatever procedural change was implemented this summer needs to stop.

 

I've seen plenty of books slabbed prior to this year that had some cover shrinkage due to pressing. (Someone posted photos of an Action or Supes example a while back.) CCS needs to figure out how to reduce cover shrinkage to zero. If that's not possible, they should just stop pressing.

 

Prediction 1: Books slabbed prior to 2009, or whenever the CPR craze went into full swing, will command greater and greater premiums in the market.

 

Prediction 2: Once Prediction 1 comes to pass, CGC will eliminate the ability to look up the date a book was slabbed.

 

Prediction 3: Old-label books will go up in value substantially due to their desirability to collectors who want un-manipulated, or less-abusively-manipulated, specimens (as opposed to the slight premium they have now due to their CPR potential).

 

(Last night I felt like a philosopher; today I feel like a prophet.)

 

 

Or .... people are simply going to continue paying less for books that don't present as nicely (miswraps, page peak-throughs, etc) as other copies in the same grade. Just like everyone has already been doing for the last couple of decades.

[JollyComics]

I'm not sure why this discussion has started to focus on comics with natural pokethrough as it's moving us away from the real issue. Let's remember there are many high grade books still being ruined through improper pressing.

 

There were a bunch of these in the Don & Maggie auction that were not downgraded by CGC (though not as bad as the Cole Schave books).

 

The graphic someone posted shows it best, but they're the ones where the front cover has been twisted anti-clockwise causing an increasing diagonal pokethrough from bottom to top, with the top right tip of the front cover protruding unnaturally from the pages.

 

These are very clear characteristics of books that are being improperly pressed (Cole Schave style) that you would never see naturally.

 

Maybe Cole pressed his books himself.

[mrmyst]

I'm not sure why this discussion has started to focus on comics with natural pokethrough as it's moving us away from the real issue. Let's remember there are many high grade books still being ruined through improper pressing.

 

There were a bunch of these in the Don & Maggie auction that were not downgraded by CGC (though not as bad as the Cole Schave books).

I think most folks refrained from pointing this out in deference to the owners, but you're right, while not as severe as the Schave books, some of the Don & Maggie books exhibited the same deformation.

 

Really don't understand how this keeps happening, CGC needs to go back to the "old way" of pressing books, whatever procedural change was implemented this summer needs to stop.

 

I've seen plenty of books slabbed prior to this year that had some cover shrinkage due to pressing. (Someone posted photos of an Action or Supes example a while back.) CCS needs to figure out how to reduce cover shrinkage to zero. If that's not possible, they should just stop pressing.

 

Prediction 1: Books slabbed prior to 2009, or whenever the CPR craze went into full swing, will command greater and greater premiums in the market.

 

Prediction 2: Once Prediction 1 comes to pass, CGC will eliminate the ability to look up the date a book was slabbed.

 

Prediction 3: Old-label books will go up in value substantially due to their desirability to collectors who want un-manipulated, or less-abusively-manipulated, specimens (as opposed to the slight premium they have now due to their CPR potential).

 

(Last night I felt like a philosopher; today I feel like a prophet.)

 

 

Or .... people are simply going to continue paying less for books that don't present as nicely (miswraps, page peak-throughs, etc) as other copies in the same grade. Just like everyone has already been doing for the last couple of decades.

[JollyComics]

I'm not sure why this discussion has started to focus on comics with natural pokethrough as it's moving us away from the real issue. Let's remember there are many high grade books still being ruined through improper pressing.

 

There were a bunch of these in the Don & Maggie auction that were not downgraded by CGC (though not as bad as the Cole Schave books).

I think most folks refrained from pointing this out in deference to the owners, but you're right, while not as severe as the Schave books, some of the Don & Maggie books exhibited the same deformation.

 

Really don't understand how this keeps happening, CGC needs to go back to the "old way" of pressing books, whatever procedural change was implemented this summer needs to stop.

 

I've seen plenty of books slabbed prior to this year that had some cover shrinkage due to pressing. (Someone posted photos of an Action or Supes example a while back.) CCS needs to figure out how to reduce cover shrinkage to zero. If that's not possible, they should just stop pressing.

 

Prediction 1: Books slabbed prior to 2009, or whenever the CPR craze went into full swing, will command greater and greater premiums in the market.

 

Prediction 2: Once Prediction 1 comes to pass, CGC will eliminate the ability to look up the date a book was slabbed.

 

Prediction 3: Old-label books will go up in value substantially due to their desirability to collectors who want un-manipulated, or less-abusively-manipulated, specimens (as opposed to the slight premium they have now due to their CPR potential).

 

(Last night I felt like a philosopher; today I feel like a prophet.)

 

 

I think old labels are disappearing fast.

[Straw-Man]

i need to start a "post your old label books" thread over in gold.