Cole Schave collection: face jobs?

[comicwiz]

Welcome to life--most problems are never completely solved by human endeavor, they're just minimized. Thinking that certification could stop people from pushing the envelope on greed was an illusion. Blaming certification for problems nobody has a viable solution for isn't the way forward--finding more viable ways to stop the unethical is. I'm a bit apathetic to pressing and its ills at this point, but if I had a fire lit under me, I'd keep working on detection.

I don't think collectors expected certification to cure all ills. They just didn't expect it would institutionalize some of them.

 

Exactly.

 

This may partly be about familiarity breeding contempt, but overall I think this has less to do with failing to meet starry-eyed expectations, and more about an inability in believing it has come to this.

[DeliBebek]

This thread, and what it has revealed has been happening, brings to life a number of irrational fears - namely that certification hasn't really remedied the problem of books being over graded. It has arguably made it more prevalent and possibly worse by allowing manipulation techniques to pass through with the same desire of achieving a higher grade without merit, backed by a third-party endorsement of an over graded book.

I think it has also caused some newer collectors, perhaps older ones as well, to stop grading based on their own preferences. They simply buy a number.

[fantastic_four]

Welcome to life--most problems are never completely solved by human endeavor, they're just minimized. Thinking that certification could stop people from pushing the envelope on greed was an illusion. Blaming certification for problems nobody has a viable solution for isn't the way forward--finding more viable ways to stop the unethical is. I'm a bit apathetic to pressing and its ills at this point, but if I had a fire lit under me, I'd keep working on detection.

I don't think collectors expected certification to cure all ills. They just didn't expect it would institutionalize some of them.

 

What wildly_fanciful_statement. CGC didn't institutionalize undetectable non-additive restoration. That's the exact type of careless melodrama that keeps rational people like Steve who care about their reputation from wanting to post around you maniacs.

 

I don't know what you mean by "once it's in the holder." When I said if I cared enough about pressing I'd focus on detection, I meant I'd buy a boom microscope, perform a few non-additive restoration techniques, and look for microscopic patterns that are unique to each technique. You can't detect well-done pressing, microtrims, dry cleaning, etc. with your eyes, but perhaps microscopic footprints are left.

[fantastic_four]

Welcome to life--most problems are never completely solved by human endeavor, they're just minimized. Thinking that certification could stop people from pushing the envelope on greed was an illusion. Blaming certification for problems nobody has a viable solution for isn't the way forward--finding more viable ways to stop the unethical is. I'm a bit apathetic to pressing and its ills at this point, but if I had a fire lit under me, I'd keep working on detection.

I don't think collectors expected certification to cure all ills. They just didn't expect it would institutionalize some of them.

 

Exactly.

 

This may partly be about familiarity breeding contempt, but overall I think this has less to do with failing to meet starry-eyed expectations, and more about an inability in believing it has come to this.

 

It hasn't "come to" anything--it has always BEEN like this. The same types of people--and in at least a few cases the exact same individuals--that did this in the 90s are doing it now. It just took them some time to learn to the limits of the state of the art in restoration detection and how to work within those limits to make a profit.

[comicwiz]

Welcome to life--most problems are never completely solved by human endeavor, they're just minimized. Thinking that certification could stop people from pushing the envelope on greed was an illusion. Blaming certification for problems nobody has a viable solution for isn't the way forward--finding more viable ways to stop the unethical is. I'm a bit apathetic to pressing and its ills at this point, but if I had a fire lit under me, I'd keep working on detection.

I don't think collectors expected certification to cure all ills. They just didn't expect it would institutionalize some of them.

 

Exactly.

 

This may partly be about familiarity breeding contempt, but overall I think this has less to do with failing to meet starry-eyed expectations, and more about an inability in believing it has come to this.

 

It hasn't "come to anything"--it has always BEEN like this. The same types of people--and in at least a few cases the exact same individuals--that did this in the 90s are doing it now. It just took them some time to learn to the limits of the state of the art in restoration detection.

 

When did you hear about anyone refolding a new spine before the Avengers 1 was discovered?

[THE_BEYONDER]

Welcome to life--most problems are never completely solved by human endeavor, they're just minimized. Thinking that certification could stop people from pushing the envelope on greed was an illusion. Blaming certification for problems nobody has a viable solution for isn't the way forward--finding more viable ways to stop the unethical is. I'm a bit apathetic to pressing and its ills at this point, but if I had a fire lit under me, I'd keep working on detection.

I don't think collectors expected certification to cure all ills. They just didn't expect it would institutionalize some of them.

 

Exactly.

 

This may partly be about familiarity breeding contempt, but overall I think this has less to do with failing to meet starry-eyed expectations, and more about an inability in believing it has come to this.

 

It hasn't "come to anything"--it has always BEEN like this. The same types of people--and in at least a few cases the exact same individuals--that did this in the 90s are doing it now. It just took them some time to learn to the limits of the state of the art in restoration detection and how to work within those limits to make a profit.

 

The difference is CGC encapsulation. All the paper mechanics need to do is slip it by 3 graders, and it's entombed for life. Once in the slab...Borock himself couldn't detect the manipulation.

[fantastic_four]

It hasn't "come to anything"--it has always BEEN like this. The same types of people--and in at least a few cases the exact same individuals--that did this in the 90s are doing it now. It just took them some time to learn to the limits of the state of the art in restoration detection.

 

When did you hear about anyone refolding a new spine before the Avengers 1 was discovered?

 

I didn't. But now that we know who did it, are you the least bit surprised? This technique specifically was just more gaming by one of the exact same individuals who was gaming buyers in the 90s before CGC--it just took him a while to figure out something like performing an RSR to hide defects.

[comicwiz]

It hasn't "come to anything"--it has always BEEN like this. The same types of people--and in at least a few cases the exact same individuals--that did this in the 90s are doing it now. It just took them some time to learn to the limits of the state of the art in restoration detection.

 

When did you hear about anyone refolding a new spine before the Avengers 1 was discovered?

 

I didn't. But now that we know who did it, are you the least bit surprised?

 

Surprised would be an understatement. Yes, there is a checkered past trail, but it is still unbelievable to me that a method like this was used to game the system. That it has passed through on more than one occasion is where the "it has come to this" part of my statement derives.

[fantastic_four]

The difference is CGC encapsulation. All the paper mechanics need to do is slip it by 3 graders, and it's entombed for life. Once in the slab...Borock himself couldn't detect the manipulation.

 

What's your point?

[fantastic_four]

Surprised would be an understatement. Yes, there is a checkered past trail, but it is still unbelievable to me that a method like this was used to game the system. That it has passed through on more than one occasion is where the "it has come to this" part derives.

 

It's not to me, because I have ALWAYS believed the back cover should count for less than the front because that follows the function of how we read a comic, and it follows the ways that we appreciate the aesthetics of a comic's condition. The fact that he realized they were grading that way and brainstormed a way to game it was just a matter of time. However, I've not been able to reverse-engineer enough evidence from slabs to be able to determine whether or not CGC shares my view. If they don't, then yep, it's laziness and/or incompetence.

[THE_BEYONDER]

The difference is CGC encapsulation. All the paper mechanics need to do is slip it by 3 graders, and it's entombed for life. Once in the slab...Borock himself couldn't detect the manipulation.

 

What's your point?

 

You posted that basically nothing has changed. That gamers have always been gaming. That the introduction of CGC hasn't changed that.

 

That's BS. Encapsulation changed the game completely.

[blazingbob]

Manipulation has been in the grading business model from Coins/Cards. Again, why is everyone acting like the writing wasn't on the wall?

 

Encapsulation made it more profitable.

[fantastic_four]

The difference is CGC encapsulation. All the paper mechanics need to do is slip it by 3 graders, and it's entombed for life. Once in the slab...Borock himself couldn't detect the manipulation.

 

What's your point?

 

You posted that basically nothing has changed. That gamers have always been gaming. That the introduction of CGC hasn't changed that.

 

That's BS. Encapsulation changed the game completely.

 

So what's your alternative?

[Rip]

Are you saying CGC is making things worse?

 

What do you suggest be done?

[Rip]

! Posted the same thing at the same time.

[fantastic_four]

Manipulation has been in the grading business model from Coins/Cards. Again, why is everyone acting like the writing wasn't on the wall?

 

Encapsulation made it more profitable.

 

Did it? Is the guy doing RSRs making more from that than he did from trimming and color touching in the 90s? He was free to do that to any book he wanted before certification, but the supply of books he can game now is rather limited. Is he really making more now than then?

[Comicopolis]

Let's say I buy a book off the boards or Ebay and it's listed as FN and when I receive it it's actually a VG. When I put this to the seller they state that according to their standards it is a FN and when I politely ask to have those standards explained to me they reply with - "sorry, that's propriety information." What would be the best type of response in that situation?

 

I would not have asked them to explain their grading standards. I would have just returned the book if you thought you over paid and/or it was over graded.

 

But how do you determine if it is 'over graded' if you don't know what the standards are?

 

When grading a book for sale am I allowed to use Overstreet standards without their permission?

 

you grade it against your own personal standards. If it fits, keep it. If it doesn't, don't. You do not need someone else to tell you what is acceptable, or should be acceptable to you I should imagine

 

If everybody buys or sells based on their own personal standards then is there any need for an 'industry standard'?

 

That's like asking if there's any point in making murder illegal if people are going to choose to murder anyway. Yes, there's a point in standards, morals, ethics, and laws regardless of what individuals choose to do with their free will.

 

Er no, no it isn't.

[comicwiz]

The difference is CGC encapsulation. All the paper mechanics need to do is slip it by 3 graders, and it's entombed for life. Once in the slab...Borock himself couldn't detect the manipulation.

 

What's your point?

 

You posted that basically nothing has changed. That gamers have always been gaming. That the introduction of CGC hasn't changed that.

 

That's BS. Encapsulation changed the game completely.

 

It's a checkpoint function that may have originally been designed to discourage tampering, but turned out to be completely counter-intuitive to certification, because it provides cheaters such a lopsided advantage.

 

This is a massive departure from the kind of snakeoil endorsement bandied by Fantazia when marketing Eastern Color Uncirculated Books.

 

How?

 

The tarring and feathering of reputations catches up to the individual simply for the reasons when you buy from a seller, you're buying into their personal brand and reputation.

 

With certification, you have institutionalized the standards in a manner that fast-tracks transaction dynamics, anonymizes the players, and fortuitously, you have a supporting cast of venues willing to anonymously market and move slabs.

 

To suggest what happened in the past as being anything remotely resembling what's going on now is intellectually dishonest.

 

To suggest the agents of this system, who allow this to prosper, are an inscrutable part of the way this hobby has always functioned is a spurious argument.

[VintageComics]

It's sounding like everyone was expecting CGC to see ahead of time how the system was going to be gamed and should have taken precautions.

 

Doesn't the FBI fix problems after they happen? If some of the finest intelligence agencies in the world can't predict the future, why would a bunch of comic graders?

 

It's just not possible.

 

There are always people that are going to game the system. The person doing the RSR's is probably one of the best at finding loopholes and from what I've heard always has been. How do you stop someone like that?

 

[VintageComics]

Manipulation has been in the grading business model from Coins/Cards. Again, why is everyone acting like the writing wasn't on the wall?

 

Encapsulation made it more profitable.

 

Did it? Is the guy doing RSRs making more from that than he did from trimming and color touching in the 90s? He was free to do that to any book he wanted before certification, but the supply of books he can game now is rather limited. Is he really making more now than then?

 

And that's what Steve was trying to say.

 

You make the gateway smaller and smaller.