Cole Schave collection: face jobs?

[sborock]

After a long discussion with Steve Borock last night, we have determined two things...

1. It is a very interesting topic.

2. We have a lot more to discuss about it.

 

 

Would love to hear some details if time allows!

No way. You just hit the 'secret sauce" wall.

 

This is the same level of knowledge Hammer was alluding to when picking out the Ewert trims. Some unreal understanding of exactly where and how issues where manufactured and the traits of each. Apparently that kind of information has competitive value and held very close to the chest.

 

Refurbishing processes = secret sauce

Professional grading criteria = secret sauce

Original manufacturing processes and identifiers = secret sauce

 

Seems to be where the hobby's at. What isn't proprietary info, at that 'everyman' participant level, is the Grade Label and how much the asking price is. Beyond that, good luck.

 

 

 

As to what I know and you don't: Please put in the same amount of effort in research and learning that I did and you will know what I know. The info is out there and you can spend your time on this if it is that important to you. Very simple.

 

Once again, this is how I feed my family and keep a roof over our heads.

I also stated that I don't enjoy posting certain info because it helps the crooks get better at doing what they do.

What problem do you have with those two points?

 

This kind of post is why I don't post much anymore. I hate having to defend myself for no good reason and I just love having my name associated with Hammer. Yeah, I'm just like him.

 

Wow. Ok. My post was in no way derogatory. There was no "name associated with Hammer". (go back and notice your name was purposefully not even mentioned) And aside from that I remember some old post where you said yourself you would've hired Hammer on the spot if he wasn't such a crook. And I referred to Hammer because of that uncanny skill level of his, in the context of understanding manufacturing traits and anomalies.

 

There's really nothing to defend yourself from in my post. I understand fully the 'it's your livelihood' point. And I apologize if I offended you in any way.

 

 

 

Thanks.

 

My name seemed to be associated with your post because you quoted the other posts about sharing, or not sharing, info (secret sauce) that Dice and I talked about. My name is the first thing you see in that post. And, IMO, your other posts were suggesting that, for some reason, I and others, should share all the information we have so that others can have it and it seemed that you felt, in some way, we were doing you and others a dis-service.

 

I am very sorry if I took your post(s) the wrong way. so, I also apologize.

[sborock]

 

Hey Steve, I don't think anyone associates you with Hammer. You both have certain knowledge others don't. He just uses his in a negative way. Think of it this way

 

Steve B = Captain America

Hammer = Red Skull

 

 

Thanks.

 

 

[Davenport]

After a long discussion with Steve Borock last night, we have determined two things...

1. It is a very interesting topic.

2. We have a lot more to discuss about it.

 

 

Would love to hear some details if time allows!

No way. You just hit the 'secret sauce" wall.

 

This is the same level of knowledge Hammer was alluding to when picking out the Ewert trims. Some unreal understanding of exactly where and how issues where manufactured and the traits of each. Apparently that kind of information has competitive value and held very close to the chest.

 

Refurbishing processes = secret sauce

Professional grading criteria = secret sauce

Original manufacturing processes and identifiers = secret sauce

 

Seems to be where the hobby's at. What isn't proprietary info, at that 'everyman' participant level, is the Grade Label and how much the asking price is. Beyond that, good luck.

 

 

 

As to what I know and you don't: Please put in the same amount of effort in research and learning that I did and you will know what I know. The info is out there and you can spend your time on this if it is that important to you. Very simple.

 

Once again, this is how I feed my family and keep a roof over our heads.

I also stated that I don't enjoy posting certain info because it helps the crooks get better at doing what they do.

What problem do you have with those two points?

 

This kind of post is why I don't post much anymore. I hate having to defend myself for no good reason and I just love having my name associated with Hammer. Yeah, I'm just like him.

 

Wow. Ok. My post was in no way derogatory. There was no "name associated with Hammer". (go back and notice your name was purposefully not even mentioned) And aside from that I remember some old post where you said yourself you would've hired Hammer on the spot if he wasn't such a crook. And I referred to Hammer because of that uncanny skill level of his, in the context of understanding manufacturing traits and anomalies.

 

There's really nothing to defend yourself from in my post. I understand fully the 'it's your livelihood' point. And I apologize if I offended you in any way.

 

 

 

Thanks.

 

My name seemed to be associated with your post because you quoted the other posts about sharing, or not sharing, info (secret sauce) that Dice and I talked about. My name is the first thing you see in that post. And, IMO, your other posts were suggesting that, for some reason, I and others, should share all the information we have so that others can have it and it seemed that you felt, in some way, we were doing you and others a dis-service.

 

I am very sorry if I took your post(s) the wrong way. so, I also apologize.

Thank you, and no problem. VintageComics had already tagged my post as "nefarious". That tells me I didn't come across quite right, could've somehow said it better than I did.

 

I wasn't really speaking to if info should be shared or dis-service if not, just "how it is". A part of the hobby. Someone just coming in is only going to get so far. That was one of the things encapsulation was touted to change when it first came in. A safe level playing field for all. That's not exactly what it's evolved into.

 

So, here we are, like it or not, fair or not, much of the info today surrounding back issues is proprietary. That was my over-arching poorly stated point. Without several decades to prepare oneself and some generous insiders, those coming in are ill prepared.

 

 

[VintageComics]

The point that I think you are trying to get across is true in any field, though. It isn't exclusive to this hobby.

 

Information runs the gamut and as it becomes more profitable it's less easy to attain from someone who uses it to profit. I would think it goes without saying that there are always various stages of learning in everything, and those that push harder get further.

 

The only difference with this website in particular (and our perception of the hobby by extension) and the real world is that this website is a rare crossroads where both hobbyists and professionals meet and so the line between the (two) sides is blurred on a common ground which causes the cross section of experience to be massive.

 

On a con floor that line would be distinctly drawn by a table or a panel stage and you wouldn't get the same amount of exchange.

 

 

 

 

[comicwiz]

After a long discussion with Steve Borock last night, we have determined two things...

1. It is a very interesting topic.

2. We have a lot more to discuss about it.

 

 

Would love to hear some details if time allows!

No way. You just hit the 'secret sauce" wall.

 

This is the same level of knowledge Hammer was alluding to when picking out the Ewert trims. Some unreal understanding of exactly where and how issues where manufactured and the traits of each. Apparently that kind of information has competitive value and held very close to the chest.

 

Refurbishing processes = secret sauce

Professional grading criteria = secret sauce

Original manufacturing processes and identifiers = secret sauce

 

Seems to be where the hobby's at. What isn't proprietary info, at that 'everyman' participant level, is the Grade Label and how much the asking price is. Beyond that, good luck.

 

 

 

As to what I know and you don't: Please put in the same amount of effort in research and learning that I did and you will know what I know. The info is out there and you can spend your time on this if it is that important to you. Very simple.

 

Once again, this is how I feed my family and keep a roof over our heads.

I also stated that I don't enjoy posting certain info because it helps the crooks get better at doing what they do.

What problem do you have with those two points?

 

This kind of post is why I don't post much anymore. I hate having to defend myself for no good reason and I just love having my name associated with Hammer. Yeah, I'm just like him.

 

Wow. Ok. My post was in no way derogatory. There was no "name associated with Hammer". (go back and notice your name was purposefully not even mentioned) And aside from that I remember some old post where you said yourself you would've hired Hammer on the spot if he wasn't such a crook. And I referred to Hammer because of that uncanny skill level of his, in the context of understanding manufacturing traits and anomalies.

 

There's really nothing to defend yourself from in my post. I understand fully the 'it's your livelihood' point. And I apologize if I offended you in any way.

 

 

 

Thanks.

 

My name seemed to be associated with your post because you quoted the other posts about sharing, or not sharing, info (secret sauce) that Dice and I talked about. My name is the first thing you see in that post. And, IMO, your other posts were suggesting that, for some reason, I and others, should share all the information we have so that others can have it and it seemed that you felt, in some way, we were doing you and others a dis-service.

 

I am very sorry if I took your post(s) the wrong way. so, I also apologize.

Thank you, and no problem. VintageComics had already tagged my post as "nefarious". That tells me I didn't come across quite right, could've somehow said it better than I did.

 

I wasn't really speaking to if info should be shared or dis-service if not, just that "it is". A part of the hobby. Someone just coming in is only going to get so far. That was one of the things encapsulation was touted to change when it first came in. A safe level playing field for all. That's not exactly what its evolved into.

 

So, here we are, like it or not, fair or not, much of the info today surrounding back issues is proprietary. That was my over-arching poorly stated point. Without several decades to prepare oneself and some generous insiders, those coming in are ill prepared.

 

 

As a collector, the knee-jerk reaction might be to get frustrated over knowledge/information held too closely guarded. I know I've felt this way in other hobbies I pursue.

 

I also think it's a perfectly reasonable reaction to be guarded about it to keep the crooks in check, and to get people off the couch and do the research themselves.

 

Steve's always been gracious with his time and assistance when it's asked of him, so I see this being more of a need for people to dig deep on the knowledge acquisition themselves.

 

The misconception people have is that research can be a time suck, but in my experience, the research component opens so many doors that you rarely bother dwelling on the time you expend.

[Davenport]

The point that I think you are trying to get across is true in any field, though. It isn't exclusive to this hobby.

 

Information runs the gamut and as it becomes more profitable it's less easy to attain from someone who uses it to profit. I would think it goes without saying that there are always various stages of learning in everything, and those that push harder get further.

 

The only difference with this website in particular (and our perception of the hobby by extension) and the real world is that this website is a rare crossroads where both hobbyists and professionals meet and so the line between the (two) sides is blurred on a common ground which causes the cross section of experience to be massive.

 

On a con floor that line would be distinctly drawn by a table or a panel stage and you wouldn't get the same amount of exchange.

I hear you. I guess my mindset is so much simpler that all that. Different perspective.

 

You only need look at "Black Friday" and "Cyber Monday" to understand it's fairly universal that people enjoy "a bargain". It's how human beings roll. They appreciate getting a deal.

 

So it's hard for me to imagine anyone would appreciate discovering they payed umpteen more dollars for some back issue because someone created a new spine-fold for it last month.

 

But that's the hobby today. The topic of this thread. It's like the opposite of "Black Friday". It's structured more like "Fleece Fest". Come on in.

 

And it's not really something you can honestly expect fans of comic book art, characters and stories to prepare themselves for. Not really.

 

 

[comicwiz]

But that's the hobby today. The topic of this thread. It's like the opposite of "Black Friday". It's structured more like "Fleece Fest". Come on in.

 

Truth

[sborock]

The point that I think you are trying to get across is true in any field, though. It isn't exclusive to this hobby.

 

Information runs the gamut and as it becomes more profitable it's less easy to attain from someone who uses it to profit. I would think it goes without saying that there are always various stages of learning in everything, and those that push harder get further.

 

The only difference with this website in particular (and our perception of the hobby by extension) and the real world is that this website is a rare crossroads where both hobbyists and professionals meet and so the line between the (two) sides is blurred on a common ground which causes the cross section of experience to be massive.

 

On a con floor that line would be distinctly drawn by a table or a panel stage and you wouldn't get the same amount of exchange.

 

 

Well stated, Roy!

[sborock]

 

As a collector, the knee-jerk reaction might be to get frustrated over knowledge/information held too closely guarded. I know I've felt this way in other hobbies I pursue.

 

I also think it's a perfectly reasonable reaction to be guarded about it to keep the crooks in check, and to get people off the couch and do the research themselves.

 

 

The misconception people have is that research can be a time suck, but in my experience, the research component opens so many doors that you rarely bother dwelling on the time you expend.

 

Another great post!

[Straw-Man]

The irony of all this is that it has come to a point where raw books have a lower chance of having been tinkered with. Awesome. It's not quite there yet for me, but being in a CGC case is becoming synonymous with pressed.

 

Close to how I think. I don't think I have ever heard of someone pressing a book that was not going to get graded.

 

about 3/4 of the books i've had pressed over the years are still raw. talking maybe 50 books pressed over the years.

[sborock]

But that's the hobby today. The topic of this thread. It's like the opposite of "Black Friday". It's structured more like "Fleece Fest". Come on in.

 

Truth

 

Yes, this thread is about some bad mess. But that said, I really believe that the hobby is much better off now with certification and these boards, then it was before. But, because I got screwed over a bunch of times, it made me study "collectible" comics to the point that I make very, very few mistakes these days. Sometimes, as John Hiatt would say, "That's how you learn, you just get burned". Which sucks, but it either makes you leave the hobby or gets you off your butt and learn, Every veteran hobbyist on these boards, has been burned.

 

Everyday I write my daughter a note that I put in her lunch bag, and on it I always write a quote before I write "Have a great day! I Love you!". One of those quotes I write quite often is "We learn and grow by our own mistakes." It just stinks when those mistakes in life cost us money or the enjoyment of something we love.

[slym2none]

Every veteran hobbyist on these boards, has been burned.

 

QFT

 

 

 

-slym

[Comicopolis]

Let's say I buy a book off the boards or Ebay and it's listed as FN and when I receive it it's actually a VG. When I put this to the seller they state that according to their standards it is a FN and when I politely ask to have those standards explained to me they reply with - "sorry, that's propriety information." What would be the best type of response in that situation?

[THE_BEYONDER]

Hey SB

 

 

Can you enlighten us a bit about what you believe happened to the Schave books? ie; what caused the covers to shrink/ did the covers actually shrink?

 

 

 

Thanks

[sborock]

Let's say I buy a book off the boards or Ebay and it's listed as FN and when I receive it it's actually a VG. When I put this to the seller they state that according to their standards it is a FN and when I politely ask to have those standards explained to me they reply with - "sorry, that's propriety information." What would be the best type of response in that situation?

 

I would not have asked them to explain their grading standards. I would have just returned the book if you thought you over paid and/or it was over graded.

[Comicopolis]

Let's say I buy a book off the boards or Ebay and it's listed as FN and when I receive it it's actually a VG. When I put this to the seller they state that according to their standards it is a FN and when I politely ask to have those standards explained to me they reply with - "sorry, that's propriety information." What would be the best type of response in that situation?

 

I would not have asked them to explain their grading standards. I would have just returned the book if you thought you over paid and/or it was over graded.

 

But how do you determine if it is 'over graded' if you don't know what the standards are?

 

When grading a book for sale am I allowed to use Overstreet standards without their permission?

[ciorac]

Let's say I buy a book off the boards or Ebay and it's listed as FN and when I receive it it's actually a VG. When I put this to the seller they state that according to their standards it is a FN and when I politely ask to have those standards explained to me they reply with - "sorry, that's propriety information." What would be the best type of response in that situation?

 

I would not have asked them to explain their grading standards. I would have just returned the book if you thought you over paid and/or it was over graded.

 

But how do you determine if it is 'over graded' if you don't know what the standards are?

 

When grading a book for sale am I allowed to use Overstreet standards without their permission?

 

you grade it against your own personal standards. If it fits, keep it. If it doesn't, don't. You do not need someone else to tell you what is acceptable, or should be acceptable to you I should imagine

[sborock]

Hey SB

 

 

Can you enlighten us a bit about what you believe happened to the Schave books? ie; what caused the covers to shrink/ did the covers actually shrink?

 

 

 

Thanks

 

Improper pressing.

 

 

[Comicopolis]

Let's say I buy a book off the boards or Ebay and it's listed as FN and when I receive it it's actually a VG. When I put this to the seller they state that according to their standards it is a FN and when I politely ask to have those standards explained to me they reply with - "sorry, that's propriety information." What would be the best type of response in that situation?

 

I would not have asked them to explain their grading standards. I would have just returned the book if you thought you over paid and/or it was over graded.

 

But how do you determine if it is 'over graded' if you don't know what the standards are?

 

When grading a book for sale am I allowed to use Overstreet standards without their permission?

 

you grade it against your own personal standards. If it fits, keep it. If it doesn't, don't. You do not need someone else to tell you what is acceptable, or should be acceptable to you I should imagine

 

If everybody buys or sells based on their own personal standards then is there any need for an 'industry standard'?

[sborock]

Let's say I buy a book off the boards or Ebay and it's listed as FN and when I receive it it's actually a VG. When I put this to the seller they state that according to their standards it is a FN and when I politely ask to have those standards explained to me they reply with - "sorry, that's propriety information." What would be the best type of response in that situation?

 

I would not have asked them to explain their grading standards. I would have just returned the book if you thought you over paid and/or it was over graded.

 

But how do you determine if it is 'over graded' if you don't know what the standards are?

 

When grading a book for sale am I allowed to use Overstreet standards without their permission?

 

you grade it against your own personal standards. If it fits, keep it. If it doesn't, don't. You do not need someone else to tell you what is acceptable, or should be acceptable to you I should imagine

 

Personal standards are best, but if you are a novice, you should show it to a dealer, or seasoned collector, you trust. There is also the "please grade my book" (or something like that) thread, which can be helpful.

 

You are "allowed" to use OS grading standards, that's how most of us learned.