FF 3

[FFB]

Do we know for certain that Ewert/Brulato submitted the books?

 

If not, then they certainly have a beauty of a libel case in this thread.

So I should just cower and bite my tongue because of the potential of punitive action?

 

No, but I would expect you perhaps above all people to hold off on accusing someone of grave wrongdoing when you know you don't have all of the facts, or even most of them.

 

I'm not saying you're wrong, either -- I'm just saying that you don't know whether Ewert or Brulato did anything to these books, or whether someone else did and then sold the books through Ewert.

[FFB]

3. Theoretically, Ewert/Brulato might not be the submitters, and might have purchased the FF 3 and 9 from whoever did. But that is not their modus operandi. They're not JP. They don't buy newly slabbed books at full value and then quickly try to flip them. Their business model is identifying an asset that is undergraded or can be "improved" and arbitrage the difference. Ergo, they purchased the books in their previous condition, trimmed and pressed them and then resubbed them, and then sold the FF 3 to Bob and listed the FF 9 on Pedigree.

 

Actually, Jason accepts consignments from people in exchange for 8% of the sales price. He told me at WonderCon that he moves most of his books off of ebay, which probably means quite a few sales to dealers. He doesn't only scour back issue bins for high grade bronze to slab and sell.

 

And it's an FF#10, not an FF#9 that you are talking about.

[shrunkenhead]

Oy vey, in the span of three hours, I read through this entire thread and watched the movie "Primer," in which the film's plot is broken down here:

 

http://neuwanstein.fw.hu/primer_timeline.html

 

I never want to think again.

[tth2]

So I should just cower and bite my tongue because of the potential of punitive action?

 

No, but I would expect you perhaps above all people to hold off on accusing someone of grave wrongdoing when you know you don't have all of the facts, or even most of them.

 

I'm not saying you're wrong, either -- I'm just saying that you don't know whether Ewert or Brulato did anything to these books, or whether someone else did and then sold the books through Ewert.

You're probably right, but subtlety and restraint have generally proven to be ineffective methods for getting one's points across on these boards.

 

The fact is I'm just plain sick and tired of this. Every time I turn around, the issue du jour turns out to be much worse than I could ever have imagined. It's time to just call a spade a spade based on my perception of the facts, publicly and loudly. I've purposely changed the subject lines to the most inflammatory lines I can think of to attract attention and stir some response and debate. My initial posts were done Monday morning US time, and as of early Tuesday morning US time, there has been no response from CGC or from any apologists (except sfilosa) or defenders of Brulato or Ewert. As you say, perhaps silence just means they don't want to deal with the BS. But I will choose to interpret the silence as an admission of guilt. If I'm wrong, I will duly apologize.

[tth2]

Actually, Jason accepts consignments from people in exchange for 8% of the sales price. He told me at WonderCon that he moves most of his books off of ebay, which probably means quite a few sales to dealers.

Let's just say I consider everything he says to be less than gospel truth right now. I know he sells some big ticket stuff outside of eBay. Whether they're books he's taken title to, or just selling on consignment from others, who knows. But how could Jason make money in a consignment model where someone pays Jason 8%, and then Jason has to turn around and pay 8% to consign on Doug's site?

 

And it's an FF#10, not an FF#9 that you are talking about.

Just had "9" in my head for some reason. Can't believe no one's pointed it out until now.

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

I have a question here: why is there a blanket guilt laid at Jason Ewert's AND Tom Brulato's feet? While I am aware that one sells a great deal of items for the other through consignment or what have you, why are the names used so interchangably? Are we sure both are involved in this particular scenario or is it simply guilt by association?

[tth2]

I have a question here: why is there a blanket guilt laid at Jason Ewert's AND Tom Brulato's feet? While I am aware that one sells a great deal of items for the other through consignment or what have you, why are the names used so interchangably? Are we sure both are involved in this particular scenario or is it simply guilt by association?

Bob specifically said he purchased the FF 3 from Ewert/Brulato, mentioning both, so I just kind of ran with it. Kind of how plaintiffs' lawyers sue every party they can think of, and let each named defendant explain why they should NOT be named.

[Red Hook]

Hey, you guys are getting WAY overexcited. Here's your answer from Ewert. I sent him an email.

 

Dated April 2, 2004:

 

Dear ejaenter,

 

Hi Jason, My name is Brad Hamann and I am the CGC board member who noted that the Daredevil 11 CGC 9.6 GreenRiver you had up for sale a few weeks ago, was definitely a resub of a CGC 9.4 that Shin Kao had auctioned off for charity a few months ago. Shin himself offered the opinion that the book might very well have been pressed. I know Shin, trust his eye, so I gave some validity to his theory. The issue of whether dealers resubmit books after having them professionally pressed in order to get a higher grade and thus garner a much higher profit margin, has been debated hotly on the boards for the last couple of weeks. I never contacted personally after the book was withdrawn, because I assumed I was the last person you wanted to hear from at the time. I had apparently, and unintentionally deep-sixed your auction. Someone also suggested I contact you and try to work out a "special price" for the 9.4/9.6, but I felt that would be unethical. Anyway, it has been suggested that I indeed contact you for your take on all the developments. I have basically a couple of questions, that I would appreciate an answer to. 1. If you were offering a slabbed book for sale that you knew had been professionally pressed, and a potential buyer emailed you asking if the book had been pressed, would you supply that information, or would you consider it not the buyers business to ask. 2. More directly, have you ever offered a book for sale that you professionally pressed and then resubmitted to CGC in the hopes of receiving a higher grade. Please be assured, this is NOT personal. It is a hot button issue and your input is important. I would wish other dealers to be forthcoming also. We need to have an open discussion. I feel it is the consumers right to know as much about the item he is putting money down for, whether they think pro pressing is restoration or not. Thanks, Brad

 

 

Thank you,

mrsilverage

[Red Hook]

And here is his reply, dated April 9, 2004.

 

Hi Brad,

 

    thanks for your email.  Sorry for any delay in getting back to you as I just returned from out of town.  I do not view or take part in discussions on the CGC forum and I am not an active member.  On occasion, I have friends who are active members alert me about items for sale on the forum and allow me to use their login account names to respond to the sellers to purchase.    However, I have no interest in viewing or taking part in discussions on any public forum with people who I don't know, can't identify, will never do business with, and with whose information cannot be verified.  If someone wants to email me directly with a question, I will always be more than happy to answer.

    The Daredevil #11 Green River was sold to a customer as a 9.4 who subsequently upgraded the book to a 9.6.  The owner consigned it back to me to sell on Ebay and later gave instructions to end the auction early.  I do not know the book's current whereabouts.  I am unaware what, if anything was improved on the book to allow it to receive the 9.6 grade.  I will pass the question onto the owner and let you know what he says or if he still has the book for sale.

    I have no problem discussing the background or history of a book with someone emailing me if I know the background or history.  This would be in situations where I directly had the book encapsulated myself.  Many books I sell are consigned, and many books I buy are already slabbed.  On these occasions, it would be impossible for me to know if a book has been professionally pressed prior to encapsulation.  Whatever information the owner (when consigned) or prior owner (when bought already slabbed) provides me with on a slabbed book, I have no problem sharing with a potential new buyer.  My recommendation to any potential buyer is to always be as informed as possible and call the CGC with the bar code number to get all the grading notes on the book and find out if the book has been professionally pressed.  In other words, don't rely on the information of the seller to tell you information on a book.  Call the independent, third-party grading and restoration experts at the CGC who graded the book who will give you truthful unbiased information.

    Professionally pressing of comic books is an activity I know exists.  This can be seen on high dollar books which were offered for sale in past Heritage Auctions at a lower grade, only to be offered at new higher grades with scans to show the before and after condition.  I am no fool.  If I saw an otherwise NM copy of Amazing Spiderman #1 with a 1" wave in the book,  I would contact a professional comic book restorer to see if the book could be professionally pressed flat to receive an unrestored, blue CGC label higher grade.  The book value difference might go from $4000.00 to $60,000.00.  However, I do not have the time, inclination, desire to spend additional $, or desire to tie up books for a longer periods of time to get them professionally pressed in order to get a "hopeful" higher grade, with a "hopeful" blue label (untampered with) which could occur a small percentage of the time.  I would rather turn my inventory as quickly as possible by buying it, slabbing it, and selling it - in other words "get it in and get it out".   My only hope is to provide a quality product to someone and deliver it with outstanding service so they will continue to come back for  more.  If  I am able to do this, I will succeed in accomplishing my goal. 

    Let me know if there is anything else you need.

 

thanks,

 

Jason

 

So that should settle it.

 

[drbanner]

guess I'm not completely understanding your hypotethical situation. Is the book definitely trimmed? or only suspected of being trimmed? and who is doing the "suspecting"? And if you brought this to CGC's attention, what would their response have been?

 

Good questions.

 

If I suspected that a book I purchased was trimmed, I would ask CGC to investigate. I use suspected because how could I absolutely know with 100% confidence. I'm not an expert. I rely on CGC to be the expert.

 

I would hope that CGC would investigate but if they don't, I would assume they don't believe the book is trimmed or possible worse, realize this happens more then we know. In either case, I'm suppose to bear the risk of buying CGC books? I don't think so.

 

If you bought the 9.2 FF 10 and now learned it had been trimmed, what would you do with it? It sounds like what you're saying is that you would try to sell it without disclosing that it had been trimmed, is that correct?

 

[drbanner]

The FF (10) came from the same submission, which means it was submitted to CGC by whoever submitted the FF 3. So if Ewert/Brulato want to come on here and explain that it was not they who purchased the 3 and (10) from Heritage, and it was not they who trimmed and pressed the books (or arranged for the books to be trimmed and pressed), they're welcome to do so. But right now, there's certainly enough probable cause to bring them in for questioning.

 

I'd also like to know whether they did the trimming themselves, or used someone else. In a PM, someone suggested Matt Nelson to me, but I have to wonder if it's Chris Friesen's new service. Who else is in better position to slip new undetectable restoration methods by CGC than their former resto detection expert?

 

 

Looks like there were a few other nice books from this submission:

 

FF 2 9.0

FF 11 7.5

X-men 3 9.4

X-men 5 9.6

Spidey 8 9.5

Spidey 129 9.6

Adventure 260 8.5

Showcase 30 9.0 (trimmed)

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

Showcase 30 9.0 (trimmed)

 

[Larryw7]

After reading through this thread, I'm happier than ever than I concentrate on lower grade books that I can afford and not the high dollar slabbed stuff(as much as I drool over it when I see it). There can still be problems in low grade as well-fake back covers attached to expensive books, etc.-but, generally speaking, what you see is what you get. If I thought I had a ton of books with these kinds of problems in my collection, I would probably get out of the hobby. It's pretty demoralizing to see this kind of behavior coming from people that a collector should be able to trust.

[Red Hook]

I for one have not accused anyone directly of anything, but this is a perfect example of "Pass the Buck".

 

No one wants to accept responsibility for what happened here.

 

• The buyer of the books from Heritage?

• The Seller of the Books to the Dealers?

• The Consignors of the Books to the Dealers?

• The Dealers?

• The person who did the trimming?

• CGC?

 

 

The bottom line is, if these incidents don't get examined, then the sucker in the end is the buyer. The loser is the end buyer. The guy out the money is the buyer. The person taken for a ride is the buyer.

 

What's missing in this possible chain of responsibilty is the party that steps ups and says "Enough!". Not to you, not to me, but to the other parties of the chain.

 

He turns to the other members of the chains and says....."Enough finnagling. Let's start from scratch. Let's get ethical here. We are killing the hobby. Enough with f**king the buyer,.......enough with f**king each other! Enough with absolutely mutilating these once beautiful books!"

 

I had to pause when Scott mentioned that CGC always makes good in situations like this. That's an incomplete thought. The statement should have finished off...."when the error is discovered in a timely fashion." I want CGC to get better. I want CGC to tighten up. Hire more staff. It's way overdue. Hire a good PR person for Gawd's sake! I think it's time for CGC to restate their mission in a more aggressive manner. Reassure the buyer not just in words but in actions. Having CGC "correct" the situation in these recent cases is not reassuring.

 

So here is what I think. Assuming these examples are isolated and CGC was taken unawares, I would suggest that.....

 

- CGC immediately halt the acceptance of submission from the party that sent in the books, and any known associates.

 

- Muscle up on the staff. Seriously. It's time. Who watches the Watchdog? We shouldn't even be here. This thread shouldn't even exist.

 

- Hire a part-timer to track previous sales on the web, through Heritage, through ebay, through dealer sites.....if he catches one suspicious sub a day, it will be worth it. CGC may have to rethink their role in all of this. It says to the buyers....we will attempt to protect you even more than we originally promised.

 

It's as if hackers (no pun intended) had invaded a banking system and started siphoning off $$$ from personal accounts (which in a way is what is happening - dishonestly). What does the bank do?

 

Install a stronger firewall.

 

CGC needs a stronger firewall to protect themselves, the honest dealers they work with and the buyers. Whether that firewall takes the form of individuals or a technology or a strategy.....I think it might be time.

[clobberintime]

Well it is good to know all this talk of Ewert's misdeeds has hurt his ability to sell expensive books. Just look at those miserable numbers from those Spideys last night and those 9.8 X-men books last week. Terrible, bottom of the barrel prices. Outside of this forum is anyone paying attention? I guess not - after all, the blue cgc label is all that matters right? Just read the label. I know a lot of people read this stuff without interacting. It would be ridiculous for anyone active in the high grade market not to read this stuff. So I am sure brulato and ewert and douggie are all familiar with this thread. We know Doug is as we have heard from his surrogates - he must be too busy to make any comments himself. same with Ewert I guess. I really don't know what else these guys do besides sell comics now but it is evidently extremely physically taxing and time consuming. This may appear to be a witchhunt, but if i were accused of all this stuff and my livelihood depended on selling comics to people who pay attention to this, I would have a response or denial or something. like OJ said - 110% not guilty! I have done a lot of business with Ewert over the years - not so much in the past year mainly due to these allegations - and I hope all of this can be explained but it does not look good.

[heinlein99]

- Hire a part-timer to track previous sales on the web, through Heritage, through ebay, through dealer sites.....if he catches one suspicious sub a day, it will be worth it.

 

Or better yet, throw a few of the more questionable books up on this forum to be vetted by you guys, without having to pay another employee.

 

This would be done with no i.d. attached to the book, of course. (But, knowing you guys, you would immediately know who the submitter was.)

[shrunkenhead]

After reading through this thread, I'm happier than ever than I concentrate on lower grade books that I can afford and not the high dollar slabbed stuff(as much as I drool over it when I see it). There can still be problems in low grade as well-fake back covers attached to expensive books, etc.-but, generally speaking, what you see is what you get. If I thought I had a ton of books with these kinds of problems in my collection, I would probably get out of the hobby. It's pretty demoralizing to see this kind of behavior coming from people that a collector should be able to trust.

 

This does seem to be the lesson to be learned, does it not? Looks like hobbyists come out on top once again, as speculators get ready to take the pain. Hardly a surprising outcome--it's a very old story. Just amazingly surprising in the way that it's coming forth in this particular case.

[joe_collector]

This does seem to be the lesson to be learned, does it not? Looks like hobbyists come out on top once again, as speculators get ready to take the pain. Hardly a surprising outcome--it's a very old story.

 

I find it amazing that people never seem to learn, and that the same basic pattern repeats itself every decade or so.

 

Here's one thing that every newb should understand: When INVESTMENT and COLLECTIBLE are put in the same sentence, Elvis has already left the building.

 

But instead of buying in 1998 when the SAME books were dirt cheap, they all come running in 2002 when dealers start calling comics an "investment".

[Mr. Zipper]

I find it amazing that people never seem to learn, and that the same basic pattern repeats itself every decade or so.

 

Here's one thing that every newb should understand: When INVESTMENT and COLLECTIBLE are put in the same sentence, Elvis has already left the building.

 

 

The only thing that amazes me here is that this comes as to some people. A handful of people have been screaming about it for several years now, but they were just "conspiracy kooks." The same "conspiracy kooks" were laughed at less than 2 years ago when they claimed that CGC was doing on-site pressing for certain clients. Now, we see that a (former?) CGC employee IS indeed offering pressing services to select clients right down the hall from CGC.

 

Grading, cracking, resto and re-subbing manipulation has already happened in EVERY OTHER HOBBY that has seen exponential price increases due to 3rd party grading/encapsulation. This was done by some of the same players connected to CGC today.

 

Are people so arrogant or naive to think it wouldn't happen in the comic book hobby? Yup, it's a hard pill to swallow, but to the money men, we're no different than all the suckers and marks who collected coins or baseball cards.

 

[Red Hook]

- Hire a part-timer to track previous sales on the web, through Heritage, through ebay, through dealer sites.....if he catches one suspicious sub a day, it will be worth it.

 

Or better yet, throw a few of the more questionable books up on this forum to be vetted by you guys, without having to pay another employee.

 

This would be done with no i.d. attached to the book, of course. (But, knowing you guys, you would immediately know who the submitter was.)

 

Wouldn't work. It would need to be done privately, with the analyst having signed a non-disclosure or confidentiality agreement.