Cole Schave collection: face jobs?

[fantastic_four]

After a long discussion with Steve Borock last night, we have determined two things...

1. It is a very interesting topic.

2. We have a lot more to discuss about it.

 

Was your friend who worked at Sparta in the 1960s at work during the full Marvel superhero run there, or could perhaps he have started more around the mid 1960s? Perhaps Steve is right that their folding and trimming process changed at some point during the big Marvel superhero run years.

 

What's the latest Marvel year (or issue and title) you guys have seen top/bottom overhang on? I can't remember myself, I'll have to study some books.

[fantastic_four]

It's secret sauce to want to know how and when overhang appears?

 

Hammer seemed to spend a lot of time posturing and trying to disparage people and things, and since he was involved with fraud (meaning, making a living off of lying) it makes it impossible to believe everything he says.

 

Some stuff that he said was very true but that seemed like he was just 'salting the mine' to get the untruth to pass under camouflage.

 

From what I was able to gather about Hammer, a lot of his posting was often just posturing of half truths to rile up the masses and deflect the attention from himself.

 

The info about production is out there and not a secret.

 

Dupcak is the best at weaving together truth with disinformation I've personally encountered. Or, if you prefer, the worst, since most people aren't good at it because we wouldn't want to do it in the first place.

[VintageComics]

What's the latest Marvel year (or issue and title) you guys have seen top/bottom overhang on? I can't remember myself, I'll have to study some books.

 

I mentioned my experiences with overhang earlier in the thread but it might be worth repeating: seems to be Marvels from about 1962 - 1966/67/68 where overhang was most prevalent although I have seen it on some DCs.

 

At some point around 1967, Marvel comics seem to take on a different feel and look to them. I'd have to take a physical look at a succession of issues across that '66-'68 range to see exactly when and how it changed over but it's pretty evident to me that a 1966 cover is manufactured on very different paper than 1968 books.

 

The ink on the later books don't 'crack' along the spine apex the way the earlier books do and there seems to be much less Marvel pre-chipping on the later books (and less overhang), leading me to believe that the quality of paper and ink seems to be changed.

 

 

[fantastic_four]

What's the latest Marvel year (or issue and title) you guys have seen top/bottom overhang on? I can't remember myself, I'll have to study some books.

 

I mentioned my experiences with overhang earlier in the thread but it might be worth repeating: seems to be Marvels from about 1962 - 1966/67/68 where overhang was most prevalent although I have seen it on some DCs.

 

At some point around 1967, Marvel comics seem to take on a different feel and look to them. I'd have to take a physical look at a succession of issues across that '66-'68 range to see exactly when and how it changed over but it's pretty evident to me that a 1966 cover is manufactured on very different paper than 1968 books.

 

The ink on the later books don't 'crack' along the spine apex the way the earlier books do and there seems to be much less Marvel pre-chipping on the later books (and less overhang), leading me to believe that the quality of paper and ink seems to be changed.

 

'62 to '68 would be the whole Marvel Silver run given that FF #1 is dated November 1961. They switched to a new printer in '68 starting with Cap 100/Hulk 102/Iron Man and Subby 1/Iron Man 1/etc. Stan has talked about it multiple times, with their reason for doing it being that their previous printer limited them to around six total titles per month, so they switched to be able to put more titles out.

[Davenport]

After a long discussion with Steve Borock last night, we have determined two things...

1. It is a very interesting topic.

2. We have a lot more to discuss about it.

 

 

Would love to hear some details if time allows!

No way. You just hit the 'secret sauce" wall.

 

 

It's secret sauce to want to know how and when overhang appears?

 

Hammer seemed to spend a lot of time posturing and trying to disparage people and things, and since he was involved with fraud (meaning, making a living off of lying) it makes it impossible to believe everything he says.

 

Some stuff that he said was very true but that seemed like he was just 'salting the mine' to get the untruth to pass under camouflage.

 

From what I was able to gather about Hammer, a lot of his posting was often just posturing of half truths to rile up the masses and deflect the attention from himself.

 

The info about production is out there and not a secret.

What part of "it's how I make my living" did you not understand?

One on one, if a good friend, for charity? Did you read all that? It has value, like the man said..

 

Anyway, whatever you learn, be sure and share it here in full detail. 'K? (thumbs u

[VintageComics]

What's the latest Marvel year (or issue and title) you guys have seen top/bottom overhang on? I can't remember myself, I'll have to study some books.

 

I mentioned my experiences with overhang earlier in the thread but it might be worth repeating: seems to be Marvels from about 1962 - 1966/67/68 where overhang was most prevalent although I have seen it on some DCs.

 

At some point around 1967, Marvel comics seem to take on a different feel and look to them. I'd have to take a physical look at a succession of issues across that '66-'68 range to see exactly when and how it changed over but it's pretty evident to me that a 1966 cover is manufactured on very different paper than 1968 books.

 

The ink on the later books don't 'crack' along the spine apex the way the earlier books do and there seems to be much less Marvel pre-chipping on the later books (and less overhang), leading me to believe that the quality of paper and ink seems to be changed.

 

'62 to '68 would be the whole Marvel Silver run given that FF #1 is dated November 1961. They switched to a new printer in '68 starting with Cap 100/Hulk 102/Iron Man and Subby 1/Iron Man 1/etc. Stan has talked about it multiple times, with their reason for doing it being that their previous printer limited them to around six total titles per month, so they switched to be able to put more titles out.

 

Yup, just pointing out that there was a noticeable, physical change.

 

The DC books with overhang do seem to be scarcer but they do appear, although in my experience they tend to be earlier books (late 1950's and early 1960's) and by the time Marvel was in full swing n the early 1960's DC seemed to switch to different cover stock and inks for their books.

[VintageComics]

What part of "it's how I make my living" did you not understand?

One on one, if a good friend, for charity? Did you read all that? It has value, like the man said..

 

You put a nefarious spin on it by bringing Dupcack into the conversation so I assumed that was your angle.

 

Anyway, whatever you learn, be sure and share it here in full detail. 'K? (thumbs u

 

Pretty sure I've been doing that all along.

[Davenport]

What part of "it's how I make my living" did you not understand?

One on one, if a good friend, for charity? Did you read all that? It has value, like the man said..

 

You put a nefarious spin on it by bringing Dupcack into the conversation so I assumed that was your angle.

 

Anyway, whatever you learn, be sure and share it here in full detail. 'K? (thumbs u

 

Pretty sure I've been doing that all along.

*sigh*

I only brought Hammer into it because he had that exact same knowledge/skill level. No " nefarious spin". (good grief)

 

That ninja-level of recognition and detection would absolutely have some competitive value. Or, how was it put?, 'giving thousands away' by sharing it. So all I was doing was adding it to the hobby-list of proprietary knowledge.

[THE_BEYONDER]

What part of "it's how I make my living" did you not understand?

One on one, if a good friend, for charity? Did you read all that? It has value, like the man said..

 

You put a nefarious spin on it by bringing Dupcack into the conversation so I assumed that was your angle.

 

Anyway, whatever you learn, be sure and share it here in full detail. 'K? (thumbs u

 

Pretty sure I've been doing that all along.

*sigh*

I only brought Hammer into it because he had that exact same knowledge/skill level. No " nefarious spin". (good grief)

 

That ninja-level of recognition and detection would absolutely have some competitive value. Or, how was it put?, 'giving thousands away' by sharing it. So all I was doing was adding it to the hobby-list of proprietary knowledge.

 

To simplify for the purposely dense: Sometimes it takes a thief to catch a thief.

[VintageComics]

That ninja-level of recognition and detection would absolutely have some competitive value. Or, how was it put?, 'giving thousands away' by sharing it. So all I was doing was adding it to the hobby-list of proprietary knowledge.

 

Fair enough. See how easily misunderstandings happen?

 

[VintageComics]

To simplify for the purposely dense:

 

How would you simplify it for the purposely arrogant?

[THE_BEYONDER]

To simplify for the purposely dense:

 

How would you simplify it for the purposely arrogant?

 

I'd use a shovel

[Davenport]

That ninja-level of recognition and detection would absolutely have some competitive value. Or, how was it put?, 'giving thousands away' by sharing it. So all I was doing was adding it to the hobby-list of proprietary knowledge.

 

Fair enough. See how easily misunderstandings happen?

 

Oh, and just pointing out the "Catch-22" stance that shows up so often.

Anyone entering the hobby should educate themselves....well, except for that. That's proprietary, sorry.

 

Bizarre hobby, this.

[THE_BEYONDER]

That ninja-level of recognition and detection would absolutely have some competitive value. Or, how was it put?, 'giving thousands away' by sharing it. So all I was doing was adding it to the hobby-list of proprietary knowledge.

 

Fair enough. See how easily misunderstandings happen?

 

Oh, and just pointing out the "Catch-22" stance that shows up so often.

Anyone entering the hobby should educate themselves....well, except for that. That's proprietary, sorry.

 

Bizarre hobby, this.

 

Bizarre in that it remains unregulated. Blows my mind sometimes that CGC has basically created a dictatorship.

[Ogami]

That ninja-level of recognition and detection would absolutely have some competitive value. Or, how was it put?, 'giving thousands away' by sharing it. So all I was doing was adding it to the hobby-list of proprietary knowledge.

 

Fair enough. See how easily misunderstandings happen?

 

Oh, and just pointing out the "Catch-22" stance that shows up so often.

Anyone entering the hobby should educate themselves....well, except for that. That's proprietary, sorry.

 

Bizarre hobby, this.

 

This is a really great point.

[VintageComics]

That ninja-level of recognition and detection would absolutely have some competitive value. Or, how was it put?, 'giving thousands away' by sharing it. So all I was doing was adding it to the hobby-list of proprietary knowledge.

 

Fair enough. See how easily misunderstandings happen?

 

Oh, and just pointing out the "Catch-22" stance that shows up so often.

Anyone entering the hobby should educate themselves....well, except for that. That's proprietary, sorry.

 

Bizarre hobby, this.

 

This is a really great point.

 

It is a good point.

 

It's worth pointing out though, that everyone puts the "proprietary" line at a different point.

 

For example, there are production defects that some people might mistake for reader wear (and avoid the book altogether, making it more profitable for someone else who knows better) but I generally point those out in discussions.

[sborock]

After a long discussion with Steve Borock last night, we have determined two things...

1. It is a very interesting topic.

2. We have a lot more to discuss about it.

 

 

Would love to hear some details if time allows!

No way. You just hit the 'secret sauce" wall.

 

This is the same level of knowledge Hammer was alluding to when picking out the Ewert trims. Some unreal understanding of exactly where and how issues where manufactured and the traits of each. Apparently that kind of information has competitive value and held very close to the chest.

 

Refurbishing processes = secret sauce

Professional grading criteria = secret sauce

Original manufacturing processes and identifiers = secret sauce

 

Seems to be where the hobby's at. What isn't proprietary info, at that 'everyman' participant level, is the Grade Label and how much the asking price is. Beyond that, good luck.

 

 

 

As to what I know and you don't: Please put in the same amount of effort in research and learning that I did and you will know what I know. The info is out there and you can spend your time on this if it is that important to you. Very simple.

 

Once again, this is how I feed my family and keep a roof over our heads.

I also stated that I don't enjoy posting certain info because it helps the crooks get better at doing what they do.

What problem do you have with those two points?

 

This kind of post is why I don't post much anymore. I hate having to defend myself for no good reason and I just love having my name associated with Hammer. Yeah, I'm just like him.

 

 

[Davenport]

After a long discussion with Steve Borock last night, we have determined two things...

1. It is a very interesting topic.

2. We have a lot more to discuss about it.

 

 

Would love to hear some details if time allows!

No way. You just hit the 'secret sauce" wall.

 

This is the same level of knowledge Hammer was alluding to when picking out the Ewert trims. Some unreal understanding of exactly where and how issues where manufactured and the traits of each. Apparently that kind of information has competitive value and held very close to the chest.

 

Refurbishing processes = secret sauce

Professional grading criteria = secret sauce

Original manufacturing processes and identifiers = secret sauce

 

Seems to be where the hobby's at. What isn't proprietary info, at that 'everyman' participant level, is the Grade Label and how much the asking price is. Beyond that, good luck.

 

 

 

As to what I know and you don't: Please put in the same amount of effort in research and learning that I did and you will know what I know. The info is out there and you can spend your time on this if it is that important to you. Very simple.

 

Once again, this is how I feed my family and keep a roof over our heads.

I also stated that I don't enjoy posting certain info because it helps the crooks get better at doing what they do.

What problem do you have with those two points?

 

This kind of post is why I don't post much anymore. I hate having to defend myself for no good reason and I just love having my name associated with Hammer. Yeah, I'm just like him.

 

Wow. Ok. My post was in no way derogatory. There was no "name associated with Hammer". (go back and notice your name was purposefully not even mentioned) And aside from that I remember some old post where you said yourself you would've hired Hammer on the spot if he wasn't such a crook. And I referred to Hammer because of that uncanny skill level of his, in the context of understanding manufacturing traits and anomalies.

 

There's really nothing to defend yourself from in my post. I understand fully the 'it's your livelihood' point. And I apologize if I offended you in any way.

 

 

 

[batman_fan]

After a long discussion with Steve Borock last night, we have determined two things...

1. It is a very interesting topic.

2. We have a lot more to discuss about it.

 

 

Would love to hear some details if time allows!

No way. You just hit the 'secret sauce" wall.

 

This is the same level of knowledge Hammer was alluding to when picking out the Ewert trims. Some unreal understanding of exactly where and how issues where manufactuBured and the traits of each. Apparently that kind of information has competitive value and held very close to the chest.

 

Refurbishing processes = secret sauce

Professional grading criteria = secret sauce

Original manufacturing processes and identifiers = secret sauce

 

Seems to be where the hobby's at. What isn't propri (thumbs u etary info, at that 'everyman' participant level, is the Grade Label and how much the asking price is. Beyond that, good luck.

 

 

 

As to what I know and you don't: Please put in the same amount of effort in research and learning that I did and you will know what I know. The info is out there and you can spend your time on this if it is that important to you. Very simple.

 

Once again, this is how I feed my family and keep a roof over our heads.

I also stated that I don't enjoy posting certain info because it helps the crooks get better at doing what they do.

What problem do you have with those two points?

 

This kind of post is why I don't post much anymore. I hate having to defend myself for no good reason and I just love having my name associated with Hammer. Yeah, I'm just like him.

 

 

Hey Steve, I don't think anyone associates you with Hammer. You both have certain knowledge others don't. He just uses his in a negative way. Think of it this way

 

Steve B = Captain America

Hammer = Red Skull

 

 

[slym2none]

That ninja-level of recognition and detection would absolutely have some competitive value. Or, how was it put?, 'giving thousands away' by sharing it. So all I was doing was adding it to the hobby-list of proprietary knowledge.

 

Fair enough. See how easily misunderstandings happen?

 

Oh, and just pointing out the "Catch-22" stance that shows up so often.

Anyone entering the hobby should educate themselves....well, except for that. That's proprietary, sorry.

 

Bizarre hobby, this.

 

This is a really great point.

 

QFP

 

 

 

-slym