Cole Schave collection: face jobs?

[BEAUMONTS]

Sorry, did not mean to do a "post and run". My daughter called me to come pick her up from Sunday night youth group and I needed to make her some dinner before bed. (School night)

 

Dice is not 100% wrong about how some places printed books at a certain time, but he is not 100% correct either.

 

Different companies at different times "cut and bound" books in different ways.

 

It's scary to me that collectors will now think that any book that was maufactured with a short cover or a crooked cover is now trimmed or pressed incorrectly.

 

I can tell the difference between a "Cosanza" book and one that is not, most of the time.

I can tell when a book is trimmed most of the time. (A perfect micro trimming is almost impossible to detect without before and after scans, I don't care what anyone says, it's a 50/50 guess. I (we) will have to live with that, if we want to keep buying books from most dealers and collectors.)

I can tell if a book has lost gloss from presssing or just natural causes, most of the time.

I can tell if a book was solvent washed, most of the time.

I can tell if a book has "reverse" spine roll, most of the time.

 

There's more, but I think you folks get what I am trying to say. I also made sure I wrote "most of the time", because no one catches these things 100% of the time. No one. Also, new ways of screwing with a book seem to come to light every year. And, yes, many times, it all because of money. I have not had a problem with pressing since I found out about it in the 80's. I do have a problem with people going the "extra mile" to "squeeze" more money out of a book by pushing the pressing to the point that the book no longer looks natural, or worse, ruins the book.

 

For the people on the boards that don't know me:

I am not "thumping my chest" and I am not posting this like "I can weight lift x number of pounds", "I am a martial arts expert", and all those other things people say on the boards to "prove themselves".

 

I just keep shaking my head reading some of the stuff posted as fact by some here, even some high end players. Thing's like "Marvel over-hangs were not there when the books were bought off the shelves." (BS!) and other things like that.

 

I grew up in a printing family, as well as worked in printing, on and off most of my life, until I was twenty-two. I have also collected and studied comics since I can remember. Getting ripped off by buying restored as un-restored, helped me learn quite a bit. I have had "trial by fire" when I helped open CGC and was the their orignal restoration detection expert and primary grader (finalizer).

 

I have, and always will, help collectors and dealers with a free restoration check at conventions. I have saved many people thousands of dollars, many that are on, or used to be on, these boards. I used to give away my detection methods for free, as I thought I was helping the hobby. I probably was, but I was also costing myself a fortune and teaching some people how to "not get caught". That's why I no longer come into these threads and explain whyI think someone is right or wrong. I would also get sucked into debates with people that have no agenda other than pushing peoples buttons. I don't need mine pushed. So, now, If I work one on one with someone, I will sometimes show them how to detect certain things. If it's a great friend, I will help them out with some detection methods. I will also do it if $ is donated to charity (one of my choice).

 

Anyway, it's a shame that these books got damaged by the presser and missed by CGC. mess happens.

 

Be aware, just don't be too paranoid. It will hurt the fun you have in this great hobby, and that's waaaaaay worse than a properly pressed or properly dry cleaned book.

 

End of

 

Very nice. Maybe this "fun" thing you speak of will grow throughout the land.

Amen (thumbs u

[comicwiz]

Sorry, did not mean to do a "post and run". My daughter called me to come pick her up from Sunday night youth group and I needed to make her some dinner before bed. (School night)

 

Dice is not 100% wrong about how some places printed books at a certain time, but he is not 100% correct either.

 

Different companies at different times "cut and bound" books in different ways.

 

It's scary to me that collectors will now think that any book that was maufactured with a short cover or a crooked cover is now trimmed or pressed incorrectly.

 

I can tell the difference between a "Cosanza" book and one that is not, most of the time.

I can tell when a book is trimmed most of the time. (A perfect micro trimming is almost impossible to detect without before and after scans, I don't care what anyone says, it's a 50/50 guess. I (we) will have to live with that, if we want to keep buying books from most dealers and collectors.)

I can tell if a book has lost gloss from presssing or just natural causes, most of the time.

I can tell if a book was solvent washed, most of the time.

I can tell if a book has "reverse" spine roll, most of the time.

 

There's more, but I think you folks get what I am trying to say. I also made sure I wrote "most of the time", because no one catches these things 100% of the time. No one. Also, new ways of screwing with a book seem to come to light every year. And, yes, many times, it all because of money. I have not had a problem with pressing since I found out about it in the 80's. I do have a problem with people going the "extra mile" to "squeeze" more money out of a book by pushing the pressing to the point that the book no longer looks natural, or worse, ruins the book.

 

For the people on the boards that don't know me:

I am not "thumping my chest" and I am not posting this like "I can weight lift x number of pounds", "I am a martial arts expert", and all those other things people say on the boards to "prove themselves".

 

I just keep shaking my head reading some of the stuff posted as fact by some here, even some high end players. Thing's like "Marvel over-hangs were not there when the books were bought off the shelves." (BS!) and other things like that.

 

I grew up in a printing family, as well as worked in printing, on and off most of my life, until I was twenty-two. I have also collected and studied comics since I can remember. Getting ripped off by buying restored as un-restored, helped me learn quite a bit. I have had "trial by fire" when I helped open CGC and was the their orignal restoration detection expert and primary grader (finalizer).

 

I have, and always will, help collectors and dealers with a free restoration check at conventions. I have saved many people thousands of dollars, many that are on, or used to be on, these boards. I used to give away my detection methods for free, as I thought I was helping the hobby. I probably was, but I was also costing myself a fortune and teaching some people how to "not get caught". That's why I no longer come into these threads and explain whyI think someone is right or wrong. I would also get sucked into debates with people that have no agenda other than pushing peoples buttons. I don't need mine pushed. So, now, If I work one on one with someone, I will sometimes show them how to detect certain things. If it's a great friend, I will help them out with some detection methods. I will also do it if $ is donated to charity (one of my choice).

 

Anyway, it's a shame that these books got damaged by the presser and missed by CGC. mess happens.

 

Be aware, just don't be too paranoid. It will hurt the fun you have in this great hobby, and that's waaaaaay worse than a properly pressed or properly dry cleaned book.

 

End of

 

Thanks Steve!

 

I think a lot of the points you raise speak to the issues, but some leave open-ended questions. It's been some time since the discussion about a third-party assessing certified books was brought up here on the boards, but seeing your points about being able to identify these tweaks "most" of the time, I think the notion, if not the exact function, of companies like CVA seem to carry more merit in light of RSR and Costanza books passing through undetected. To be clear, I'm not suggesting CVA in it's current iteration, but on the platform of offering an assessment on undisclosed work, I see some benefit to a secondary opinion on slabs.

 

As I see it, no one needs to be more informed than the sellers that their certified books show signs of Costanza or RSR, and finding out from a seasoned pro like yourself at a show or during a transaction would be a confidence breaker. Where's the fun in being told a book you thought was one grade, isn't because it's been over graded, or that a controversial (and mostly negatively perceived) manipulation technique was used to attain the grade? Have this happen enough, and I think it could turn out to be a deal-breaker as far as people seeing the merit of having books certified.

 

The other misnomer in this whole situation is ranking these misses as evolving collector preferences whittling out defects no longer perceived as being tolerable to refined collecting tastes. We saw books with cream pages, miswrap or too much white on the spine, off-centering and other production traits showing a wider value disparity over the years when compared to the books in the exact same grade not revealing the same production problems. There is a marked difference between books produced in such a manner, and books which did not exhibit Costanza or RSR prior to someone manhandling them and creating those defects. I'm not suggesting you spoke on this, but I want to make it clear that part of my complaint from the beginning is that this brand of manipulation is blending-in way too easily into the discussion and perception problems of "production defects" when this couldn't be further from the truth.

 

Ultimately, this leads to the problem that it's taking the wind out of the sails from collectors who otherwise had no reason to worry or care about pressing because now books they have been collecting will be relegated to the underclass of "suspect" books. That to me is the biggest travesty in this whole situation.

 

Anyhow, it's great to hear your perspective on the matter - your voice of balance and reason in this discussion is very much appreciated (thumbs u

[Timely]

Sorry, did not mean to do a "post and run". My daughter called me to come pick her up from Sunday night youth group and I needed to make her some dinner before bed. (School night)

 

Dice is not 100% wrong about how some places printed books at a certain time, but he is not 100% correct either.

 

Different companies at different times "cut and bound" books in different ways.

 

It's scary to me that collectors will now think that any book that was maufactured with a short cover or a crooked cover is now trimmed or pressed incorrectly.

 

I can tell the difference between a "Cosanza" book and one that is not, most of the time.

I can tell when a book is trimmed most of the time. (A perfect micro trimming is almost impossible to detect without before and after scans, I don't care what anyone says, it's a 50/50 guess. I (we) will have to live with that, if we want to keep buying books from most dealers and collectors.)

I can tell if a book has lost gloss from presssing or just natural causes, most of the time.

I can tell if a book was solvent washed, most of the time.

I can tell if a book has "reverse" spine roll, most of the time.

 

There's more, but I think you folks get what I am trying to say. I also made sure I wrote "most of the time", because no one catches these things 100% of the time. No one. Also, new ways of screwing with a book seem to come to light every year. And, yes, many times, it all because of money. I have not had a problem with pressing since I found out about it in the 80's. I do have a problem with people going the "extra mile" to "squeeze" more money out of a book by pushing the pressing to the point that the book no longer looks natural, or worse, ruins the book.

 

For the people on the boards that don't know me:

I am not "thumping my chest" and I am not posting this like "I can weight lift x number of pounds", "I am a martial arts expert", and all those other things people say on the boards to "prove themselves".

 

I just keep shaking my head reading some of the stuff posted as fact by some here, even some high end players. Thing's like "Marvel over-hangs were not there when the books were bought off the shelves." (BS!) and other things like that.

 

I grew up in a printing family, as well as worked in printing, on and off most of my life, until I was twenty-two. I have also collected and studied comics since I can remember. Getting ripped off by buying restored as un-restored, helped me learn quite a bit. I have had "trial by fire" when I helped open CGC and was the their orignal restoration detection expert and primary grader (finalizer).

 

I have, and always will, help collectors and dealers with a free restoration check at conventions. I have saved many people thousands of dollars, many that are on, or used to be on, these boards. I used to give away my detection methods for free, as I thought I was helping the hobby. I probably was, but I was also costing myself a fortune and teaching some people how to "not get caught". That's why I no longer come into these threads and explain whyI think someone is right or wrong. I would also get sucked into debates with people that have no agenda other than pushing peoples buttons. I don't need mine pushed. So, now, If I work one on one with someone, I will sometimes show them how to detect certain things. If it's a great friend, I will help them out with some detection methods. I will also do it if $ is donated to charity (one of my choice).

 

Anyway, it's a shame that these books got damaged by the presser and missed by CGC. mess happens.

 

Be aware, just don't be too paranoid. It will hurt the fun you have in this great hobby, and that's waaaaaay worse than a properly pressed or properly dry cleaned book.

 

End of

 

Thanks Steve!

 

I think a lot of the points you raise speak to the issues, but some leave open-ended questions. It's been some time since the discussion about a third-party assessing certified books was brought up here on the boards, but seeing your points about being able to identify these tweaks "most" of the time, I think the notion, if not the exact function, of companies like CVA seem to carry more merit in light of RSR and Costanza books passing through undetected. To be clear, I'm not suggesting CVA in it's current iteration, but on the platform of offering an assessment on undisclosed work, I see some benefit to a secondary opinion on slabs.

 

As I see it, no one needs to be more informed than the sellers that their certified books show signs of Costanza or RSR, and finding out from a seasoned pro like yourself at a show or during a transaction would be a confidence breaker. Where's the fun in being told a book you thought was one grade, isn't because it's been over graded, or that a controversial (and mostly negatively perceived) manipulation technique was used to attain the grade? Have this happen enough, and I think it could turn out to be a deal-breaker as far as people seeing the merit of having books certified.

 

The other misnomer in this whole situation is ranking these misses as evolving collector preferences whittling out defects no longer perceived as being tolerable to refined collecting tastes. We saw books with cream pages, miswrap or too much white on the spine, off-centering and other production traits showing a wider value disparity over the years when compared to the books in the exact same grade not revealing the same production problems. There is a marked difference between books produced in such a manner, and books which did not exhibit Costanza or RSR prior to someone manhandling them and creating those defects. I'm not suggesting you spoke on this, but I want to make it clear that part of my complaint from the beginning is that this brand of manipulation is blending-in way too easily into the discussion and perception problems of "production defects" when this couldn't be further from the truth.

 

Ultimately, this leads to the problem that it's taking the wind out of the sails from collectors who otherwise had no reason to worry or care about pressing because now books they have been collecting will be relegated to the underclass of "suspect" books. That to me is the biggest travesty in this whole situation.

 

Anyhow, it's great to hear your perspective on the matter - your voice of balance and reason in this discussion is very much appreciated (thumbs u

 

Sometimes I think collectors are more obsessed about manufacturing defects than they are post-manufacturing defects such as tears, creases, stains, etc. Are we becoming like baseball card collectors, where a card needs to be perfectly cut and centered to have value and collectibility? I see more and more collectors passing on near perfect comics because they want a better perfectly manufactured comic. The comic book printing process is far more complicated than cards, which is basically cardboard sheets cut on 4 sides. Most (99.999%) vintage comics were never printed 100% perfectly. As a high grade collector of comics for decades, I certainly understand desire to want books that are as nice as they appeared on the newsstands, but if I wanted comics that are better than newsstand condition I know my collection would be less than 20 books.

[comicwiz]

Sorry, did not mean to do a "post and run". My daughter called me to come pick her up from Sunday night youth group and I needed to make her some dinner before bed. (School night)

 

Dice is not 100% wrong about how some places printed books at a certain time, but he is not 100% correct either.

 

Different companies at different times "cut and bound" books in different ways.

 

It's scary to me that collectors will now think that any book that was maufactured with a short cover or a crooked cover is now trimmed or pressed incorrectly.

 

I can tell the difference between a "Cosanza" book and one that is not, most of the time.

I can tell when a book is trimmed most of the time. (A perfect micro trimming is almost impossible to detect without before and after scans, I don't care what anyone says, it's a 50/50 guess. I (we) will have to live with that, if we want to keep buying books from most dealers and collectors.)

I can tell if a book has lost gloss from presssing or just natural causes, most of the time.

I can tell if a book was solvent washed, most of the time.

I can tell if a book has "reverse" spine roll, most of the time.

 

There's more, but I think you folks get what I am trying to say. I also made sure I wrote "most of the time", because no one catches these things 100% of the time. No one. Also, new ways of screwing with a book seem to come to light every year. And, yes, many times, it all because of money. I have not had a problem with pressing since I found out about it in the 80's. I do have a problem with people going the "extra mile" to "squeeze" more money out of a book by pushing the pressing to the point that the book no longer looks natural, or worse, ruins the book.

 

For the people on the boards that don't know me:

I am not "thumping my chest" and I am not posting this like "I can weight lift x number of pounds", "I am a martial arts expert", and all those other things people say on the boards to "prove themselves".

 

I just keep shaking my head reading some of the stuff posted as fact by some here, even some high end players. Thing's like "Marvel over-hangs were not there when the books were bought off the shelves." (BS!) and other things like that.

 

I grew up in a printing family, as well as worked in printing, on and off most of my life, until I was twenty-two. I have also collected and studied comics since I can remember. Getting ripped off by buying restored as un-restored, helped me learn quite a bit. I have had "trial by fire" when I helped open CGC and was the their orignal restoration detection expert and primary grader (finalizer).

 

I have, and always will, help collectors and dealers with a free restoration check at conventions. I have saved many people thousands of dollars, many that are on, or used to be on, these boards. I used to give away my detection methods for free, as I thought I was helping the hobby. I probably was, but I was also costing myself a fortune and teaching some people how to "not get caught". That's why I no longer come into these threads and explain whyI think someone is right or wrong. I would also get sucked into debates with people that have no agenda other than pushing peoples buttons. I don't need mine pushed. So, now, If I work one on one with someone, I will sometimes show them how to detect certain things. If it's a great friend, I will help them out with some detection methods. I will also do it if $ is donated to charity (one of my choice).

 

Anyway, it's a shame that these books got damaged by the presser and missed by CGC. mess happens.

 

Be aware, just don't be too paranoid. It will hurt the fun you have in this great hobby, and that's waaaaaay worse than a properly pressed or properly dry cleaned book.

 

End of

 

Thanks Steve!

 

I think a lot of the points you raise speak to the issues, but some leave open-ended questions. It's been some time since the discussion about a third-party assessing certified books was brought up here on the boards, but seeing your points about being able to identify these tweaks "most" of the time, I think the notion, if not the exact function, of companies like CVA seem to carry more merit in light of RSR and Costanza books passing through undetected. To be clear, I'm not suggesting CVA in it's current iteration, but on the platform of offering an assessment on undisclosed work, I see some benefit to a secondary opinion on slabs.

 

As I see it, no one needs to be more informed than the sellers that their certified books show signs of Costanza or RSR, and finding out from a seasoned pro like yourself at a show or during a transaction would be a confidence breaker. Where's the fun in being told a book you thought was one grade, isn't because it's been over graded, or that a controversial (and mostly negatively perceived) manipulation technique was used to attain the grade? Have this happen enough, and I think it could turn out to be a deal-breaker as far as people seeing the merit of having books certified.

 

The other misnomer in this whole situation is ranking these misses as evolving collector preferences whittling out defects no longer perceived as being tolerable to refined collecting tastes. We saw books with cream pages, miswrap or too much white on the spine, off-centering and other production traits showing a wider value disparity over the years when compared to the books in the exact same grade not revealing the same production problems. There is a marked difference between books produced in such a manner, and books which did not exhibit Costanza or RSR prior to someone manhandling them and creating those defects. I'm not suggesting you spoke on this, but I want to make it clear that part of my complaint from the beginning is that this brand of manipulation is blending-in way too easily into the discussion and perception problems of "production defects" when this couldn't be further from the truth.

 

Ultimately, this leads to the problem that it's taking the wind out of the sails from collectors who otherwise had no reason to worry or care about pressing because now books they have been collecting will be relegated to the underclass of "suspect" books. That to me is the biggest travesty in this whole situation.

 

Anyhow, it's great to hear your perspective on the matter - your voice of balance and reason in this discussion is very much appreciated (thumbs u

 

Sometimes I think collectors are more obsessed about manufacturing defects than they are post-manufacturing defects such as tears, creases, stains, etc. Are we becoming like baseball card collectors, where a card needs to be perfectly cut and centered to have value and collectibility? I see more and more collectors passing on near perfect comics because they want a better perfectly manufactured comic. The comic book printing process is far more complicated than cards, which is basically cardboard sheets cut on 4 sides. Most (99.999%) vintage comics were never printed 100% perfectly. As a high grade collector of comics for decades, I certainly understand desire to want books that are as nice as they appeared on the newsstands, but if I wanted comics that are better than newsstand condition I know my collection would be less than 20 books.

 

I agree. For me, a lot of it comes down to a case-by-case thing. For instance, I wouldn't be so discriminate in seeking out perfect page quality on Underground Comix because of the differences in paper quality and printing standards when compared to mainstream publishers, and because the early prints were pretty much made by hand. I think where collector tastes and preferences begins to vary most with mileage is when there is an ample population, where the trickling effect would be superior copies attaining the lion share of value and percentage gain. However too much can come in the way of realizing that value differential, as we are talking about paper ephemera, which can be susceptible to aging and long-term degradation, and the fact that beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

[Davenport]

Sometimes I think collectors are more obsessed about manufacturing defects than they are post-manufacturing defects such as tears, creases, stains, etc. Are we becoming like baseball card collectors, where a card needs to be perfectly cut and centered to have value and collectibility? I see more and more collectors passing on near perfect comics because they want a better perfectly manufactured comic. The comic book printing process is far more complicated than cards, which is basically cardboard sheets cut on 4 sides. Most (99.999%) vintage comics were never printed 100% perfectly. As a high grade collector of comics for decades, I certainly understand desire to want books that are as nice as they appeared on the newsstands, but if I wanted comics that are better than newsstand condition I know my collection would be less than 20 books.

Don't you think it's predictable bleed-over from teaching the hobby to be so grade-centric? If you want a client-base to obsess over miniscule paper creases, waves and curls, to the point of paying to have them pressed out, odds are those clients will also develop an unnatural obsession towards imperfections across the board, regardless of how they came to be.

 

And why it's so ironic that after cultivating all that focus, effort and fees toward clients seeking perfection, the holder could have a "puddling" problem. Unreal.

 

I don't think obsession behaves like that, turned on and off at will. Clients obsessed with imperfections are going to do just that, full spectrum.

[comicwiz]

Sometimes I think collectors are more obsessed about manufacturing defects than they are post-manufacturing defects such as tears, creases, stains, etc. Are we becoming like baseball card collectors, where a card needs to be perfectly cut and centered to have value and collectibility? I see more and more collectors passing on near perfect comics because they want a better perfectly manufactured comic. The comic book printing process is far more complicated than cards, which is basically cardboard sheets cut on 4 sides. Most (99.999%) vintage comics were never printed 100% perfectly. As a high grade collector of comics for decades, I certainly understand desire to want books that are as nice as they appeared on the newsstands, but if I wanted comics that are better than newsstand condition I know my collection would be less than 20 books.

Don't you think it's predictable bleed-over from teaching the hobby to be so grade-centric? If you want a client-base to obsess over miniscule paper creases, waves and curls, to the point of paying to have them pressed out, odds are those clients will also develop an unnatural obsession towards imperfections across the board, regardless of how they came to be.

 

And why it's so ironic that after cultivating all that focus, effort and fees toward clients seeking perfection, the holder could have a "puddling" problem.

 

I don't think obsession behaves like that, turned on and off at will. Clients obsessed with perfection are going to be just that, full spectrum.

 

I'm not so sure the relational tie could have been avoided anyway. The whole "collectible tax" on perfectly manicured specimens is a by-product of buying memories, and the premiums we pay is in a roundabout way an appreciation toward the way the item has withstood the tests of time and aging. A simplistic notion is that maybe the prices realized are nothing more than an accepted way to reward the curation methods that keep collectibles in pristine condition. The notion of grabby-types muscling-in on the action using artificial manipulation techniques isn't exclusive to back-issue comics, but the widespread acceptance (despite expressed disapproval of certain techniques) and ways it's being rewarded is distinct to the vintage comics hobby, and is certainly appearing to be taking on a life of its own.

[Davenport]

I'm not so sure the relational tie could have been avoided anyway. The whole "collectible tax" on perfectly manicured specimens is a by-product of buying memories, and the premiums we pay is in a roundabout way an appreciation toward the way the item has withstood the tests of time and aging. A simplistic notion is that maybe the prices realized are nothing more than an accepted way to reward the curation methods that keep collectibles in pristine condition. The notion of grabby-types muscling-in on the action using artificial manipulation techniques isn't exclusive to back-issue comics, but the widespread acceptance (despite expressed disapproval of certain techniques) and way it's being rewarded in the vintage comics hobby is certainly appearing to be taking on a life of its own.

But the difference is comic books are a printed paper product, not stamped metal or molded plastic. And we now have a culture where the slightest touch could do 'damage'. Forget about the item originally being gang-runned in a factory, bundled, thrown into trucks to be hauled across the country and stacked, racked or clipped for marketing.

 

The current culture is waaaaay beyond 'originality' or 'preservation' territory in its focus. Barely still tied to reality at all, unless that reality includes modern artificial refurbishing services.

[comicwiz]

I'm not so sure the relational tie could have been avoided anyway. The whole "collectible tax" on perfectly manicured specimens is a by-product of buying memories, and the premiums we pay is in a roundabout way an appreciation toward the way the item has withstood the tests of time and aging. A simplistic notion is that maybe the prices realized are nothing more than an accepted way to reward the curation methods that keep collectibles in pristine condition. The notion of grabby-types muscling-in on the action using artificial manipulation techniques isn't exclusive to back-issue comics, but the widespread acceptance (despite expressed disapproval of certain techniques) and way it's being rewarded in the vintage comics hobby is certainly appearing to be taking on a life of its own.

But the difference is comic books are a printed paper product, not stamped metal or molded plastic. And we now have a culture where the slightest touch could do 'damage'. Forget about the item originally being gang-runned in a factory, bundled, thrown into trucks to be hauled across the country and stacked, racked or clipped for marketing.

 

The current culture is waaaaay beyond 'originality' or 'preservation' territory in its focus. Barely still tied to reality at all, unless that reality includes modern artificial refurbishing services.

 

Reconditioning methods in collectible paper ephemera have been around for hundreds of years, and you would be hard-pressed to find a person in the position of "expert" not disclosing the work performed.

 

The line between practices deemed necessary to conserve, and techniques purely intended to reap financial gain, have always been clearly marked, with the latter having to carefully wade through and avoid financial disincentive quicksand.

 

The exact opposite tenets seem to not only have shored-up, but have staked their claim and are looking to overstay their welcome with certification in the vintage comic hobby.

[fantastic_four]

Sometimes I think collectors are more obsessed about manufacturing defects than they are post-manufacturing defects such as tears, creases, stains, etc. Are we becoming like baseball card collectors, where a card needs to be perfectly cut and centered to have value and collectibility? I see more and more collectors passing on near perfect comics because they want a better perfectly manufactured comic. The comic book printing process is far more complicated than cards, which is basically cardboard sheets cut on 4 sides. Most (99.999%) vintage comics were never printed 100% perfectly. As a high grade collector of comics for decades, I certainly understand desire to want books that are as nice as they appeared on the newsstands, but if I wanted comics that are better than newsstand condition I know my collection would be less than 20 books.

 

The positive side of what you're describing is that it extends the hunt. That's the entire reason I started collecting high grade to begin with, because I knew I'd be done collecting mid-grade runs in a few months or years, but I figured high grade runs would take much longer, thereby extending the amount of time I collect. I started looking for minimal manufacturing defects for the same reason--I realized in many cases I could get a 9.x copy of any of the Silver Marvel titles almost anytime I want, so to extend the hunt I started looking for perfect eye appeal.

 

A good example is Fantastic Four #48 which almost always has front-to-back miswrap. That book was clearly part of a warehouse find and is far easier to find than most Silver books, so given that a 9.x copy pops up every week for sale, why not just wait for a perfectly-centered copy? Turns out I've never seen a well-centered 9.8 and only three or four 9.6s in over a decade, thereby turning the book into an actual challenge. Which just means more fun and more hunting through books for me. Some people move on to new titles. , I like Marvel, and expanding to new titles hasn't appealed to me yet. So I just keep upgrading or holding out for ultra-picky perfect copies. All in the name of fun.

 

Also, I don't see the point in allowing the reality of the manufacturing process to bleed over into aesthetics. If one book has less printing defects than the other, it's better. Period. No matter how many steps the comic book printing process is, I'll take the better book whenever the remaining supply affords me the option to be choosy.

[fantastic_four]

 

They were individually trimmed.

They were trimmed after they were completely assembled, folded and stapled.

Trimming the three sides, individually, is the final step in production.

 

 

I disagree.

Just don't want to go into details......

 

Dice is not 100% wrong about how some places printed books at a certain time, but he is not 100% correct either.

 

Different companies at different times "cut and bound" books in different ways.

 

If memory serves, Dice has been very specifically referring to how the manufacturing process worked at the Sparta, Tennessee plant where Marvel comics were printed throughout most of the Silver Age superhero runs. So are you disputing how the folding and trimming process worked at Sparta specifically when you said you disagree with him? Your assertion above is unclear about that. If you didn't realize he was talking specifically about Sparta, you two could be in complete agreement.

[comicwiz]

There you go Dicey - proof we're listening (thumbs u

[blazingbob]

I'm sorry but who are you again?

 

 

 

 

[fantastic_four]

I'm sorry but who are you again?

 

I can't believe CGC still lets him post here.

[VintageComics]

I'm happy Steve chimed in with some thoughts!

 

We miss you, buddy!

 

 

 

They were individually trimmed.

They were trimmed after they were completely assembled, folded and stapled.

Trimming the three sides, individually, is the final step in production.

 

 

I disagree.

Just don't want to go into details......

 

Dice is not 100% wrong about how some places printed books at a certain time, but he is not 100% correct either.

 

Different companies at different times "cut and bound" books in different ways.

 

If memory serves, Dice has been very specifically referring to how the manufacturing process worked at the Sparta, Tennessee plant where Marvel comics were printed throughout most of the Silver Age superhero runs. So are you disputing how the folding and trimming process worked at Sparta specifically when you said you disagree with him? Your assertion above is unclear about that. If you didn't realize he was talking specifically about Sparta, you two could be in complete agreement.

 

I'm happy to admit that it is limited compared to Steve's but from my experience, every single comic I have ever opened up (and it's somewhere high up in the number of 1000's) seems to have been trimmed on the top and bottom edges after being folded. This can be proven by the line the top and bottom edges of the book follow after being opened up at the centerfold.

 

Overhangs may or may not have been present on the newsstand. Some of us were trying to determine how the overhang appeared (and when - before newsstand or after newsstand).

 

[blazingbob]

Since you aren't a dealer according to Jimmy I'm glad you have taken up the job of resident comic book historian.

 

What's your stance on arrival dates?

 

Exactly when do they appear on the book?

[sborock]

I think a lot of the points you raise speak to the issues, but some leave open-ended questions. It's been some time since the discussion about a third-party assessing certified books was brought up here on the boards, but seeing your points about being able to identify these tweaks "most" of the time, I think the notion, if not the exact function, of companies like CVA seem to carry more merit in light of RSR and Costanza books passing through undetected. To be clear, I'm not suggesting CVA in it's current iteration, but on the platform of offering an assessment on undisclosed work, I see some benefit to a secondary opinion on slabs.

 

As I see it, no one needs to be more informed than the sellers that their certified books show signs of Costanza or RSR, and finding out from a seasoned pro like yourself at a show or during a transaction would be a confidence breaker. Where's the fun in being told a book you thought was one grade, isn't because it's been over graded, or that a controversial (and mostly negatively perceived) manipulation technique was used to attain the grade? Have this happen enough, and I think it could turn out to be a deal-breaker as far as people seeing the merit of having books certified.

 

The other misnomer in this whole situation is ranking these misses as evolving collector preferences whittling out defects no longer perceived as being tolerable to refined collecting tastes. We saw books with cream pages, miswrap or too much white on the spine, off-centering and other production traits showing a wider value disparity over the years when compared to the books in the exact same grade not revealing the same production problems. There is a marked difference between books produced in such a manner, and books which did not exhibit Costanza or RSR prior to someone manhandling them and creating those defects. I'm not suggesting you spoke on this, but I want to make it clear that part of my complaint from the beginning is that this brand of manipulation is blending-in way too easily into the discussion and perception problems of "production defects" when this couldn't be further from the truth.

 

Ultimately, this leads to the problem that it's taking the wind out of the sails from collectors who otherwise had no reason to worry or care about pressing because now books they have been collecting will be relegated to the underclass of "suspect" books. That to me is the biggest travesty in this whole situation.

 

Anyhow, it's great to hear your perspective on the matter - your voice of balance and reason in this discussion is very much appreciated (thumbs u

 

Joseph,

Just want to make sure you know, I was talking about non-certified comics. Once they are encapsulated, I would have a very hard time picking out certain "manipulation" or "restoration" methods if a book is in a slab and not raw in my hands.

 

If you are buying a certified book, you have to trust the people certifying them to catch "problem" books. That said, no matter how great a grader is, something will get by them once every so often.

 

Since there will always be crooks in our hobby (and every other hobby), no one is 100% safe, ever. You can buy a certified book and, out of a thousand, one might be badly pressed, reversed spine rolled, etc; but if you put a stigma on certified books and most people do not buy them, then you go back to buying from many, not all, people who will not be able to detect certain manipulations. The crooks will sell to those dealers and we go back to the days of collectors getting stuck with books they have no clue were worked on. Maybe ignorance is bliss. I don't know, but it seems we can't have it both ways, even though we would like to. No solution will ever be perfect.

 

Collectors must learn about any hobby before throwing big money into it. I point new collector to this board all the time as it is a great resource if you can get through the BS here.

 

I am sometimes afraid to send people to these boards because of mis-information and the rampant paranoia

[VintageComics]

Since there will always be crooks in our hobby (and every other hobby), no one is 100% safe, ever. You can buy a certified book and, out of a thousand, one might be badly pressed, reversed spine rolled, etc; but if you put a stigma on certified books and most people do not buy them, then you go back to buying from many, not all, people who will not be able to detect certain manipulations. The crooks will sell to those dealers and we go back to the days of collectors getting stuck with books they have no clue were worked on. Maybe ignorance is bliss. I don't know, but it seems we can't have it both ways, even though we would like to. No solution will ever be perfect.

 

Yup, baby and bathwater need to be separated.

[blazingbob]

? We keep throwing you out and you come back.

[VintageComics]

Since you aren't a dealer according to Jimmy I'm glad you have taken up the job of resident comic book historian.

 

 

I'm a resident nothing and happy to stay that way! Anybody that wants to be "something" or "someone" has my blessing.

 

What's your stance on arrival dates?

 

Exactly when do they appear on the book?

 

Why elementary, my dear Blazing One: when the stamp hits the cover of the book!

 

 

[VintageComics]

? We keep throwing you out and you come back.

 

They must be missing the window and hitting the wall.