Comic Book Spine Realignment Therapy, turn your 8.5's into 9.2's!

[Davenport]

That is the point. They won't even have to read the boards, will never have to see the threads. The market capitalization of high grade books just dropped across the board. Unless, this book is an anomaly and was simply graded wrong.

Why would it be an anomaly?

 

The multi-year 'dancing around it' period ended with the Schmell mega-payday. Classics Inc was acquired. CCS is a formal part of the 'submission success formula'.

 

It's on.

I was giving them an out

Nothing personal. Thread just seems weird. Like everyone was asleep the past... decade? That's all.

 

This board was like ground zero for championing this stuff.

 

A decade designing a garden. Then freak out over the fruit. Weird.

 

I'm on board with the idea that the acceptance of simple pressing was the catalyst for where we are now. But it doesn't follow that advocates of vanilla pressing shouldn't be bothered by where we are now. There are degrees.

But that's just it. It was never just 'simple pressing'. Non-additive tweaks were in play from day-one, all of them. It just took a decade to drag it into the light and start openly promoting it..

 

Right, but what was initially put out there for consideration was 'simple pressing', with the other stuff coming to light gradually. So there will be some who may have initially been fine with the idea of simply flattening a book to remove a few non color-breaking dents, who don't like spine realignment.

I understand that.

 

But green-lighting manipulation, buying a manipulation company to better serve clients, probably means you're going to get manipulation. Lots of it. And not just the barely-there kind.

 

Inch, meet Mile.

[MK Ultra]

Valid points that I wasn't aware of, thanks for the input.

 

I wonder what's the break even for this type of activity? Buy book, do work, resub, selling expenses, time spent, risk of capital.

 

I wonder how beneficial it would be to have CGC update their census, or alter the census to include two numbers: all graded copies (which they're unaware of the resub) and all verified copies where the owner has confirmed they still exist.

[COI]

That is the point. They won't even have to read the boards, will never have to see the threads. The market capitalization of high grade books just dropped across the board. Unless, this book is an anomaly and was simply graded wrong.

Why would it be an anomaly?

 

The multi-year 'dancing around it' period ended with the Schmell mega-payday. Classics Inc was acquired. CCS is a formal part of the 'submission success formula'.

 

It's on.

I was giving them an out

Nothing personal. Thread just seems weird. Like everyone was asleep the past... decade? That's all.

 

This board was like ground zero for championing this stuff.

 

A decade designing a garden. Then freak out over the fruit. Weird.

 

I'm on board with the idea that the acceptance of simple pressing was the catalyst for where we are now. But it doesn't follow that advocates of vanilla pressing shouldn't be bothered by where we are now. There are degrees.

But that's just it. It was never just 'simple pressing'. Non-additive tweaks were in play from day-one, all of them. It just took a decade to drag it into the light and start openly promoting it..

 

Right, but what was initially put out there for consideration was 'simple pressing', with the other stuff coming to light gradually. So there will be some who may have initially been fine with the idea of simply flattening a book to remove a few non color-breaking dents, who don't like spine realignment.

I understand that.

 

But green-lighting manipulation, buying a manipulation company to serve clients, probably means you're going to get manipulation. Lots of it. And not just the barely-there kind.

 

Inch, meet Mile.

 

No argument there.

[Flaming_Telepath]

If someone is spending $45,000.00 on one comic book, and they don't know what they're doing, they have so much money, they'll be okay.

 

BTW, how many people aren't aware of the peculiarities of pressing, crack sub resubmit, trimming, etc., but are aware of GPA?

 

My concern is for the buyer at 60K last November of a copy that may very well be graded correctly, whose book may now be devalued by the potential sale of this copy which was grossly overgraded. Knowledge of pressing and CRP are a different animal than CGC overgading a particular copy.

 

I can see the point.

 

However, where do we stand if that $60,000 9.2 used to be a 7.5 but was disassembled and simply pressed to a 9.2 without alignment shenanigans?

[nearmint]

If someone is spending $45,000.00 on one comic book, and they don't know what they're doing, they have so much money, they'll be okay.

 

BTW, how many people aren't aware of the peculiarities of pressing, crack sub resubmit, trimming, etc., but are aware of GPA?

 

My concern is for the buyer at 60K last November of a copy that may very well be graded correctly, whose book may now be devalued by the potential sale of this copy which was grossly overgraded. Knowledge of pressing and CRP are a different animal than CGC overgading a particular copy.

 

I can see the point.

 

However, where do we stand if that $60,000 9.2 used to be a 7.5 but was disassembled and simply pressed to a 9.2 without alignment shenanigans?

 

If it was a book with pressable defects that bumped up the grade, I have no problem with that. But this is a case where the book has the same defects(nonpressable), if not more, and received a significant upgrade. I have a big problem with that. The fact that the defects are now on the back cover, or on the spine, shouldn't matter.

[Flaming_Telepath]

If someone is spending $45,000.00 on one comic book, and they don't know what they're doing, they have so much money, they'll be okay.

 

BTW, how many people aren't aware of the peculiarities of pressing, crack sub resubmit, trimming, etc., but are aware of GPA?

 

My concern is for the buyer at 60K last November of a copy that may very well be graded correctly, whose book may now be devalued by the potential sale of this copy which was grossly overgraded. Knowledge of pressing and CRP are a different animal than CGC overgading a particular copy.

 

I can see the point.

 

However, where do we stand if that $60,000 9.2 used to be a 7.5 but was disassembled and simply pressed to a 9.2 without alignment shenanigans?

 

If it was a book with pressable defects that bumped up the grade, I have no problem with that. But this is a case where the book has the same defects(nonpressable), if not more, and received a significant upgrade. I have a big problem with that. The fact that the defects are now on the back cover, or on the spine, shouldn't matter.

 

Fully understand. The fact that it was/is grossly overgraded somewhat clouds the issue.

 

However, my point is...surely it's simply a matter of degree?

 

We opened the door to pressing...so we get pressing, in all its myriad forms. Are we now saying that there are certain things you shouldn't be allowed to press?

[Davenport]

We opened the door to pressing...so we get pressing, in all its myriad forms. Are we now saying that there are certain things you shouldn't be allowed to press?

'The Game' thrives on not being noticed. (like the early tactic of dropping Pedigree notations)

 

This book's sin is being noticeably ridiculous, as opposed to just ridiculous. We seen much broader swings and way weirder tactics, just less overt.

[nearmint]

If someone is spending $45,000.00 on one comic book, and they don't know what they're doing, they have so much money, they'll be okay.

 

BTW, how many people aren't aware of the peculiarities of pressing, crack sub resubmit, trimming, etc., but are aware of GPA?

 

My concern is for the buyer at 60K last November of a copy that may very well be graded correctly, whose book may now be devalued by the potential sale of this copy which was grossly overgraded. Knowledge of pressing and CRP are a different animal than CGC overgading a particular copy.

 

I can see the point.

 

However, where do we stand if that $60,000 9.2 used to be a 7.5 but was disassembled and simply pressed to a 9.2 without alignment shenanigans?

 

If it was a book with pressable defects that bumped up the grade, I have no problem with that. But this is a case where the book has the same defects(nonpressable), if not more, and received a significant upgrade. I have a big problem with that. The fact that the defects are now on the back cover, or on the spine, shouldn't matter.

 

Fully understand. The fact that it was/is grossly overgraded somewhat clouds the issue.

 

However, my point is...surely it's simply a matter of degree?

 

We opened the door to pressing...so we get pressing, in all its myriad forms. Are we now saying that there are certain things you shouldn't be allowed to press?

 

No, I don't think it's a matter of degree. In one example, the condition of the book has been improved by pressing. In the other example, pressing has merely moved the defects to another area of the book, it hasn't improved them. In my mind, the first example receives a legitimate grade bump, but the second example receiving a grade bump makes no sense at all.

[porky]

If someone is spending $45,000.00 on one comic book, and they don't know what they're doing, they have so much money, they'll be okay.

 

BTW, how many people aren't aware of the peculiarities of pressing, crack sub resubmit, trimming, etc., but are aware of GPA?

 

My concern is for the buyer at 60K last November of a copy that may very well be graded correctly, whose book may now be devalued by the potential sale of this copy which was grossly overgraded. Knowledge of pressing and CRP are a different animal than CGC overgading a particular copy.

 

I can see the point.

 

However, where do we stand if that $60,000 9.2 used to be a 7.5 but was disassembled and simply pressed to a 9.2 without alignment shenanigans?

 

If it was a book with pressable defects that bumped up the grade, I have no problem with that. But this is a case where the book has the same defects(nonpressable), if not more, and received a significant upgrade. I have a big problem with that. The fact that the defects are now on the back cover, or on the spine, shouldn't matter.

 

Fully understand. The fact that it was/is grossly overgraded somewhat clouds the issue.

 

However, my point is...surely it's simply a matter of degree?

 

We opened the door to pressing...so we get pressing, in all its myriad forms. Are we now saying that there are certain things you shouldn't be allowed to press?

 

No, I don't think it's a matter of degree. In one example, the condition of the book has been improved by pressing. In the other example, pressing has merely moved the defects to another area of the book, it hasn't improved them. In my mind, the first example receives a legitimate grade bump, but the second example receiving a grade bump makes no sense at all.

 

yeah. it's apples and oranges.

like i said on the thread in the silver room:

 

the idea of "good" pressing is to smooth out defects and make the comic closer to the state it was in when printed. this new "bad" pressing is just creating a very controlled spine roll to move the spine creases to the back cover. that's not the book's original published state.

 

i don't think this sort of pressing should be banned or anything, but CGC should grade it like it is: a book with a pronounced spine roll.

[MrBedrock]

 

Someone with more money than brains

 

A lot of people say that the statement above applies to anyone who spends money on old funnybooks.

[nearmint]

 

Someone with more money than brains

 

A lot of people say that the statement above applies to anyone who spends money on old funnybooks.

 

It certainly applies to me.

[comicwiz]

So are you guys saying that this type of work is something not offered by Matt Nelson?

 

I'm not sure if you're directing this question to me, but I don't know.

 

What I do know is that agencies like the FTC need to be alerted of this type of fraud and manipulation, and I'll leave it to them to decide the appropriate action for consumer redress.

 

The comics market is an unregulated market; the FTC would not hear any of this...

 

Sorry CAL...

 

Unless you are an investigator or are employed by the FTC, I don't think it's appropriate for you to give an opinion on how they decide to act on complaints they collect.

 

On your point about the "unregulated" comic hobby, I would say that you need to do a refresher on past FTC charges and a $1.2 million redress plan against a coin certification company's representative accused of "failures to disclose information which misled consumers [coin collectors] as to the value of certified coins."

 

I see this as an act of destroying a comic, by creating a new bind to mask the defects on the original production bind, and look at it on the same level as someone restriking a high relief double eagle to get an ultra high relief example.

 

You've heard my piece on the manipulation and fraud, but the fact that this Avengers 1 got certified without it being flagged is disgraceful. Period.

[The-Collector]

But among books with same grade, don't books with white pages get higher prices? Don't books with no miscut or miswrap get higher prices? I don't see that changing, yet consensus appears to be that now all high grade books are going to drop in value. I don't think they will. I've never bought a book that costs this much, but if I did, I wouldn't sell it for less than what I bought.

 

Let's say the owner accepts an offer of 45K on eBay. GPA records the sale, which is 15K less than the last sale of a 9.2 in November. What does that new data point do to the value of other 9.2 copies, especially in the minds of potential buyers who aren't aware of the peculiarities of this copy?

 

This is a problem with the detail provided by gpa and the Cgc assigned grade as much as it is the pressing process.

 

For the price paid for many of these books the comic market is quite unsophisticated.

[500Club]

No, I don't think it's a matter of degree. In one example, the condition of the book has been improved by pressing. In the other example, pressing has merely moved the defects to another area of the book, it hasn't improved them. In my mind, the first example receives a legitimate grade bump, but the second example receiving a grade bump makes no sense at all.

It comes down to the fundamental question of the role aesthetics plays in a grade.

[500Club]

If someone is spending $45,000.00 on one comic book, and they don't know what they're doing, they have so much money, they'll be okay.

 

BTW, how many people aren't aware of the peculiarities of pressing, crack sub resubmit, trimming, etc., but are aware of GPA?

 

My concern is for the buyer at 60K last November of a copy that may very well be graded correctly, whose book may now be devalued by the potential sale of this copy which was grossly overgraded. Knowledge of pressing and CRP are a different animal than CGC overgading a particular copy.

 

I can see the point.

 

However, where do we stand if that $60,000 9.2 used to be a 7.5 but was disassembled and simply pressed to a 9.2 without alignment shenanigans?

 

If it was a book with pressable defects that bumped up the grade, I have no problem with that. But this is a case where the book has the same defects(nonpressable), if not more, and received a significant upgrade. I have a big problem with that. The fact that the defects are now on the back cover, or on the spine, shouldn't matter.

 

Fully understand. The fact that it was/is grossly overgraded somewhat clouds the issue.

 

However, my point is...surely it's simply a matter of degree?

 

We opened the door to pressing...so we get pressing, in all its myriad forms. Are we now saying that there are certain things you shouldn't be allowed to press?

 

No, I don't think it's a matter of degree. In one example, the condition of the book has been improved by pressing. In the other example, pressing has merely moved the defects to another area of the book, it hasn't improved them. In my mind, the first example receives a legitimate grade bump, but the second example receiving a grade bump makes no sense at all.

 

yeah. it's apples and oranges.

like i said on the thread in the silver room:

 

the idea of "good" pressing is to smooth out defects and make the comic closer to the state it was in when printed. this new "bad" pressing is just creating a very controlled spine roll to move the spine creases to the back cover. that's not the book's original published state.

 

i don't think this sort of pressing should be banned or anything, but CGC should grade it like it is: a book with a pronounced spine roll.

There is no spine roll. The book is flat.

 

What is occurring is the spine is being rotated around the central axis, shifting the wrap 1/8 to 1/4 inch towards the back cover.

[nearmint]

No, I don't think it's a matter of degree. In one example, the condition of the book has been improved by pressing. In the other example, pressing has merely moved the defects to another area of the book, it hasn't improved them. In my mind, the first example receives a legitimate grade bump, but the second example receiving a grade bump makes no sense at all.

It comes down to the fundamental question of the role aesthetics plays in a grade.

 

But CGC already did that for this copy when they graded it 8.5. Why would it upgrade just because the defects have been moved to the spine or back cover?

[500Club]

No, I don't think it's a matter of degree. In one example, the condition of the book has been improved by pressing. In the other example, pressing has merely moved the defects to another area of the book, it hasn't improved them. In my mind, the first example receives a legitimate grade bump, but the second example receiving a grade bump makes no sense at all.

It comes down to the fundamental question of the role aesthetics plays in a grade.

 

But CGC already did that for this copy when they graded it 8.5. Why would it upgrade just because the defects have been moved to the spine or back cover?

Because they are less noticeable; hence the term aesthetics. This is in contrast to simply mathematically tallying defects and scoring a book.

[Green]

No, I don't think it's a matter of degree. In one example, the condition of the book has been improved by pressing. In the other example, pressing has merely moved the defects to another area of the book, it hasn't improved them. In my mind, the first example receives a legitimate grade bump, but the second example receiving a grade bump makes no sense at all.

It comes down to the fundamental question of the role aesthetics plays in a grade.

 

But CGC already did that for this copy when they graded it 8.5. Why would it upgrade just because the defects have been moved to the spine or back cover?

I have always been a firm believer that CGC weighs heavily on how far into a book damage occurs. As in a 1 inch crease that is 1/8th of an inch away from the edge will count off less than a crease of the same size that is a full inch away from the edge. Ive talked to others who agree to varying extents.

[comicwiz]

No, I don't think it's a matter of degree. In one example, the condition of the book has been improved by pressing. In the other example, pressing has merely moved the defects to another area of the book, it hasn't improved them. In my mind, the first example receives a legitimate grade bump, but the second example receiving a grade bump makes no sense at all.

It comes down to the fundamental question of the role aesthetics plays in a grade.

 

But CGC already did that for this copy when they graded it 8.5. Why would it upgrade just because the defects have been moved to the spine or back cover?

Because they are less noticeable; hence the term aesthetics.

 

Aesthetics is one thing, but you're implying they only grade the front cover. I know we've seen the slippery slope of CGC's grading in all its fumbled glory over the years, but the day the grade on the label ONLY represents the front cover is the day we might as well start ripping the front covers off and trashing the interiors and rear wrap to make room for more covers in our long boxes.

[nearmint]

No, I don't think it's a matter of degree. In one example, the condition of the book has been improved by pressing. In the other example, pressing has merely moved the defects to another area of the book, it hasn't improved them. In my mind, the first example receives a legitimate grade bump, but the second example receiving a grade bump makes no sense at all.

It comes down to the fundamental question of the role aesthetics plays in a grade.

 

But CGC already did that for this copy when they graded it 8.5. Why would it upgrade just because the defects have been moved to the spine or back cover?

Because they are less noticeable; hence the term aesthetics. This is in contrast to simply mathematically tallying defects and scoring a book.

 

I don't think CGC is grading on aesthetics. I've had too many books downgraded because of stains invisible to my eye. The defects are either there or they're not, and should be downgraded for regardless of where they're located.