Comic Book Spine Realignment Therapy, turn your 8.5's into 9.2's!

[rjpb]

These shenanigans have been going on for quite some time now. In August 2011, the White Mountain copy of Strange Adventures #7 in CGC Qualified 9.0 sold at auction (ComicLink):

 

 

Two months later, it reappeared on ebay as a CGC Universal 7.5 (with label notation "one piece of tape on interior cover") S/N 01837500002. The seller was Mark Wilson, via his dizneyart handle. I have no idea who was responsible for applying tape to this beautiful pedigree. However, in my opinion, folks who show a clear disregard for the long term health of our community and/or the artifacts we treasure are not deserving of our support.

 

 

 

 

Thanks for sharing, Double Z. (thumbs u

 

I couldn't locate the after image but I was able to identify the original certification number (as blurry as it was).

 

That jagged double tear above the top staple appears to be flayed open like a barbecued lobster tail.

 

Apparently it's now sealed up with tape to achieve a certified blue. Talk about surgical precision from inside the cover ala the Wilson Manipulation Model.

 

Anyway, here's my lame attempt at graphical highlighting with regard to the discontinuity in question, in addition are verification results of original and subsequent certification numbers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm surprised this book got a Q grade to start with. The tear should have been factored into the grade, and if the book is otherwise a 9.0, it should have been docked to a 7.0 at best. After tape is added the book still has the tears, just now with the added onus of tape. This goes to the real problem of CGC's attitude towards tape repair. It's not the color of the label, but that by their standards tape actually seems to improve the grade when added. This is especially troubling when the book gets better than a 6.0.

 

I have a GA book that looks like a 5.0 +, but has tape at the interior staples, and was graded a 4.0 Universal several years ago by CGC ( since cracked out). Assuming the cover would be loose or detached without the tape, the book would probably grade no better than a 2.5/3.0 with no tape added. This grade bump is questionable enough, but at least it's graded lower than it would have been without tape, and still in the lower grade range. Books retaining a 7.0 and up grade with tape used to hold the cover on is crazy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[nearmint]

 

I'm surprised this book got a Q grade to start with.

 

 

Only because it was graded in the early days of CGC, when the qualified label was used far more often than it is today.

[zzutak]

Tape should never improve the grade.

I totally agree. As rjpb suggests, the simplest way of deterring the tape surgeons out there would be to grade the book as it would appear if the tape did not exist. If the community prefers to see CGC act as a "hanging" judge, a further one or two grade increment penalty could then be assessed for the presence of the tape.

 

As an example, the Our Fighting Forces #1 in Qualified 9.0 would become a Universal 6.5~7.0 (the blue label grade typically assigned to a VF/NM-appearing book with a cover detached at a single staple) or a Universal 5.5~6.0 (as an added penalty for the long-term damage associated with non-archival tape).

 

The OFF #1 example makes it clear that "spine realignment" is not the only tool in this particular surgeon's chest. The OFF #1 and Strange Adventures #7 repairs were both at or very near the staple. I would not be surprised to learn that our chiropractor has perfected a to-date undetectable technique for removing/replacing staples.

[bluechip]

Tape should never improve the grade.

I totally agree. As rjpb suggests, the simplest way of deterring the tape surgeons out there would be to grade the book as it would appear if the tape did not exist. If the community prefers to see CGC act as a "hanging" judge, a further one or two grade increment penalty could then be assessed for the presence of the tape.

 

As an example, the Our Fighting Forces #1 in Qualified 9.0 would become a Universal 6.5~7.0 (the blue label grade typically assigned to a VF/NM-appearing book with a cover detached at a single staple) or a Universal 5.5~6.0 (as an added penalty for the long-term damage associated with non-archival tape).

 

The OFF #1 example makes it clear that "spine realignment" is not the only tool in this particular surgeon's chest. The OFF #1 and Strange Adventures #7 repairs were both at or very near the staple. I would not be surprised to learn that our chiropractor has perfected a to-date undetectable technique for removing/replacing staples.

 

If people want CGC to be a "hanging judge" then they should be logical and emotionless about it, and ask that tape be downgraded not because of some perceived unacceptable thought process behind the placement of the tape, but because the tape is an ADDITIONAL DEFECT.

 

In other words, grade as if the tape weren't there (by including the tear in the grade) and also grade as if the tape IS there -- because it is. And because it causes additional damage to the book.

 

 

[Badger]

I

Nice to see my collection getting defiled like this

 

I really feel for you, Paratrooper. As an appreciator of the old skool DC War books, there was nothing wrong with that Our Fighting Forces #1 in the Qualified holder. It was a nicely-centered vintage comic book with a popped staple -- no big deal IMO. It looked great and displayed well in the holder. I have seen high-grade GLODs with popped staples still command decent money (Batman #222 comes immediately to mind), so there was no reason to further monkey with that book. Also, the pedigree designation linked it to a piece of comic collecting history, so added bonus.

 

In its current 8.5 form, it looks like an over-graded book with a slight spine roll and a piece of tape stuck to it somewhere.

 

If the conventional understanding of the labels is this:

 

Blue = "universal" = "normal" = widely accepted commodity

Green = "qualified" = "out of the ordinary" = limited market for those who are okay with the defect, unconfirmed signature, etc

 

This book seems to turn this logic upside-down. The original GLOD is a typical vintage comic book, while the 8.5 universal grade is the oddity!

Ive never seen a book with tape grade an 8.5 before. That's INSANITY.

 

+10000000

[Badger]

I'm still spooned off about this.

 

Has anybody heard from CGC about any progress?

[spidermanbeyond]

This post is interesting and also disheartening to collectors. This post has gotten has also gotten so long it is hard to follow and read it all. I saw ZAID post that CGC is aware of the issue and asking for seller to send books back for review (good luck with that). Any news/word/update officially from CGC???

[1koko]

Tape should never improve the grade.

I totally agree. As rjpb suggests, the simplest way of deterring the tape surgeons out there would be to grade the book as it would appear if the tape did not exist. If the community prefers to see CGC act as a "hanging" judge, a further one or two grade increment penalty could then be assessed for the presence of the tape.

 

As an example, the Our Fighting Forces #1 in Qualified 9.0 would become a Universal 6.5~7.0 (the blue label grade typically assigned to a VF/NM-appearing book with a cover detached at a single staple) or a Universal 5.5~6.0 (as an added penalty for the long-term damage associated with non-archival tape).

 

The OFF #1 example makes it clear that "spine realignment" is not the only tool in this particular surgeon's chest. The OFF #1 and Strange Adventures #7 repairs were both at or very near the staple. I would not be surprised to learn that our chiropractor has perfected a to-date undetectable technique for removing/replacing staples.

 

If people want CGC to be a "hanging judge" then they should be logical and emotionless about it, and ask that tape be downgraded not because of some perceived unacceptable thought process behind the placement of the tape, but because the tape is an ADDITIONAL DEFECT.

 

In other words, grade as if the tape weren't there (by including the tear in the grade) and also grade as if the tape IS there -- because it is. And because it causes additional damage to the book.

 

 

Agree - cap a Universal grade at the grade if the tape wasn't there and then lower grade for use of non-archival tape.

 

If looking at a restored grade then the use of archival tape wouldn't lower the grade as it doesn't damage a book. Non-archival tape shoudl still lower grade as damages book.

 

This will penalise those looking to add non-archival books to improve grades while still encouaging archival tape usage where looking to conserve book.

 

 

[skypinkblu]

I agree that a book should never be graded 8.5 with tape. I can't see one being graded higher than 4.5 with tape ...which I think was pretty much what OS did before all the changes to conform with CGC.

 

However, we have to realize that there are a WHOLE bunch of people not belonging to this forum, who have been buying these books for the past few years...ESPECIALLY the ones that Sparkle City has been selling recently, with taped centerfolds, taped covers that went for a lot of money.

 

I'm sure there were others doing the same thing, but hat one sticks in my mind.

 

Not sure CGC can change their stance so drastically at this time without considering those buyers. Many of them probably were not aware of the damage non archival tape could do, I know I wasn't.

 

As a matter of fact, other lower grade collectors (including at least one on this forum), encouraged me to use tape to save further damage (spine splits for the most part). I thought at the time "magic" tape, would not stain. I was not having those kinds of books slabbed, I bought them to read...but that doesn't mean others were not performing the same fixes, naively.

 

There is not going to be an easy solution, but I hope they at least inform us of what they are considering.

 

[Tony S]

These shenanigans have been going on for quite some time now. In August 2011, the White Mountain copy of Strange Adventures #7 in CGC Qualified 9.0 sold at auction (ComicLink):

 

 

Two months later, it reappeared on ebay as a CGC Universal 7.5 (with label notation "one piece of tape on interior cover") The seller was Mark Wilson, via his dizneyart handle. I have no idea who was responsible for applying tape to this beautiful pedigree. However, in my opinion, folks who show a clear disregard for the long term health of our community and/or the artifacts we treasure are not deserving of our support.

 

 

 

 

Thanks for sharing, Double Z. (thumbs u

 

I couldn't locate the after image but I was able to identify the original certification number (as blurry as it was).

 

That jagged double tear above the top staple appears to be flayed open like a barbecued lobster tail.

 

Apparently it's now sealed up with tape to achieve a certified blue. Talk about surgical precision from inside the cover ala the Wilson Manipulation Model.

 

Anyway, here's my lame attempt at graphical highlighting with regard to the discontinuity in question, in addition are verification results of original and subsequent certification numbers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm surprised this book got a Q grade to start with. The tear should have been factored into the grade, and if the book is otherwise a 9.0, it should have been docked to a 7.0 at best. After tape is added the book still has the tears, just now with the added onus of tape. This goes to the real problem of CGC's attitude towards tape repair. It's not the color of the label, but that by their standards tape actually seems to improve the grade when added. This is especially troubling when the book gets better than a 6.0.

 

I have a GA book that looks like a 5.0 +, but has tape at the interior staples, and was graded a 4.0 Universal several years ago by CGC ( since cracked out). Assuming the cover would be loose or detached without the tape, the book would probably grade no better than a 2.5/3.0 with no tape added. This grade bump is questionable enough, but at least it's graded lower than it would have been without tape, and still in the lower grade range. Books retaining a 7.0 and up grade with tape used to hold the cover on is crazy.

 

 

One could argue that it's not just CGC's standards that are the problem. Equally problematic is that the market (therefor collectors) pay so little for green label books with minor defects. If the Green Label books weren't selling for way low prices, no one would be cracking them out to add a bit of tape...

[1koko]

I agree that a book should never be graded 8.5 with tape. I can't see one being graded higher than 4.5 with tape ...which I think was pretty much what OS did before all the changes to conform with CGC.

 

However, we have to realize that there are a WHOLE bunch of people not belonging to this forum, who have been buying these books for the past few years...ESPECIALLY the once that Sparkle City has been selling recently, with taped centerfolds, taped covers that went for a lot of money.

 

I'm sure there were others doing the same thing, but hat one sticks in my mind.

 

Not sure CGC can change their stance so drastically at this time without considering those buyers. Many of them probably were not aware of the damage non archival tape could do, I know I wasn't.

 

As a matter of fact, other lower grade collectors (including at least one on this forum), encouraged me to use tape to save further damage (spine splits for the most part). I thought at the time "magic" tape, would not stain. I was not having those kinds of books slabbed, I bought them to read...but that doesn't mean others were not performing the same fixes, naively.

 

There is not going to be an easy solution, but I hope they at least inform us of what they are considering.

 

 

Existing books are always a problenm where it comes to changes in policy.

 

The "point in time" grading notice on back of the label allows for a change but key question is how market confidence is affected by the change. To determine this we need to see how the market reacts to tape notes on universal labels - generally they are already marked down compared to comparatively graded books. With a change in policy we can expect the price differentiation to be markedly larger. Without the change will the price differentiation increase anyway

 

 

 

 

 

[fantastic_four]

One could argue that it's not just CGC's standards that are the problem. Equally problematic is that the market (therefor collectors) pay so little for green label books with minor defects. If the Green Label books weren't selling for way low prices, no one would be cracking them out to add a bit of tape...

 

Blame CGC for that, ENTIRELY. The purple label is problematic, but the green label is absolutely insane. They should have never implemented it and can't get rid of it fast enough. Green-labels aren't just a problem--they're almost completely useless and don't even provide the core CGC service of a realistic grade. Nobody knows how to value them because the entire idea is that CGC isn't counting some defect in the grade. When it comes time to sell, people have to put a value on it and have to determine that grade themselves that CGC never realistically assigned, and the market generally doesn't know how to factor a weird defect into overall grade very well. CGC's opinion on a bizarre defect is probably more needed on green label books than at any other time, yet that's the one instance that they don't assign a grade that matches the reality of the book! If only CGC had provided them with a grade instead of ignoring it with that green label, people might know what to make of them. I get what they were thinking with the green label, but it's an abomination. Worse than the purple label times ten. No redeeming value at all. Can't believe they haven't gotten rid of it. It's a complete barrier to selling any book because it essentially means the book is ungraded.

[VintageComics]

I agree that a book should never be graded 8.5 with tape. I can't see one being graded higher than 4.5 with tape ...which I think was pretty much what OS did before all the changes to conform with CGC.

 

However, we have to realize that there are a WHOLE bunch of people not belonging to this forum, who have been buying these books for the past few years...ESPECIALLY the once that Sparkle City has been selling recently, with taped centerfolds, taped covers that went for a lot of money.

 

I'm sure there were others doing the same thing, but hat one sticks in my mind.

 

Not sure CGC can change their stance so drastically at this time without considering those buyers. Many of them probably were not aware of the damage non archival tape could do, I know I wasn't.

 

As a matter of fact, other lower grade collectors (including at least one on this forum), encouraged me to use tape to save further damage (spine splits for the most part). I thought at the time "magic" tape, would not stain. I was not having those kinds of books slabbed, I bought them to read...but that doesn't mean others were not performing the same fixes, naively.

 

There is not going to be an easy solution, but I hope they at least inform us of what they are considering.

 

 

While I agree that tape should not be allowed in an 8.5 grade (and I'm not trying to excuse CGC's decision here, I'm merely hypothesizing how this book managed to get an 8.5 with tape) it is probably a very tiny (ie. maybe a sliver) of tape, strategically placed on this particular book to get the bump.

 

One could argue that it's not just CGC's standards that are the problem. Equally problematic is that the market (therefor collectors) pay so little for green label books with minor defects. If the Green Label books weren't selling for way low prices, no one would be cracking them out to add a bit of tape...

 

I've been saying that for years and expounding on it.

 

Lack of knowledge or understanding of what a book actually is as it sits inside the holder creates this price disparity. Dropping books into various coloured labels helps quickly identify certain defects or characteristics about the book allowing people to avoid things they are not looking for with a single glance, but does little to actually let people know what is going on with the books in detail, and more so doesn't really give them the need or desire to know or look into it any further. It's not CGC's job to educate people but I do think that a side effect of the different coloured labels is that people know less, rather than more about the grading process simply because by default they ignore anything that is not in a blue label.

 

 

 

[ComicConnoisseur]

This post is interesting and also disheartening to collectors. This post has gotten has also gotten so long it is hard to follow and read it all. I saw ZAID post that CGC is aware of the issue and asking for seller to send books back for review (good luck with that). Any news/word/update officially from CGC???

Same with me I have`t read this thread in weeks,so what`s the update?

[joeypost]

Not sure if a week is long enough for them to come to a conclusion on any new policy they might put in place. Regarding an issue as important as this, I would want a well thought out answer compared to throwing something out for the sake of expediency.

[thunsicker]

Not sure if a week is long enough for them to come to a conclusion on any new policy they might put in place. Regarding an issue as important as this, I would want a well thought out answer compared to throwing something out for the sake of expediency.

 

This from the guy whose Location is "impatiently waiting".

[drbanner]

Not sure if a week is long enough for them to come to a conclusion on any new policy they might put in place. Regarding an issue as important as this, I would want a well thought out answer compared to throwing something out for the sake of expediency.

It's actually been a month since Paul commented in this thread that a change in their ridiculous policy on tape was forthcoming:

 

"3) On the issue of the tape "loop-hole" - CGC has taken your suggestions very seriously. They have been very helpful and as a result we are in the process of re-evaluating our tape policy and plan to modify our current practice as necessary to address the situation. Your input has been valuable and we thank you. Anyone who has not voiced their opinion can still do so and we would welcome your thoughts. Please look for a separate announcement in the near future. Books that are currently in holders with tape would be considered “Grandfathered in”."

 

I weep for the books that have been defiled in the interim while CGC slow-plays this...c'mon Paul, what's the deal here?

[joeypost]

Not sure if a week is long enough for them to come to a conclusion on any new policy they might put in place. Regarding an issue as important as this, I would want a well thought out answer compared to throwing something out for the sake of expediency.

It's actually been a month since Paul commented in this thread that a change in their ridiculous policy on tape was forthcoming:

 

"3) On the issue of the tape "loop-hole" - CGC has taken your suggestions very seriously. They have been very helpful and as a result we are in the process of re-evaluating our tape policy and plan to modify our current practice as necessary to address the situation. Your input has been valuable and we thank you. Anyone who has not voiced their opinion can still do so and we would welcome your thoughts. Please look for a separate announcement in the near future. Books that are currently in holders with tape would be considered “Grandfathered in”."

 

I weep for the books that have been defiled in the interim while CGC slow-plays this...c'mon Paul, what's the deal here?

 

That's true, but how long has it been since CGC has had the books in hand to make the decision on?

[drbanner]

Not sure if a week is long enough for them to come to a conclusion on any new policy they might put in place. Regarding an issue as important as this, I would want a well thought out answer compared to throwing something out for the sake of expediency.

It's actually been a month since Paul commented in this thread that a change in their ridiculous policy on tape was forthcoming:

 

"3) On the issue of the tape "loop-hole" - CGC has taken your suggestions very seriously. They have been very helpful and as a result we are in the process of re-evaluating our tape policy and plan to modify our current practice as necessary to address the situation. Your input has been valuable and we thank you. Anyone who has not voiced their opinion can still do so and we would welcome your thoughts. Please look for a separate announcement in the near future. Books that are currently in holders with tape would be considered “Grandfathered in”."

 

I weep for the books that have been defiled in the interim while CGC slow-plays this...c'mon Paul, what's the deal here?

 

That's true, but how long has it been since CGC has had the books in hand to make the decision on?

 

Oh, you meant the face-job issue, I was only thinking of the tape issue which is separate in and of itself (although it appears the Wilson syndicate uses booth loop-holes to the best of their ability as illustrated in this thread).

[Timmay]

From the CGC feedback page

 

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Mark Wilson

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