Cole Schave collection: face jobs?

[blazingbob]

"The guy"?

 

Are you referrring to Danny or Mark W?

 

Danny's primary work was usually color touch/trim up to 3 sides.

 

Mark was more the artist and current Reverse Spine engineering expert.

 

I would think Mark's work is more profitable now since he is getting blue labels and playing within the "manipulation allowable" rules.

 

 

[THE_BEYONDER]

Are you saying CGC is making things worse?

 

What do you suggest be done?

 

All I'm saying is that encapsulation itself was a game changer. Once a book makes it into a blue label slab....it basically has an eternal green light.

 

I think CGC should spend more time/resources on resto detection. Confidence in their 'universal' label is eroding.

[Ditch Fahrenheit]

It's sounding like everyone was expecting CGC to see ahead of time how the system was going to be gamed and should have taken precautions.

 

Doesn't the FBI fix problems after they happen? If some of the finest intelligence agencies in the world can't predict the future, why would a bunch of comic graders?

 

It's just not possible.

 

There are always people that are going to game the system. The person doing the RSR's is probably one of the best at finding loopholes and from what I've heard always has been. How do you stop someone like that?

 

I hear what you're saying.

 

But in my opinion this loophole was caused by the grading standards. I think many here, myself included, believe that the impact of the spine roll, and the impact of backside and spine defects are not being properly weighted into the grade.

 

The same can be said about shrunken covers. There is more grade reward in pressable defects than there is penalty in defects caused by over-pressing or improper pressing.

 

It's not too difficult to see why someone would take advantage of this situation. It was foreseeable.

[fantastic_four]

I think CGC should spend more time/resources on resto detection.

 

CGC didn't invent ANY restoration detection methods--they all came from the art conservation world. Your expectations have been unreasonable for almost a decade now, but hey, keep howling at the moon, and the people who realize you're doing it will keep ignoring you.

 

[comicwiz]

It's sounding like everyone was expecting CGC to see ahead of time how the system was going to be gamed and should have taken precautions.

 

Doesn't the FBI fix problems after they happen? If some of the finest intelligence agencies in the world can't predict the future, why would a bunch of comic graders?

 

It's just not possible.

 

There are always people that are going to game the system. The person doing the RSR's is probably one of the best at finding loopholes and from what I've heard always has been. How do you stop someone like that?

 

On the prosecution talking point, this has largely to do with legal/political reasons, and the need for a smoking gun.

 

No one here is suggesting a pre-crime system is required.

 

Yes, these are age-old problems, and they aren't exclusive to our hobby.

 

We've come a long way from the primordial manner cheaters were punished.

 

Early explorers tried their hand at cheating by playing both sides, and while the aboriginals at the time had primitive trading systems in place, they didn't need the rule of law - their instincts were all they needed to recognize treason and deal with it in a deserving manner they felt the situation required.

 

Fixed weights and shaving currency for profit was another prevalent method of cheating, which was somewhat deterred with the advancements of weighing scales.

 

In both examples, we look at the historical situation and may not fully appreciate how complex those situations were in trying to keep people honest, even with the seriousness of such actions being punishable by death.

 

To suggest nothing is possible both underestimates and overlooks the abundant historical evidence revealing the lengths and willingness people will go to avoid being cheated.

 

No, I'm not suggesting the death penalty, but a good banning was necessary for Danny and Ewart, and is IMHO long overdue with the players named/shamed in this thread.

 

Too harsh? Tough.

 

And if CGC doesn't see a need to step-up and come up with a solution to deter the practices, then I see nothing wrong at having a hand at completely erasing the thought from brewing in the next Brainiac's mind to try this nonsense by raising the ire of unrelenting public shaming.

[VintageComics]

It's sounding like everyone was expecting CGC to see ahead of time how the system was going to be gamed and should have taken precautions.

 

Doesn't the FBI fix problems after they happen? If some of the finest intelligence agencies in the world can't predict the future, why would a bunch of comic graders?

 

It's just not possible.

 

There are always people that are going to game the system. The person doing the RSR's is probably one of the best at finding loopholes and from what I've heard always has been. How do you stop someone like that?

 

I hear what you're saying.

 

But in my opinion this loophole was caused by the grading standards. I think many here, myself included, believe that the impact of the spine roll, and the impact of backside and spine defects are not being properly weighted into the grade.

 

The same can be said about shrunken covers. There is more grade reward in pressable defects than there is penalty in defects caused by over-pressing or improper pressing.

 

It's not too difficult to see why someone would take advantage of this situation. It was foreseeable.

 

You could line up any group of board members (let's choose any from this thread who seem to dislike CGC) and have them write grading standards and run the company, and someone somewhere would game the system.

 

It's easy to look back in hindsight and say "oh look, we should have stopped that!".

 

It's near impossible to prevent it by creating a perfect system.

 

 

[THE_BEYONDER]

I think CGC should spend more time/resources on resto detection.

 

CGC didn't invent ANY restoration detection methods--they all came from the art conservation world. Your expectations have been unreasonable for almost a decade now, but hey, keep howling at the moon, and the people who realize you're doing it will keep ignoring you.

 

 

Please go back to ignoring me.

[rjrjr]

Manipulation has been in the grading business model from Coins/Cards. Again, why is everyone acting like the writing wasn't on the wall?

 

Encapsulation made it more profitable.

 

Did it? Is the guy doing RSRs making more from that than he did from trimming and color touching in the 90s? He was free to do that to any book he wanted before certification, but the supply of books he can game now is rather limited. Is he really making more now than then?

 

Are you being serious or joking?

[fantastic_four]

No, I'm not suggesting the death penalty, but a good banning was good enough for Danny and Ewart, and is IMHO long overdue with the players named/shame in this thread.

 

Too harsh? Tough.

 

THAT is some constructive criticism right there. Agreed wholeheartedly--if they're going to specialize in gaming CGC's limits, ban their . It's the exact same reason Steve banned Ewert. Steve is probably just more of a hard- than Paul is.

[fantastic_four]

Manipulation has been in the grading business model from Coins/Cards. Again, why is everyone acting like the writing wasn't on the wall?

 

Encapsulation made it more profitable.

 

Did it? Is the guy doing RSRs making more from that than he did from trimming and color touching in the 90s? He was free to do that to any book he wanted before certification, but the supply of books he can game now is rather limited. Is he really making more now than then?

 

Are you being serious or joking?

 

I asked because I don't know--it's a difficult thing to do speculative math on. Bob response suggests he's not sure either. I'd guess he made more before when he was able to restore every high-dollar book that was worth his time in almost any way he wanted, but perhaps I'm underestimating.

[Rip]

Harder penalties would be a great idea. (thumbs u

[fantastic_four]

The tarring and feathering of reputations catches up to the individual simply for the reasons when you buy from a seller, you're buying into their personal brand and reputation.

 

With certification, you have institutionalized the standards in a manner that fast-tracks transaction dynamics, anonymizes the players, and fortuitously, you have a supporting case of venues willing to anonymously market and move slabs.

 

To suggest what happened in the past as being anything remotely resembling what's going on now is intellectually dishonest.

 

To suggest the agents of this system, who allow this to prosper, are an inscrutable part of the way this hobby has always functioned is a spurious argument.

 

The Internet empowers scammers and gamers far more than the amount you can slide past certification does. Every measure I've seen says that Dupcak makes FAR more now without slabbing anything than he did in the 90s.

 

What gets past CGC I can forgive them for--aside from the RSRs they should know better about by now--because nobody on this planet can reliably and consistently detect what they're unable to detect. The amount of scams eBay turns a blind eye to until someone pulls off the monumental task of collecting enough evidence to prove someone is a scammer thanks to the anonymity afforded to them by the Internet is much, much harder to swallow.

[Ditch Fahrenheit]

It's sounding like everyone was expecting CGC to see ahead of time how the system was going to be gamed and should have taken precautions.

 

Doesn't the FBI fix problems after they happen? If some of the finest intelligence agencies in the world can't predict the future, why would a bunch of comic graders?

 

It's just not possible.

 

There are always people that are going to game the system. The person doing the RSR's is probably one of the best at finding loopholes and from what I've heard always has been. How do you stop someone like that?

 

I hear what you're saying.

 

But in my opinion this loophole was caused by the grading standards. I think many here, myself included, believe that the impact of the spine roll, and the impact of backside and spine defects are not being properly weighted into the grade.

 

The same can be said about shrunken covers. There is more grade reward in pressable defects than there is penalty in defects caused by over-pressing or improper pressing.

 

It's not too difficult to see why someone would take advantage of this situation. It was foreseeable.

 

You could line up any group of board members (let's choose any from this thread who seem to dislike CGC) and have them write grading standards and run the company, and someone somewhere would game the system.

 

It's easy to look back in hindsight and say "oh look, we should have stopped that!".

 

It's near impossible to prevent it by creating a perfect system.

 

 

True. But this "particular" game was low-hanging fruit.

[VintageComics]

True. But this "particular" game was low-hanging fruit.

 

I don't if I'd call it low hanging fruit when really, it seems only one person found that loophole.

 

 

[Ditch Fahrenheit]

True. But this "particular" game was low-hanging fruit.

 

I don't if I'd call it low hanging fruit when really, it seems only one person found that loophole.

 

 

 

Only one person has been identified in "this" thread, and only because of the severity of the modification and the existence of high quality before and after pics.

[fantastic_four]

True. But this "particular" game was low-hanging fruit.

 

I don't if I'd call it low hanging fruit when really, it seems only one person found that loophole.

 

 

 

Only one person has been identified in "this" thread, and only because of the severity of the modification and the existence of high quality before and after pics.

 

If we're talking about shrinkage and not RSR, it's because Namisgr (the original poster) used to own some of the Schave books, so he remembered them not being that way.

[VintageComics]

True. But this "particular" game was low-hanging fruit.

 

I don't if I'd call it low hanging fruit when really, it seems only one person found that loophole.

 

 

 

Only one person has been identified in "this" thread, and only because of the severity of the modification and the existence of high quality before and after pics.

 

Fair enough, although to my knowledge nobody else has been able to locate such a concentration of such examples from any other source.

 

 

[jimbo_707]

 

With certification, you have institutionalized the standards in a manner that fast-tracks transaction dynamics, anonymizes the players, and fortuitously, you have a supporting cast of venues willing to anonymously market and move slabs.

 

Taking away the anonymity from auctions/consignments would be a step in the right direction. Buyers should have a right to know from whom they're buying, not just who the middle man is.

[sborock]

True. But this "particular" game was low-hanging fruit.

 

I don't if I'd call it low hanging fruit when really, it seems only one person found that loophole.

 

 

 

Only one person has been identified in "this" thread, and only because of the severity of the modification and the existence of high quality before and after pics.

 

The real game changer for all of us was, as you stated, the existence of high quality before and after pics (online). These boards have done wonders for helping collectors and the CGC graders to catch onto many things that were done to books. Either things that many don't care about (pressing, light dry cleaning) and the things I think most of us care about (micro-trimming, RSR, improper pressing, etc).

 

As to profit:

Money wise, the money is bigger because many books are now worth more money.

 

Profit percentage wise, even though books were worth less "back in the day", so many books were screwed with and most collectors and dealers could not tell. Certain people were making a huge profit, just with poor trimming, solvent cleaning, married pages and covers, staples re-placed, spine reinforcement, pieces replaced and color touch. People were putting color touch on an ASM #50 even though the book only sold in VF for $15 because a FN was only $5 Huge mark up on thousands and thousands of books.

 

There is sooooo much restoration that is detected now, as well less books being restored because of 3rd party grading and educated collectors/dealers. It is no longer worth getting caught screwing with books that do not sell for big bucks (And, no, I am not talking about proper pressing and proper dry cleaning).

[VintageComics]

 

With certification, you have institutionalized the standards in a manner that fast-tracks transaction dynamics, anonymizes the players, and fortuitously, you have a supporting cast of venues willing to anonymously market and move slabs.

 

Taking away the anonymity from auctions/consignments would be a step in the right direction. Buyers should have a right to know from whom they're buying, not just who the middle man is.

 

So successful sellers should give up their customer lists?