Cole Schave collection: face jobs?

[sborock]

 

If memory serves, Dice has been very specifically referring to how the manufacturing process worked at the Sparta, Tennessee plant where Marvel comics were printed throughout most of the Silver Age superhero runs. So are you disputing how the folding and trimming process worked at Sparta specifically when you said you disagree with him? Your assertion above is unclear about that. If you didn't realize he was talking specifically about Sparta, you two could be in complete agreement.

 

I disgree that the early SA comics were were bound and cut the way he stated. That might be true of later books, but my gut, experience, and research tells me early SA was not done that way. Like I stated earlier, for reasons I had mentioned, I am not going into details about the different printing and binding processes.

[sborock]

I'm sorry but who are you again?

 

 

I'm your wicked Uncle Ernie

[blazingbob]

You are a Comic Tease just like all the other things you say to me.

 

 

[comicwiz]

I think a lot of the points you raise speak to the issues, but some leave open-ended questions. It's been some time since the discussion about a third-party assessing certified books was brought up here on the boards, but seeing your points about being able to identify these tweaks "most" of the time, I think the notion, if not the exact function, of companies like CVA seem to carry more merit in light of RSR and Costanza books passing through undetected. To be clear, I'm not suggesting CVA in it's current iteration, but on the platform of offering an assessment on undisclosed work, I see some benefit to a secondary opinion on slabs.

 

As I see it, no one needs to be more informed than the sellers that their certified books show signs of Costanza or RSR, and finding out from a seasoned pro like yourself at a show or during a transaction would be a confidence breaker. Where's the fun in being told a book you thought was one grade, isn't because it's been over graded, or that a controversial (and mostly negatively perceived) manipulation technique was used to attain the grade? Have this happen enough, and I think it could turn out to be a deal-breaker as far as people seeing the merit of having books certified.

 

The other misnomer in this whole situation is ranking these misses as evolving collector preferences whittling out defects no longer perceived as being tolerable to refined collecting tastes. We saw books with cream pages, miswrap or too much white on the spine, off-centering and other production traits showing a wider value disparity over the years when compared to the books in the exact same grade not revealing the same production problems. There is a marked difference between books produced in such a manner, and books which did not exhibit Costanza or RSR prior to someone manhandling them and creating those defects. I'm not suggesting you spoke on this, but I want to make it clear that part of my complaint from the beginning is that this brand of manipulation is blending-in way too easily into the discussion and perception problems of "production defects" when this couldn't be further from the truth.

 

Ultimately, this leads to the problem that it's taking the wind out of the sails from collectors who otherwise had no reason to worry or care about pressing because now books they have been collecting will be relegated to the underclass of "suspect" books. That to me is the biggest travesty in this whole situation.

 

Anyhow, it's great to hear your perspective on the matter - your voice of balance and reason in this discussion is very much appreciated (thumbs u

 

Joseph,

Just want to make sure you know, I was talking about non-certified comics. Once they are encapsulated, I would have a very hard time picking out certain "manipulation" or "restoration" methods if a book is in a slab and not raw in my hands.

 

If you are buying a certified book, you have to trust the people certifying them to catch "problem" books. That said, no matter how great a grader is, something will get by them once every so often.

 

Since there will always be crooks in our hobby (and every other hobby), no one is 100% safe, ever. You can buy a certified book and, out of a thousand, one might be badly pressed, reversed spine rolled, etc; but if you put a stigma on certified books and most people do not buy them, then you go back to buying from many, not all, people who will not be able to detect certain manipulations. The crooks will sell to those dealers and we go back to the days of collectors getting stuck with books they have no clue were worked on. Maybe ignorance is bliss. I don't know, but it seems we can't have it both ways, even though we would like to. No solution will ever be perfect.

 

Collectors must learn about any hobby before throwing big money into it. I point new collector to this board all the time as it is a great resource if you can get through the BS here.

 

I am sometimes afraid to send people to these boards because of mis-information and the rampant paranoia

 

Gotcha on the detectability of non-certified books. I guess if collectors hear it often enough, it might come to the point where books get cracked out to shake the negativity, or to have assessed by a second opinion or by someone with seasoned eyes. What I've seen happen in other hobbies is when suspicion cannot be properly managed without going to great lengths to authenticate, collectors just skip the hassles of chasing those pieces altogether. Which eventually leads to debasing some pretty amazing collectibles - even those of significant historical importance - and all because the crooks couldnt be held in check.

 

Thanks again Steve - I appreciate hearing your take on the situation (thumbs u

[DiceX]

 

They were individually trimmed.

They were trimmed after they were completely assembled, folded and stapled.

Trimming the three sides, individually, is the final step in production.

 

 

I disagree.

Just don't want to go into details......

 

Dice is not 100% wrong about how some places printed books at a certain time, but he is not 100% correct either.

 

Different companies at different times "cut and bound" books in different ways.

 

If memory serves, Dice has been very specifically referring to how the manufacturing process worked at the Sparta, Tennessee plant where Marvel comics were printed throughout most of the Silver Age superhero runs. So are you disputing how the folding and trimming process worked at Sparta specifically when you said you disagree with him? Your assertion above is unclear about that. If you didn't realize he was talking specifically about Sparta, you two could be in complete agreement.

 

It's Sparta, Illinois, but yes, this is the printing plant I am referring to.

 

 

[DiceX]

 

If memory serves, Dice has been very specifically referring to how the manufacturing process worked at the Sparta, Tennessee plant where Marvel comics were printed throughout most of the Silver Age superhero runs. So are you disputing how the folding and trimming process worked at Sparta specifically when you said you disagree with him? Your assertion above is unclear about that. If you didn't realize he was talking specifically about Sparta, you two could be in complete agreement.

 

I disgree that the early SA comics were were bound and cut the way he stated. That might be true of later books, but my gut, experience, and research tells me early SA was not done that way. Like I stated earlier, for reasons I had mentioned, I am not going into details about the different printing and binding processes.

 

We can discuss this later.

 

 

[greggy]

 

If memory serves, Dice has been very specifically referring to how the manufacturing process worked at the Sparta, Tennessee plant where Marvel comics were printed throughout most of the Silver Age superhero runs. So are you disputing how the folding and trimming process worked at Sparta specifically when you said you disagree with him? Your assertion above is unclear about that. If you didn't realize he was talking specifically about Sparta, you two could be in complete agreement.

 

I disgree that the early SA comics were were bound and cut the way he stated. That might be true of later books, but my gut, experience, and research tells me early SA was not done that way. Like I stated earlier, for reasons I had mentioned, I am not going into details about the different printing and binding processes.

 

We can discuss this later.

 

[kazoo]

 

Superior Comics at the very least, to name one 1950's publisher's books, usually have such a large cover 'overhang' on the right edge that it seems obvious that the covers and interiors were trimmed separately and later assembled/stapled.

[mrmyst]

 

If memory serves, Dice has been very specifically referring to how the manufacturing process worked at the Sparta, Tennessee plant where Marvel comics were printed throughout most of the Silver Age superhero runs. So are you disputing how the folding and trimming process worked at Sparta specifically when you said you disagree with him? Your assertion above is unclear about that. If you didn't realize he was talking specifically about Sparta, you two could be in complete agreement.

 

I disgree that the early SA comics were were bound and cut the way he stated. That might be true of later books, but my gut, experience, and research tells me early SA was not done that way. Like I stated earlier, for reasons I had mentioned, I am not going into details about the different printing and binding processes.

 

We can discuss this later.

 

 

Buzz off.

[slym2none]

 

If memory serves, Dice has been very specifically referring to how the manufacturing process worked at the Sparta, Tennessee plant where Marvel comics were printed throughout most of the Silver Age superhero runs. So are you disputing how the folding and trimming process worked at Sparta specifically when you said you disagree with him? Your assertion above is unclear about that. If you didn't realize he was talking specifically about Sparta, you two could be in complete agreement.

 

I disgree that the early SA comics were were bound and cut the way he stated. That might be true of later books, but my gut, experience, and research tells me early SA was not done that way. Like I stated earlier, for reasons I had mentioned, I am not going into details about the different printing and binding processes.

 

We can discuss this later.

 

 

I hope we are all privy to this upcoming discussion!

 

 

 

 

-slym

[sborock]

 

If memory serves, Dice has been very specifically referring to how the manufacturing process worked at the Sparta, Tennessee plant where Marvel comics were printed throughout most of the Silver Age superhero runs. So are you disputing how the folding and trimming process worked at Sparta specifically when you said you disagree with him? Your assertion above is unclear about that. If you didn't realize he was talking specifically about Sparta, you two could be in complete agreement.

 

I disgree that the early SA comics were were bound and cut the way he stated. That might be true of later books, but my gut, experience, and research tells me early SA was not done that way. Like I stated earlier, for reasons I had mentioned, I am not going into details about the different printing and binding processes.

 

We can discuss this later.

 

 

O.K., call me.....

[slym2none]

Ooh! Ooh!

 

 

What do you want him to call you??

 

::

 

 

 

-slym

[VintageComics]

Superior Comics at the very least, to name one 1950's publisher's books, usually have such a large cover 'overhang' on the right edge that it seems obvious that the covers and interiors were trimmed separately and later assembled/stapled.

 

I just looked at a couple of Superior Comics and didn't notice a very large overhang on them.

 

They could have been published more than one way.

[Logan510]

 

They were individually trimmed.

They were trimmed after they were completely assembled, folded and stapled.

Trimming the three sides, individually, is the final step in production.

 

 

I disagree.

Just don't want to go into details......

 

Dice is not 100% wrong about how some places printed books at a certain time, but he is not 100% correct either.

 

Different companies at different times "cut and bound" books in different ways.

 

If memory serves, Dice has been very specifically referring to how the manufacturing process worked at the Sparta, Tennessee plant where Marvel comics were printed throughout most of the Silver Age superhero runs. So are you disputing how the folding and trimming process worked at Sparta specifically when you said you disagree with him? Your assertion above is unclear about that. If you didn't realize he was talking specifically about Sparta, you two could be in complete agreement.

 

I thought they were printed in Sparta, IL

 

Edit: Missed Dice's correction upthread.

[blazingbob]

[DiceX]

After a long discussion with Steve Borock last night, we have determined two things...

1. It is a very interesting topic.

2. We have a lot more to discuss about it.

 

 

[jimjum12]

After a long discussion with Steve Borock last night, we have determined two things...

1. It is a very interesting topic.

2. We have a lot more to discuss about it.

 

 

..... This post is useless without audio transcripts GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[VintageComics]

After a long discussion with Steve Borock last night, we have determined two things...

1. It is a very interesting topic.

2. We have a lot more to discuss about it.

 

 

Would love to hear some details if time allows!

[Davenport]

After a long discussion with Steve Borock last night, we have determined two things...

1. It is a very interesting topic.

2. We have a lot more to discuss about it.

 

 

Would love to hear some details if time allows!

No way. You just hit the 'secret sauce" wall.

 

This is the same level of knowledge Hammer was alluding to when picking out the Ewert trims. Some unreal understanding of exactly where and how issues where manufactured and the traits of each. Apparently that kind of information has competitive value and held very close to the chest.

 

Refurbishing processes = secret sauce

Professional grading criteria = secret sauce

Original manufacturing processes and identifiers = secret sauce

 

Seems to be where the hobby's at. What isn't proprietary info, at that 'everyman' participant level, is the Grade Label and how much the asking price is. Beyond that, good luck.

 

 

 

[VintageComics]

After a long discussion with Steve Borock last night, we have determined two things...

1. It is a very interesting topic.

2. We have a lot more to discuss about it.

 

 

Would love to hear some details if time allows!

No way. You just hit the 'secret sauce" wall.

 

 

It's secret sauce to want to know how and when overhang appears?

 

Hammer seemed to spend a lot of time posturing and trying to disparage people and things, and since he was involved with fraud (meaning, making a living off of lying) it makes it impossible to believe everything he says.

 

Some stuff that he said was very true but that seemed like he was just 'salting the mine' to get the untruth to pass under camouflage.

 

From what I was able to gather about Hammer, a lot of his posting was often just posturing of half truths to rile up the masses and deflect the attention from himself.

 

The info about production is out there and not a secret.