Cole Schave collection: face jobs?

[Randall Dowling]

 

Yes, this thread is about some bad mess. But that said, I really believe that the hobby is much better off now with certification and these boards, then it was before.

 

Wholeheartedly agree.

 

But still, a question remains: The books in this thread show a loophole in the certification process that leads to the following:

 

A CGC 9.2 OW/W is not a a CGC 9.2 OW/W is not a CGC 9.2 OW/W.

 

The inconsistency in what a book can be certified as either as a result of pressing or just plain resubmission at a later time creates wild swings on the perceived value of the exact same comic. As you very accurately stated earlier, once slabbed, it is incredibly hard (if not impossible) to evaluate many factors including gloss, freshness, flatness, micro-trimming, etc. And grading from scans is even worse.

 

The loophole seems to be the exclusion of "production defects" (whatever that term means) from grading criteria. How do you feel about the request that there be a modification to the certification standards to close this loophole and thereby, eliminate the incentive to do this to otherwise, gorgeous comics?

 

I think everyone agrees that the Schave books have a nasty history and generally, no one is happy with the outcome. The sad product of this sort of "gaming the system" is that the actual market value of a CGC 9.2 is now a variable (or any other grade for that matter). GPA is less reliable. Which was one of the things certification was trying to address, wasn't it?

 

The only way that I can see is to include production defects as part of how comics are graded at all levels (not just 9.6 or higher). As I've stated before, I don't care how a book was trimmed badly, if it happened at the Sparta plant or in some guys basement 2 years ago, the end result is the same.

 

I understand that the production of comics has evolved over the 80 years, so maybe different standards for different eras? (no, I'm not suggesting a return of the "modern grade", just a modification of how books from 1944 are graded from how books from 1984 are graded).

 

No easy answers but surely with all the smart people in this hobby that value honesty and integrity, we can come up with an appropriate response (and yes, that is a sincere statement, I think most all of the people that I've met that love comics fall into that category).

 

 

Maybe because of your position, these are questions that you can't respond to in a public forum. Understandable. It would be nice to get some closure on this issue.

 

Also, I respect your choice to not share some of the knowledge you have. I can see how that has turned out poorly in the past. That sucks.

 

 

[AstuteObservation-migratio]

But that's the hobby today. The topic of this thread. It's like the opposite of "Black Friday". It's structured more like "Fleece Fest". Come on in.

 

Truth

 

Yes, this thread is about some bad mess. But that said, I really believe that the hobby is much better off now with certification and these boards, then it was before. But, because I got screwed over a bunch of times, it made me study "collectible" comics to the point that I make very, very few mistakes these days. Sometimes, as John Hiatt would say, "That's how you learn, you just get burned". Which sucks, but it either makes you leave the hobby or gets you off your butt and learn.

 

I wish you had felt the same way about the Alpha grade before you got rid of it. To use a reason like "some people thought the "-" in "VF-" was a negative" fits the same mold as getting burned. This kind of Noob should either get off their butt and learn how to grade, or get out of the hobby, not get the label dumbed down for them.

[skypinkblu]

Sorry, did not mean to do a "post and run". My daughter called me to come pick her up from Sunday night youth group and I needed to make her some dinner before bed. (School night)

 

Dice is not 100% wrong about how some places printed books at a certain time, but he is not 100% correct either.

 

Different companies at different times "cut and bound" books in different ways.

 

It's scary to me that collectors will now think that any book that was maufactured with a short cover or a crooked cover is now trimmed or pressed incorrectly.

 

I can tell the difference between a "Cosanza" book and one that is not, most of the time.

I can tell when a book is trimmed most of the time. (A perfect micro trimming is almost impossible to detect without before and after scans, I don't care what anyone says, it's a 50/50 guess. I (we) will have to live with that, if we want to keep buying books from most dealers and collectors.)

I can tell if a book has lost gloss from presssing or just natural causes, most of the time.

I can tell if a book was solvent washed, most of the time.

I can tell if a book has "reverse" spine roll, most of the time.

 

There's more, but I think you folks get what I am trying to say. I also made sure I wrote "most of the time", because no one catches these things 100% of the time. No one. Also, new ways of screwing with a book seem to come to light every year. And, yes, many times, it all because of money. I have not had a problem with pressing since I found out about it in the 80's. I do have a problem with people going the "extra mile" to "squeeze" more money out of a book by pushing the pressing to the point that the book no longer looks natural, or worse, ruins the book.

 

For the people on the boards that don't know me:

I am not "thumping my chest" and I am not posting this like "I can weight lift x number of pounds", "I am a martial arts expert", and all those other things people say on the boards to "prove themselves".

 

I just keep shaking my head reading some of the stuff posted as fact by some here, even some high end players. Thing's like "Marvel over-hangs were not there when the books were bought off the shelves." (BS!) and other things like that.

 

I grew up in a printing family, as well as worked in printing, on and off most of my life, until I was twenty-two. I have also collected and studied comics since I can remember. Getting ripped off by buying restored as un-restored, helped me learn quite a bit. I have had "trial by fire" when I helped open CGC and was the their orignal restoration detection expert and primary grader (finalizer).

 

I have, and always will, help collectors and dealers with a free restoration check at conventions. I have saved many people thousands of dollars, many that are on, or used to be on, these boards. I used to give away my detection methods for free, as I thought I was helping the hobby. I probably was, but I was also costing myself a fortune and teaching some people how to "not get caught". That's why I no longer come into these threads and explain whyI think someone is right or wrong. I would also get sucked into debates with people that have no agenda other than pushing peoples buttons. I don't need mine pushed. So, now, If I work one on one with someone, I will sometimes show them how to detect certain things. If it's a great friend, I will help them out with some detection methods. I will also do it if $ is donated to charity (one of my choice).

 

Anyway, it's a shame that these books got damaged by the presser and missed by CGC. mess happens.

 

Be aware, just don't be too paranoid. It will hurt the fun you have in this great hobby, and that's waaaaaay worse than a properly pressed or properly dry cleaned book.

 

End of

 

Restoration checks, grading, history lessons, shopping...

 

More shopping..more history lessons....

[VintageComics]

I actually think that is a pretty fair statement given how everyone has slightly (or significantly) different grading standards.

 

Of course. Most 'accurate' graders will fall into a similar range for a given book/grade but you will always get a little discrepancy.

 

Grading standards are simply 'majority agreement'.

 

Even CGC is not consistent within their own grading standards and it doesn't get tighter knit than staying within your own organization.

 

 

[DiceX]

What's going on in this thread?

 

 

[sborock]

But that's the hobby today. The topic of this thread. It's like the opposite of "Black Friday". It's structured more like "Fleece Fest". Come on in.

 

Truth

 

Yes, this thread is about some bad mess. But that said, I really believe that the hobby is much better off now with certification and these boards, then it was before. But, because I got screwed over a bunch of times, it made me study "collectible" comics to the point that I make very, very few mistakes these days. Sometimes, as John Hiatt would say, "That's how you learn, you just get burned". Which sucks, but it either makes you leave the hobby or gets you off your butt and learn.

 

I wish you had felt the same way about the Alpha grade before you got rid of it. To use a reason like "some people thought the "-" in "VF-" was a negative" fits the same mold as getting burned. This kind of Noob should either get off their butt and learn how to grade, or get out of the hobby, not get the label dumbed down for them.

 

You are welcome to your opinion, but I think you are way of track. I also think you are being rude.

 

You can dislike getting rid of the Alpha grade, but the grading stays the same whether it's numerical or Alpha.

[VintageComics]

That's Stu in one of his incarnations.

 

[ciorac]

I agree. I think part of the difficulty is that grading isn't really teachable. Not just in comics either, as I've spent the better part of the last three years learning how to grade action figures/toys, coins and cards. You could learn the ropes from visual reference, but it's the hands-on type of learning which really allows your grading to improve. Exposure and regular practice also helps. In-hand inspection experience can teach you a lot more than staring at photos or scans.

 

I think the more realistic role of advisors is to act as stewards, and to show collectors just enough to get them interested in learning the ropes and to encourage them to do so at a pace where they're most comfortable.

 

very nicely put.

 

I enjoy teaching and stewarding people into and about the hobby of collecting comics.

[AstuteObservation-migratio]

But that's the hobby today. The topic of this thread. It's like the opposite of "Black Friday". It's structured more like "Fleece Fest". Come on in.

 

Truth

 

Yes, this thread is about some bad mess. But that said, I really believe that the hobby is much better off now with certification and these boards, then it was before. But, because I got screwed over a bunch of times, it made me study "collectible" comics to the point that I make very, very few mistakes these days. Sometimes, as John Hiatt would say, "That's how you learn, you just get burned". Which sucks, but it either makes you leave the hobby or gets you off your butt and learn.

 

I wish you had felt the same way about the Alpha grade before you got rid of it. To use a reason like "some people thought the "-" in "VF-" was a negative" fits the same mold as getting burned. This kind of Noob should either get off their butt and learn how to grade, or get out of the hobby, not get the label dumbed down for them.

 

You are welcome to your opinion, but I think you are way of track. I also think you are being rude.

 

Huh? Uh, okay, I apologize to all Noobs who don't want to learn how to grade. :shrug:

[sborock]

That's Stu in one of his incarnations.

 

 

 

Should have known.

 

Stu, please just stay away from me.

[batman_fan]

I agree. I think part of the difficulty is that grading isn't really teachable. Not just in comics either, as I've spent the better part of the last three years learning how to grade action figures/toys, coins and cards. You could learn the ropes from visual reference, but it's the hands-on type of learning which really allows your grading to improve. Exposure and regular practice also helps. In-hand inspection experience can teach you a lot more than staring at photos or scans.

 

I think the more realistic role of advisors is to act as stewards, and to show collectors just enough to get them interested in learning the ropes and to encourage them to do so at a pace where they're most comfortable.

 

very nicely put.

 

I enjoy teaching and stewarding people into and about the hobby of collecting comics.

 

Hey Bill,

 

Can you teach me what a GA 9.0 yellow cover book looks like? Probably the best way would be to send me a copy you have so I can look at it up close.

[adamstrange]

But that's the hobby today. The topic of this thread. It's like the opposite of "Black Friday". It's structured more like "Fleece Fest". Come on in.

 

Truth

 

Yes, this thread is about some bad mess. But that said, I really believe that the hobby is much better off now with certification and these boards, then it was before. But, because I got screwed over a bunch of times, it made me study "collectible" comics to the point that I make very, very few mistakes these days. Sometimes, as John Hiatt would say, "That's how you learn, you just get burned". Which sucks, but it either makes you leave the hobby or gets you off your butt and learn, Every veteran hobbyist on these boards, has been burned.

 

 

Sad but true.

 

I swore off collecting GA in 1989 because of the undisclosed restored books I had purchased.

[DeliBebek]

I realize I'm way out on the fringe when it comes to the importance of condition. It doesn't matter to me what grade a dealer puts on the book. What matters is whether I am willing to pay that price for the book in the condition I see. Like a lot of collectors, I have my peeves when it comes to condition and I put weight on those qualities differently from other collectors and dealers. At that point, the letters or number on the sticker don't mean as much as my own opinion as a collector and potential buyer.

[fantastic_four]

This kind of post is why I don't post much anymore. I hate having to defend myself for no good reason and I just love having my name associated with Hammer. Yeah, I'm just like him.

 

People do get fast and loose with the accusations around here. I just ignore the rude , but I don't have a reputation in comics to protect, so your antipathy to posting is understandable. I'm pretty sure more of them don't realize they're being inflammatory just like drivers screaming at other drivers in their cars don't realize they're being the individual_without_enough_empathys that they are. But there are more than enough simpatico, smart people around here to keep coming back if you ignore the dips and love to talk about comics n' stuff.

[fantastic_four]

The point that I think you are trying to get across is true in any field, though. It isn't exclusive to this hobby.

 

Nor is Steve the only one who does it. All the guys who make a full or partial living off the hobby keep a lot of information close to the chest. I don't really mind, particularly when they do release a ton of good info along the way like Steve, Tracey Heft, Matt Nelson, or Susan Cicconi have over the years.

[fantastic_four]

Let's say I buy a book off the boards or Ebay and it's listed as FN and when I receive it it's actually a VG. When I put this to the seller they state that according to their standards it is a FN and when I politely ask to have those standards explained to me they reply with - "sorry, that's propriety information." What would be the best type of response in that situation?

 

I would not have asked them to explain their grading standards. I would have just returned the book if you thought you over paid and/or it was over graded.

 

But how do you determine if it is 'over graded' if you don't know what the standards are?

 

When grading a book for sale am I allowed to use Overstreet standards without their permission?

 

you grade it against your own personal standards. If it fits, keep it. If it doesn't, don't. You do not need someone else to tell you what is acceptable, or should be acceptable to you I should imagine

 

If everybody buys or sells based on their own personal standards then is there any need for an 'industry standard'?

 

That's like asking if there's any point in making murder illegal if people are going to choose to murder anyway. Yes, there's a point in standards, morals, ethics, and laws regardless of what individuals choose to do with their free will.

[comicwiz]

I realize I'm way out on the fringe when it comes to the importance of condition. It doesn't matter to me what grade a dealer puts on the book. What matters is whether I am willing to pay that price for the book in the condition I see.

 

See to me this is the crux of why what makes what this thread has revealed is happening so wrong.

 

Prior to 3rd-party grading, you would walk to a dealers table and without fail you would find a handful of books where the pricing absolutely made no sense. What I mean here is not dealers that habitually over graded, but were actually relatively consistent, but held a few books which made no sense in terms of their grading/pricing. You could almost spot them from a mile if you did many shows consecutively because they'd be almost in the same spot on the wall, show after show. What I concluded over the years is no foul play per se, but dealers examples of weak moments where they likely over paid and were looking to recoup or possibly profit by using loose and fancy-free grading on those books.

 

CGC, and specifically impartiality in certification was intended to be the great equalizer to help rid this issue. I'm greatly oversimplifying things here, but essentially you sent your books in to have graded by a third-party, and whatever grade the book was assigned, you had to accept. You could try to over price, but that final grade pretty much kept pricing in a linear path that was commensurate to it's CGC grade. Now in cases where sunken costs to ship/grade exceeded the ability to recoup what you had in the book, you either cut your losses by selling it as is, or the book was cracked out and over graded because the CGC grade was probably deemed as a barrier. At peak market for certified books, the latter just became less likely an option as the gap between the value on certified and raw books got wider.

 

This thread, and what it has revealed has been happening, brings to life a number of irrational fears - namely that certification hasn't really remedied the problem of books being over graded. It has arguably made it more prevalent and possibly worse by allowing manipulation techniques to pass through with the same desire of achieving a higher grade without merit, backed by a third-party endorsement of an over graded book.

[fantastic_four]

CGC, and specifically impartiality in certification was intended to be the great equalizer to help rid this issue. I'm greatly oversimplifying things here, but essentially you sent your books in to have graded by a third-party, and whatever grade the book was assigned, you had to accept. You could try to over price, but that final grade pretty much kept pricing in a linear path that was commensurate to it's CGC grade. Now in cases where sunken costs to ship/grade exceeded the ability to recoup what you had in the book, you either cut your losses by selling it as is, or the book was cracked out and over graded because the CGC grade was probably deemed as a barrier. Over the years, the latter just became less likely an option as the gap between the value on certified and raw books got wider.

 

This thread, and what it has revealed has been happening, brings to life a number of irrational fears - namely that certification hasn't really remedied the problem of books being over graded. It has arguably has made it more prevalent and possibly worse by allowing manipulation techniques to pass through with the same desire of over grading, and with a third-party endorsement of that misgraded book.

 

Welcome to life--most problems are never completely solved by human endeavor, they're just minimized. Thinking that certification could stop people from pushing the envelope on greed was an illusion. Blaming certification for problems nobody has a viable solution for isn't the way forward--finding more viable ways to stop the unethical is. I'm a bit apathetic to pressing and its ills at this point, but if I had a fire lit under me, I'd keep working on detection.

[ComicConnoisseur]

After reading the last many pages of this thread, I see a couple of issues that are being brought up that I'll give my 2 cents on (some of you will think it's worth less than that).

 

1) There is a sense that some people want the defect of pages sticking out of the book on the right side to be downgraded because of it's origin- having been pressed.

 

Response: I don't think this is correct. I think just about everyone wants the defect downgraded, definitely not upgraded, as had been practiced by CGC on these books (and who knows how many others). Regardless of origin, it is a defect and should be downgraded. I think the frustration that some are expressing (and I share this) is that for many years now, pressing comics has been sold as a completely benevolent treatment that does no wrong. Now, for the first time (thanks to Namisgr), we have evidence that this was, at best, a factual error, at worst, a dissembling of the truth for financial gain at the expense of the innocence of collectors not "in the know". In the latter case, those involved are little better than Danny Dupcak or Jason Ewert or any others that have come into comic collecting to take financial advantage of collectors joy and enthusiasm for comic books. I choose to believe that none of the posters on this board fall into the latter category. Just that they chose to believe and practice a treatment of comics that was other than described. They are just as surprised as everyone else.

 

From what I've seen in this thread, anyone still believing that pressing is a non-detrimental treatment of comic books is ignoring all the evidence to the contrary. Calling some pressing "bad" or "poorly done" is just rationalization to continue believing that it doesn't damage books. There may be a tradeoff in the case of flattening bends or folds or spine rolls in exchange for the damage that pressing does to books and that tradeoff may be a net positive. But it is a tradeoff. Pressing (as practiced by CCS and others) does damage to comic books. Damaging comic books should not result in higher grades of certification.

 

Which brings up the next point:

 

2) There is a conflict of interest for a certification company (indeed "the certification company") to have an in-house restoration service performing pressing prior to certification.

 

Response: I've thought about this for a long time and have come to the following conclusion- it is a very, very, odd move. Trust is the primary currency of a certification company and it's continued business model. Incorporating CCS would do nothing to create trust, in fact, it creates doubt about the legitimacy of certification. They brought Mark Zaid on to try to counteract this doubt and establish there was no conflict of interest or special treatment for CCS. And still, there is doubt. And that's because perception is a cornerstone of trust. Whether real or imagined, in the end, it doesn't matter if the result is a perception of bias (all of you who are lawyers out there will understand this well). And that is a strange thing for a certification company in the practice of adjudication to play with.

 

For sure, the following is true-

 

Not doing anything to address these questions is a choice to maintain the status quo. It is a conscious choice to keep things the way they are.

Good post!

Welcome to the boards. (thumbs u

[Davenport]

Welcome to life--most problems are never completely solved by human endeavor, they're just minimized. Thinking that certification could stop people from pushing the envelope on greed was an illusion. Blaming certification for problems nobody has a viable solution for isn't the way forward--finding more viable ways to stop the unethical is. I'm a bit apathetic to pressing and its ills at this point, but if I had a fire lit under me, I'd keep working on detection.

I don't think collectors expected certification to cure all ills. They just didn't expect it would institutionalize some of them.

 

That's kind of what dripped out over the years, revelation following revelation, slowly, from rumors to PCS all the way up to and including this very thread. Services provided + market incentives = huge increase in participation, regardless if the outcome is positive or negative over all. If you're allowed to try, try. Go for it. Right?

 

As far as focusing on detection, go back and read about "once it's in the holder". It's said to be incredibly tough, if possible at all.