Comic Book Spine Realignment Therapy, turn your 8.5's into 9.2's!

[joecgcmaniac]

If CGC had hammered bad mis-wraps from day one, then there is no way these types of methods would be used. But since they decided (rather foolishly) not to hammer mis-wraps, the door was opened, and the shysters found a loop hole to manipulate.

[seanfingh]

The true source of the problem seems to be the grading anomalies that abound with comics. And I don't for a minute blame CGC... I believe they, or any reasonable corporation, does its best to meet the public demands and standards. And if those public demands are not based in logic, eventually the system will have problems.

 

I'm also learning why the collectibles in my shop sell so fast! There are so many examples out there, that it's obviously standard, but I don't see how a "2-cent" Captain America like that gets a 9.6. In my shop it's an 8.0, simply for the massive mis-wrap alone. And I don't care about intent... it doesn't matter to me if it was pressed that way, or if it was sealed in a vault since the day it left the printer's.

 

A 9.6 is declaring that there is only 4/10ths of a point difference between that and absolute perfection. Yet clearly, a rational person can visualize a number of degrees of quality inbetween that 9.6 and a 10.0.

 

The original Avengers #1 that started this thread is a 7.0 in my shop, but I'll allow that it might be a 7.5 from others in the marketplace. After it was "ratcheted", regardless of whether I knew it was "manufactured" or not... the lack of attractiveness alone would knock it to a 6.0 (6.5 tops).

 

Baseball cards that are off-center take a grading hit, even if that's exactly how they were printed. Even in comics, most people wouldn't pay a premium for a near-perfect comic that had a bad double-image or a production ink-smear across it, and I'm guessing the grade would take a hit as well (or should). So why grade even an original un-"manufactured" production-flaw like a bad mis-wrap as a NM-MT, when other copies without such a miswrap abound?

 

No grading anomalies, no incentive to manufacture new spines. Problem (this one anyway) solved.

 

I have enjoyed sending Tim's 8.0 miswraps to CGC for years.

[joecgcmaniac]

[Bookery]

I have enjoyed sending Tim's 8.0 miswraps to CGC for years.

 

That new van cost beaucoup bucks... I'm demanding my kickbacks now!

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

[COI]

If CGC had hammered bad mis-wraps from day one, then there is no way these types of methods would be used. But since they decided (rather foolishly) not to hammer mis-wraps, the door was opened, and the shysters found a loop hole to manipulate.

 

Let me play devil's advocate here...

 

From day one, CGC hammers for miswraps. So books that would have otherwise been 9.4s and 9.6s get 9.0s, 8.5s, and 8.0s (SA and BA). Because of the sheer number of miswrapped books in existence, this would mean that 9.4s and 9.6s would be genuinely scarce, 9.8s almost mythical, and higher numbers of 9.0, 8.5 and 8.0 books populating the census.

 

I would argue that in this scenario, there would still be plenty of incentive to mess around. 9.4s-9.8s, because of their illusiveness (being both structurally sound and having perfect QP) would be astronomically expensive. 8.0s, 8.5s and 9.0s might be more along the lines of what are being paid for 9.2s to 9.6s now. The entire thing would just be scaled downwards, and there would be a difference in multiples between 8.0s, 8.5s and 9.0s. So there would be plenty of incentive to try to get 7.5s to 8.5, 8.0s to 9.0s, etc..., just as there is incentive to toy around with lower and mid-grade GA books.

 

What we consider high grade, desirable, etc... is largely a function of census numbers, and what we perceive to be available.

[seanfingh]

I have enjoyed sending Tim's 8.0 miswraps to CGC for years.

 

That new van cost beaucoup bucks... I'm demanding my kickbacks now!

 

 

I was in on Saturday! I can't owe again already.

[the blob]

I would argue that in this scenario, there would still be plenty of incentive to mess around. 9.4s-9.8s, because of their illusiveness (being both structurally sound and having perfect QP) would be astronomically expensive. 8.0s, 8.5s and 9.0s might be more along the lines of what are being paid for 9.2s to 9.6s now. The entire thing would just be scaled downwards, and there would be a difference in multiples between 8.0s, 8.5s and 9.0s. So there would be plenty of incentive to try to get 7.5s to 8.5, 8.0s to 9.0s, etc..., just as there is incentive to toy around with lower and mid-grade GA books.

------------------------------------------

 

Sure, but you're really only talking about high demand expensive books with small #s of copies in the 7.0+ grades. there are plenty of wolverine mini #1s to go around, miswrapped or not.

 

Also, before CGC, many dealers downgraded for bad miswraps, inked tops, bindery tears and all sorts of stuff CGC doesn't care much about. My local shop was of the view that nothing with a [hand] inked top with any sort of bleed (which is really hard to avoid) could really be better than a fine. (not talking about the mechanical inking that is on like every 80s book) a seriously miswrapped but otherwise pristine book was not going to be better than a VF, etc. and I found that dealers at shows around here viewed things similarly. (and on other stuff he was more lenient than cgc, of course)

[lizards2]

what a coincidence, they all live in Washington

Finally, take some of the heat off Oregon...,

[lizards2]

It's a Wilson conspiracy. Hunt down the Wilsons!

 

 

I have that set!

[comeaux]

If CGC had hammered bad mis-wraps from day one, then there is no way these types of methods would be used. But since they decided (rather foolishly) not to hammer mis-wraps, the door was opened, and the shysters found a loop hole to manipulate.

 

Let me play devil's advocate here...

 

From day one, CGC hammers for miswraps. So books that would have otherwise been 9.4s and 9.6s get 9.0s, 8.5s, and 8.0s (SA and BA). Because of the sheer number of miswrapped books in existence, this would mean that 9.4s and 9.6s would be genuinely scarce, 9.8s almost mythical, and higher numbers of 9.0, 8.5 and 8.0 books populating the census.

 

I would argue that in this scenario, there would still be plenty of incentive to mess around. 9.4s-9.8s, because of their illusiveness (being both structurally sound and having perfect QP) would be astronomically expensive. 8.0s, 8.5s and 9.0s might be more along the lines of what are being paid for 9.2s to 9.6s now. The entire thing would just be scaled downwards, and there would be a difference in multiples between 8.0s, 8.5s and 9.0s. So there would be plenty of incentive to try to get 7.5s to 8.5, 8.0s to 9.0s, etc..., just as there is incentive to toy around with lower and mid-grade GA books.

 

What we consider high grade, desirable, etc... is largely a function of census numbers, and what we perceive to be available.

 

Excellent observations ! (thumbs u

[porky]

If CGC had hammered bad mis-wraps from day one, then there is no way these types of methods would be used. But since they decided (rather foolishly) not to hammer mis-wraps, the door was opened, and the shysters found a loop hole to manipulate.

 

 

There's nothing wrong with miswraps and miscuts. You might not like them and/or think they're ugly but that alone is no reason to deduct points from anything but the highest of high grades. The "problems" with books that weren't perfectly centered are obvious and it just makes more sense to grade the *condition* of the book.

[lizards2]

The comics community has kept pressing in check and closely guarded,

Can you please stop posting this drivel? Pressing hasn't been "in check" or "closely guarded" for at least a decade.

 

 

while not so with the sportscard collectors as information about pressing comics for them has gone viral,so expect much more amateur or badly pressed comics in the future.

And once they discover that CGC will hammer the grade on a botched pressing job, they'll wise up and start sending their books to CFP or CIS.

I've cracked out several bad pressing jobs, and didn't see any hammering of the grade...., and now we have much more evidence of that. I'll bet you the pressing crowd can tell you whether a book has been pressed or not, but they're not about to tell you.

[seanfingh]

If CGC had hammered bad mis-wraps from day one, then there is no way these types of methods would be used. But since they decided (rather foolishly) not to hammer mis-wraps, the door was opened, and the shysters found a loop hole to manipulate.

 

 

There's nothing wrong with miswraps and miscuts. You might not like them and/or think they're ugly but that alone is no reason to deduct points from anything but the highest of high grades. The "problems" with books that weren't perfectly centered are obvious and it just makes more sense to grade the *condition* of the book.

 

That was not the standard for the entire time I was involved with comic books before 2000. Miswraps and miscuts were typically factored into the grading in Indiana in the 80's and 90s. I wasn't there but my understanding is that the same was true everywhere.

[joeypost]

If CGC had hammered bad mis-wraps from day one, then there is no way these types of methods would be used. But since they decided (rather foolishly) not to hammer mis-wraps, the door was opened, and the shysters found a loop hole to manipulate.

 

The Avengers #1 does not have a mis-wrap. It had an intentional spine roll added to increase the visual appeal of the front cover. The book was shifted. In no way is it a mis-wrap.

[Bookery]

If CGC had hammered bad mis-wraps from day one, then there is no way these types of methods would be used. But since they decided (rather foolishly) not to hammer mis-wraps, the door was opened, and the shysters found a loop hole to manipulate.

 

Let me play devil's advocate here...

 

From day one, CGC hammers for miswraps. So books that would have otherwise been 9.4s and 9.6s get 9.0s, 8.5s, and 8.0s (SA and BA). Because of the sheer number of miswrapped books in existence, this would mean that 9.4s and 9.6s would be genuinely scarce, 9.8s almost mythical, and higher numbers of 9.0, 8.5 and 8.0 books populating the census.

 

I would argue that in this scenario, there would still be plenty of incentive to mess around. 9.4s-9.8s, because of their illusiveness (being both structurally sound and having perfect QP) would be astronomically expensive. 8.0s, 8.5s and 9.0s might be more along the lines of what are being paid for 9.2s to 9.6s now. The entire thing would just be scaled downwards, and there would be a difference in multiples between 8.0s, 8.5s and 9.0s. So there would be plenty of incentive to try to get 7.5s to 8.5, 8.0s to 9.0s, etc..., just as there is incentive to toy around with lower and mid-grade GA books.

 

What we consider high grade, desirable, etc... is largely a function of census numbers, and what we perceive to be available.

 

Excellent observations ! (thumbs u

 

While his conclusions are probably sound, I'm not sure how it relates to this issue, however. It isn't that there won't always be incentives to toy around... but THIS incentive... the one the thread concerns... would likely go away. The point is that if bad miswraps (meaning egregious like these) were to take a hit in grade from where they started (without the miswrap)... they would likely go DOWN in grade, regardless if that grade was a 9.2 or an 8.0 to begin with. After about the 3rd one of these submitted, it's a pretty good bet the "ratcheter" would quit ratcheting.

 

Nothing will ever get rid of all of the potential problems in a hobby... but I'm guessing over half the current problems can be attributed to the eccentric grading habits that are often unique to this particular hobby.

 

[Bosco685]

If CGC had hammered bad mis-wraps from day one, then there is no way these types of methods would be used. But since they decided (rather foolishly) not to hammer mis-wraps, the door was opened, and the shysters found a loop hole to manipulate.

 

The Avengers #1 does not have a mis-wrap. It had an intentional spine roll added to increase the visual appeal of the front cover. The book was shifted. In no way is it a mis-wrap.

 

And with this thread, a new term was added to my comic book language.

 

Reverse Spine Roll

 

[mrmyst]

If CGC had hammered bad mis-wraps from day one, then there is no way these types of methods would be used. But since they decided (rather foolishly) not to hammer mis-wraps, the door was opened, and the shysters found a loop hole to manipulate.

 

The Avengers #1 does not have a mis-wrap. It had an intentional spine roll added to increase the visual appeal of the front cover. The book was shifted. In no way is it a mis-wrap.

It just looks like one.

[mschmidt]

The comics community has kept pressing in check and closely guarded,

Can you please stop posting this drivel? Pressing hasn't been "in check" or "closely guarded" for at least a decade.

 

 

while not so with the sportscard collectors as information about pressing comics for them has gone viral,so expect much more amateur or badly pressed comics in the future.

And once they discover that CGC will hammer the grade on a botched pressing job, they'll wise up and start sending their books to CFP or CIS.

I've cracked out several bad pressing jobs, and didn't see any hammering of the grade...., and now we have much more evidence of that. I'll bet you the pressing crowd can tell you whether a book has been pressed or not, but they're not about to tell you.

 

I own a couple of modern books that were pressed poorly by the previous owner - at a glance they look like 9.4 and above, but they were sitting in 8.5 slabs when I bought them. It's fairly obvious from looking at them that somebody had the press turned up too high (the back has a slight wave/ripple through it).

 

Here's an example - the dirt on the back is from the scanner ... it's not on the book.

 

 

[Davenport]

This manipulation needs to have a name so we can discuss it properly...

From henceforth, I christen thee... "Ratcheting"

Named so due to the movement of the cover around the spine, and to the fact that anyone who does this is a complete tool.

 

In it's honor, I offer a meme...

 

 

I vote for "Spine Smear" someone offered up early on. (thumbs u

Just sounds like it belongs in Overstreet. Right in there with "spine split" and "spine roll".

(plus I can't say "spine smear" without laughing, like spines made of Play Doh )