Comic Book Spine Realignment Therapy, turn your 8.5's into 9.2's!

[Park]

 

Stain?

 

This book in particular went from a 6.5 (Stain bottom back cover) to a 7.0 (with no mention of a stain).

 

[ChasingKingKirby]

A poster pointed out my Matt Wilson post.

 

I was wrong in stating that the book I was shown had work done by Matt Wilson. Steve told me last night that the work on the book dealers were shown to determine what restoration was done was worked on by Mark Wilson. He stated that Mark no longer does work for anyone else. Again, the work done on the book I was shown was very very good.

 

While Mark has posted in this thread he hasn't answered the question of whether or not he has any personal/business relationship with this particular seller.

 

 

From what I can find on eBay, the search function and the Google:

 

Mark Wilson (eBay: dizneyart, pgcmint.com)

- dealer and restorer(?)

- is a board member (PGCMint) and stated that he has no involvement

 

Matt Wilson (fantasymasterpieces.com)

- restorer

- Mark's brother

 

Thomas Wilson (eBay: collectors_comics)

- dealer and restorer(?)

- relationship?

 

Jesse Wilson (eBay: wxproduction, wxproduction.com)

- dealer and restorer(?)

- Mark's or Matt's son

- likes to use tape: LINK1, LINK2

- currently has this book listed on eBay

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Avengers-1-CGC-7-0-STUNNING-Hulk-Iron-Man-Thor-Marvel-1963-KEY-/190809428113

 

 

 

The plot thickens sickens

 

Wow, how many of these Franken-books are there? Methinks CGC haseth a problem here

 

This is shocking

 

Hi all,

This book in particular went from a 6.5 (Stain bottom back cover) to a 7.0 (with no mention of a stain). It is really helpful to us when concerns are pointed out as in many ways this is a team effort. But be cautious when you put your faith entirely in scans as they do not always tell the entire story. Be assured we are still working on this, but please let's hold off on the torches and pitchforks.

Thanks

 

Paul,

 

Was the spine shifted when it was a 6.5 as it is now? That's a pretty serious back spine roll that Matt pointed out was fairly rare.

 

 

[ChasingKingKirby]

MAN! what a great thread to read...also it reminds me of how much a rookie I am in this game..

 

You and me both. Though I would have been pretty well insulated from getting burned on these types of books. I hate miswraps...

[porky]

This manipulation needs to have a name so we can discuss it properly...

From henceforth, I christen thee... "Ratcheting"

Named so due to the movement of the cover around the spine, and to the fact that anyone who does this is a complete tool.

 

In it's honor, I offer a meme...

 

 

 

Urban Dictionary would agree. Ratcheting is, indeed, ratchet.

[Murphman13]

A poster pointed out my Matt Wilson post.

 

I was wrong in stating that the book I was shown had work done by Matt Wilson. Steve told me last night that the work on the book dealers were shown to determine what restoration was done was worked on by Mark Wilson. He stated that Mark no longer does work for anyone else. Again, the work done on the book I was shown was very very good.

 

While Mark has posted in this thread he hasn't answered the question of whether or not he has any personal/business relationship with this particular seller.

 

 

From what I can find on eBay, the search function and the Google:

 

Mark Wilson (eBay: dizneyart, pgcmint.com)

- dealer and restorer(?)

- is a board member (PGCMint) and stated that he has no involvement

 

Matt Wilson (fantasymasterpieces.com)

- restorer

- Mark's brother

 

Thomas Wilson (eBay: collectors_comics)

- dealer and restorer(?)

- relationship?

 

Jesse Wilson (eBay: wxproduction, wxproduction.com)

- dealer and restorer(?)

- Mark's or Matt's son

- likes to use tape: LINK1, LINK2

- currently has this book listed on eBay

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Avengers-1-CGC-7-0-STUNNING-Hulk-Iron-Man-Thor-Marvel-1963-KEY-/190809428113

 

 

 

The plot thickens sickens

 

Wow, how many of these Franken-books are there? Methinks CGC haseth a problem here

 

This is shocking

 

Hi all,

This book in particular went from a 6.5 (Stain bottom back cover) to a 7.0 (with no mention of a stain). It is really helpful to us when concerns are pointed out as in many ways this is a team effort. But be cautious when you put your faith entirely in scans as they do not always tell the entire story. Be assured we are still working on this, but please let's hold off on the torches and pitchforks.

Thanks

 

 

Stain?

 

Paul, was the stain easy to see on the 6.5? If you are sure it was the same book before are you considering that the stain was removed (thus restoration) but still got the blue label? Thus throwing gasoline on this already huge firestorm that is brewing?

[Park]

Not just threads here , everywhere , we understand that , don't need to read anything..Something needs to be done...

 

CGC starts hammering for ugly front to back miswraps and this stops.

 

Simplistic.

 

I had a couple of synapses fire this morning.

 

 

 

Then you had at least one to spare after that brainwave.

 

I'll be on the curb counting cars for the rest of the day if you need me.

[comeaux]

Hi all,

It is really helpful to us when concerns are pointed out as in many ways this is a team effort. But be cautious when you put your faith entirely in scans as they do not always tell the entire story. Be assured we are still working on this, but please let's hold off on the torches and pitchforks.Thanks

 

I agree ... (thumbs u

[COI]

I have never pressed a book, never seen a book being pressed, and if I've ever owned a pressed book, it was in a slab and I didn't know it was pressed. So I have zero experience with pressed books, and as such, I have to take MCMiles at his word that proper pressing is virtually undetectable by CGC, or at best, is too difficult to reliably detect. This, combined with the fact that pressing has been rampant for several years now means the ship has sailed on the idea of labeling pressed books.

 

 

I never quite got why, if someone doesn't think pressing IS restoration, they would care if it's noted on the label. Here is a perfect opportunity, CGC owns a pressing company. NOTE the work done on the label. Maybe some people will want those books even more :shrug:

 

Two things:

 

1) CGC benefits greatly from pressing. That's not conspiratorial, it's a logical deduction based on the business they're in, and the acquisition of Classics makes this undeniably obvious. In terms of vintage comics, there is a large but ultimately finite number of books out there to grade, and re-submission incentives and potential = more revenue streams, whether it's pressing, signature series, straight resubs, or whatever other reasons there are to grade a single book multiple times.

 

Given the above, there are a limited number of incentives CGC can offer to get people to resub vintage, pricey material on a regular basis. Really, there's only one: the possibility of a grade bump. For this reason, it seems logical to me that even if CGC could detect pressing 100% of the time, they would never label it, as doing so would diminish the primary incentive of a grade bump.

 

2) Why would a presser care if pressing was on the label? Because money. The notation on the label undermines the grade bump. In a label-centric hobby like slab collecting, words and numbers on a slab change the very thing entombed in its plastic. Just look at OW vs W pages, or the way in which many buyers respond to PLODs; words and numbers are signifiers of value.

 

Even in a hobby where everyone accepted pressing, the word PRESSED creates another category of books, akin to what most people would call a manufactured collectible. And manufactured collectibles are never as desirable as authentic collectibles. No one is going to pay money to have their authentic collectible turned into a manufactured collectible, irrespective of the higher number on the label. The beauty of proper pressing (for the presser and CGC) is that its undetectable nature circumvents this issue entirely.

 

This, I suspect, is the real problem with these badly pressed frankenbooks. They are offensive to both pro and anti-pressers, not just because they're ugly, but because they're a visual reminder of the game. They scream MANUFACTURED COLLECTIBLE.

 

 

 

 

[plitch]

Paul,

 

Was the spine shifted when it was a 6.5 as it is now? That's a pretty serious back spine roll that Matt pointed out was fairly rare.

 

Sorry, no help. No mention of spine roll on either.

 

Paul, was the stain easy to see on the 6.5? If you are sure it was the same book before are you considering that the stain was removed (thus restoration) but still got the blue label? Thus throwing gasoline on this already huge firestorm that is brewing?

 

Don't know what kind of stain it was. Could have been removed with Wonder Bread or a kneaded eraser - not restoration.

[seanfingh]

From what I can find on eBay, the search function and the Google:

 

Mark Wilson (eBay: dizneyart, pgcmint.com)

- dealer and restorer(?)

- is a board member (PGCMint) and stated that he has no involvement

 

I’m not accusing this seller of anything at all as I recently purchased this Captain America #107 from him via Ebay seller “dizneyart”

 

I’m putting together a run of Captain America #100 to #200 and trying to collect 9.4 to 9.8 (White Pages)

 

Although I have a substantial amount of books in this run and I went through them last night, the only one that I came across with this slightly anomalous wrap was the one I recently purchased from dizneyart.

 

As I stated I am in no way accusing him of doctoring this book but it does have a slight semblance of the other books being questioned.

I would be willing to send it to CGC for review if they think it’s something they want to look into.

 

Way to go with regards to offering up your book!

 

 

I hope your book is not one of the victims. But that is quite the miswrap.

 

 

 

Given the size of the mis-wrap and the lack of corresponding reverse roll I don't know if this one fits the profile.

 

Not every Marvel 2 cent variant is a face job, obviously. The fanned pages is far more of a tell than the front to back miswrap. We all have tons of 2 cent variants from 1966-1968

 

Example of a 2 cent variant with miswrap and no fanned pages as an exemplar. Sorry about the sig, sig haters.

 

http://www.myslabbedcomics.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=3655&GSub=632

[Murphman13]

Paul,

 

Was the spine shifted when it was a 6.5 as it is now? That's a pretty serious back spine roll that Matt pointed out was fairly rare.

 

Sorry, no help. No mention of spine roll on either.

 

Paul, was the stain easy to see on the 6.5? If you are sure it was the same book before are you considering that the stain was removed (thus restoration) but still got the blue label? Thus throwing gasoline on this already huge firestorm that is brewing?

 

Don't know what kind of stain it was. Could have been removed with Wonder Bread or a kneaded eraser - not restoration.

 

Good point. Thanks for responding.

[Mark Zaid]

Check this one out.

 

Interesting as well is that the seller proclaimed in big letters that the comic was "unrestored". And he was being very bluntly honest about that point. It had not been restored. It had been deliberately mutilated.

 

 

Sold for $300 less than the last 5.0 copy a year ago, but again, he probably made a good profit from an upgrade.

And I thought pressing wasn't restoration :shrug:

 

Not sure what your point is. My point is that the guy is bad for the market. He's creating butt-ugly books that sell for significantly less than FMV, thereby bringing down the value of all other copies to anyone that's just looking at GPA history to determine value of that particular issue.

 

If there's a concern about GPA data or how collectors interpret that data - I don't see how that's CGC's concern other than the fact that the market is too tuned in to the numbers on the slabs, that's not new.

CGC shouldn't be concerned about the "market", they should just grade accurately and consistently. That includes reducing the grade when damage arises from an allowable process AND identifying damage that may be less obvious as a result of manipulation.

 

I didn't say it should be CGC's concern, but collector's should be concerned. Of course CGC should only be concerned with grading accurately and consistently.

 

Obviously grading accurately and consistently is a significant concern of CGC, but so are issues that impact the community in general. It is CGC's community as well and the company is, whether it originally intended for this or not, implementing practices and policies that are influencing and shaping what is or is not accepted.

 

That said, certainly anyone can do what they want to their own books, whether any of us like it or not, but if it involves CGC in some manner it becomes of interest to the company.

 

My own view is that this particular issue is really about the grading, and policies surrounding CGC's interpretation of any existing "defects" of a book, rather than whether that book was pressed or not or how it came to be in the condition it was when graded.

[thunsicker]

Check this one out.

 

Interesting as well is that the seller proclaimed in big letters that the comic was "unrestored". And he was being very bluntly honest about that point. It had not been restored. It had been deliberately mutilated.

 

 

Sold for $300 less than the last 5.0 copy a year ago, but again, he probably made a good profit from an upgrade.

And I thought pressing wasn't restoration :shrug:

 

Not sure what your point is. My point is that the guy is bad for the market. He's creating butt-ugly books that sell for significantly less than FMV, thereby bringing down the value of all other copies to anyone that's just looking at GPA history to determine value of that particular issue.

 

If there's a concern about GPA data or how collectors interpret that data - I don't see how that's CGC's concern other than the fact that the market is too tuned in to the numbers on the slabs, that's not new.

CGC shouldn't be concerned about the "market", they should just grade accurately and consistently. That includes reducing the grade when damage arises from an allowable process AND identifying damage that may be less obvious as a result of manipulation.

 

I didn't say it should be CGC's concern, but collector's should be concerned. Of course CGC should only be concerned with grading accurately and consistently.

 

Obviously grading accurately and consistently is a significant concern of CGC, but so are issues that impact the community in general. It is CGC's community as well and the company is, whether it originally intended for this or not, implementing practices and policies that are influencing and shaping what is or is not accepted.

 

That said, certainly anyone can do what they want to their own books, whether any of us like it or not, but if it involves CGC in some manner it becomes of interest to the company.

 

My own view is that this particular issue is really about the grading, and policies surrounding CGC's interpretation of any existing "defects" of a book, rather than whether that book was pressed or not or how it came to be in the condition it was when graded.

 

Isn't the simple solution to grade any comic with fanned pages the same as if it had spine roll? Are there examples of fanned pages without spine roll (other than these comics with manufactured spines)?

[mschmidt]

I have never pressed a book, never seen a book being pressed, and if I've ever owned a pressed book, it was in a slab and I didn't know it was pressed. So I have zero experience with pressed books, and as such, I have to take MCMiles at his word that proper pressing is virtually undetectable by CGC, or at best, is too difficult to reliably detect. This, combined with the fact that pressing has been rampant for several years now means the ship has sailed on the idea of labeling pressed books.

 

 

I never quite got why, if someone doesn't think pressing IS restoration, they would care if it's noted on the label. Here is a perfect opportunity, CGC owns a pressing company. NOTE the work done on the label. Maybe some people will want those books even more :shrug:

 

Two things:

 

1) CGC benefits greatly from pressing. That's not conspiratorial, it's a logical deduction based on the business they're in, and the acquisition of Classics makes this undeniably obvious. In terms of vintage comics, there is a large but ultimately finite number of books out there to grade, and re-submission incentives and potential = more revenue streams, whether it's pressing, signature series, straight resubs, or whatever other reasons there are to grade a single book multiple times.

 

Given the above, there are a limited number of incentives CGC can offer to get people to resub vintage, pricey material on a regular basis. Really, there's only one: the possibility of a grade bump. For this reason, it seems logical to me that even if CGC could detect pressing 100% of the time, they would never label it, as doing so would diminish the primary incentive of a grade bump.

 

2) Why would a presser care if pressing was on the label? Because money. The notation on the label undermines the grade bump. In a label-centric hobby like slab collecting, words and numbers on a slab change the very thing entombed in its plastic. Just look at OW vs W pages, or the way in which many buyers respond to PLODs; words and numbers are signifiers of value.

 

Even in a hobby where everyone accepted pressing, the word PRESSED creates another category of books, akin to what most people would call a manufactured collectible. And manufactured collectibles are never as desirable as authentic collectibles. No one is going to pay money to have their authentic collectible turned into a manufactured collectible, irrespective of the higher number on the label. The beauty of proper pressing (for the presser and CGC) is that its undetectable nature circumvents this issue entirely.

 

This, I suspect, is the real problem with these badly pressed frankenbooks. They are offensive to both pro and anti-pressers, not just because they're ugly, but because they're a visual reminder of the game. They scream MANUFACTURED COLLECTIBLE.

 

 

 

 

Great post

[Hibou]

 

Stain?

 

This book in particular went from a 6.5 (Stain bottom back cover) to a 7.0 (with no mention of a stain).

 

Was this book a straight resub to go from a 6.5 to a 7.0 and how was that known?

 

I was under the impression that upon a resub, the certification number is just deleted but no other information is retained to associate it with the newer grade.

 

Was I just being incredibly naive in believing this?

 

:shrug:

[Bosco685]

My own view is that this particular issue is really about the grading, and policies surrounding CGC's interpretation of any existing "defects" of a book, rather than whether that book was pressed or not or how it came to be in the condition it was when graded.

 

Bingo!

 

[BlowUpTheMoon]

Example of a 2 cent variant with miswrap and no fanned pages as an exemplar. Sorry about the sig, sig haters.

 

http://www.myslabbedcomics.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=3655&GSub=632

 

Get a scanner.

[Bookery]

 

The true source of the problem seems to be the grading anomalies that abound with comics. And I don't for a minute blame CGC... I believe they, or any reasonable corporation, does its best to meet the public demands and standards. And if those public demands are not based in logic, eventually the system will have problems.

 

I'm also learning why the collectibles in my shop sell so fast! There are so many examples out there, that it's obviously standard, but I don't see how a "2-cent" Captain America like that gets a 9.6. In my shop it's an 8.0, simply for the massive mis-wrap alone. And I don't care about intent... it doesn't matter to me if it was pressed that way, or if it was sealed in a vault since the day it left the printer's.

 

A 9.6 is declaring that there is only 4/10ths of a point difference between that and absolute perfection. Yet clearly, a rational person can visualize a number of degrees of quality inbetween that 9.6 and a 10.0.

 

The original Avengers #1 that started this thread is a 7.0 in my shop, but I'll allow that it might be a 7.5 from others in the marketplace. After it was "ratcheted", regardless of whether I knew it was "manufactured" or not... the lack of attractiveness alone would knock it to a 6.0 (6.5 tops).

 

Baseball cards that are off-center take a grading hit, even if that's exactly how they were printed. Even in comics, most people wouldn't pay a premium for a near-perfect comic that had a bad double-image or a production ink-smear across it, and I'm guessing the grade would take a hit as well (or should). So why grade even an original un-"manufactured" production-flaw like a bad mis-wrap as a NM-MT, when other copies without such a miswrap abound?

 

No grading anomalies, no incentive to manufacture new spines. Problem (this one anyway) solved.

 

[bluechip]

Not just threads here , everywhere , we understand that , don't need to read anything..Something needs to be done...

 

CGC starts hammering for ugly front to back miswraps and this stops.

 

Simplistic.

 

 

 

Yes.

 

The last thing the hobby needs is to take this situation and use it to increase the degree to which people expect CGC to be mind-readers and to judge defects based on what somebody was thinking when a defect occurred. There is already far too much of that. If somebody wants to obsess over what happened to a miswrapped book or any other type of defect as something they hate because of the thought process involved, they can do that on their own, based on the information. They do not need CGC to give it a "bad" color label with a value disclaimer on the back to empower them to demand to pay less.

 

Nornally, I would argue that it would create a whole other problem suddenly to "hammer" such defects, since it means changing grade criteria leaving many books with the same defects but different grades. But it's better than any of the other alternatives floated.

 

 

 

 

[comicwiz]

I have never pressed a book, never seen a book being pressed, and if I've ever owned a pressed book, it was in a slab and I didn't know it was pressed. So I have zero experience with pressed books, and as such, I have to take MCMiles at his word that proper pressing is virtually undetectable by CGC, or at best, is too difficult to reliably detect. This, combined with the fact that pressing has been rampant for several years now means the ship has sailed on the idea of labeling pressed books.

 

 

I never quite got why, if someone doesn't think pressing IS restoration, they would care if it's noted on the label. Here is a perfect opportunity, CGC owns a pressing company. NOTE the work done on the label. Maybe some people will want those books even more :shrug:

 

Two things:

 

1) CGC benefits greatly from pressing. That's not conspiratorial, it's a logical deduction based on the business they're in, and the acquisition of Classics makes this undeniably obvious. In terms of vintage comics, there is a large but ultimately finite number of books out there to grade, and re-submission incentives and potential = more revenue streams, whether it's pressing, signature series, straight resubs, or whatever other reasons there are to grade a single book multiple times.

 

Given the above, there are a limited number of incentives CGC can offer to get people to resub vintage, pricey material on a regular basis. Really, there's only one: the possibility of a grade bump. For this reason, it seems logical to me that even if CGC could detect pressing 100% of the time, they would never label it, as doing so would diminish the primary incentive of a grade bump.

 

2) Why would a presser care if pressing was on the label? Because money. The notation on the label undermines the grade bump. In a label-centric hobby like slab collecting, words and numbers on a slab change the very thing entombed in its plastic. Just look at OW vs W pages, or the way in which many buyers respond to PLODs; words and numbers are signifiers of value.

 

Even in a hobby where everyone accepted pressing, the word PRESSED creates another category of books, akin to what most people would call a manufactured collectible. And manufactured collectibles are never as desirable as authentic collectibles. No one is going to pay money to have their authentic collectible turned into a manufactured collectible, irrespective of the higher number on the label. The beauty of proper pressing (for the presser and CGC) is that its undetectable nature circumvents this issue entirely.

 

This, I suspect, is the real problem with these badly pressed frankenbooks. They are offensive to both pro and anti-pressers, not just because they're ugly, but because they're a visual reminder of the game. They scream MANUFACTURED COLLECTIBLE.

 

Well said.

 

As an extension of the ideas about why this treatment is viewed in such an offensive manner, it's probably also a reminder of how preferences evolve. Page quality snobbery evolved to quality of production (QP, credit BEYONDER). A more recent example is the way miswraps became the focus of attention when the CVA controversy visited these boards.

 

When the boardie talked about having thoughts of his own in shifting the spine to remove the white from the front cover in this thread, the thought entered into my mind that this MAD fold-out hack work probably evolved from someone's own braniac preferences to eliminate miswraps. Taking the spine shift to migrate spine wear to the rear wrap merely justified the viability of the undertaking.

 

Taking this talk on PQ full-circle, as I''ve already said, I still believe that because of the slavish adherence to the next PQ fashion trend, downgrading still misses the boat on instituting a financial penalty on this work because some people would probably take the fanning pages as a trade-off to have a clean spine, with defects shifted to the back.