FF 3

[Elvis]

I understand your concern.

 

But let's look at it this way.

 

If I owned stock in a company and was watching the Local News, and they said that there has been an OIL SPILL off the coast by an Exxon ship and:

 

1) I owned Exxon shares

2) Decided to immediately sell those shares before word got out to the National News.

3) Sold to someone who DIDN'T know this was happening

 

AM I A BAD GUY?

 

In the case of a possible trimmed comic books, I would tried to get my money back from the person I purchased the book from or call CGC to get more information (and see if they felt they needed to correct the issue). But ONCE AGAIN, I RELIED on CGC to determine if the book was restored, and if they made a MISTAKE, why should I take the FINANCIAL FALL.

 

Steve,

 

Your post assumes you have "negative" insider information that is about to go public on exxon stock and you are a stock holder. I think most everyone here would pull the trigger in a situation like that. (except maybe Martha Stewart).

 

But this is not an apples to apples comparison. I think this is a little more accurate of a comparison:

 

Lets say you are in charge of Christies auction house, and you learn that your newly aquired, original copy of the Declaration of Independance is a fake. Do you send it out to the auction floor or do you do the responsible thing and announce the bad news?

 

Steve, I dont know you, nor do I claim to understand your motives, but your post is written from a strictly business perspective with no thought to reputation or ethics of this field. Most of the time, you are not dealing with investors, you are dealing with collectors. If you dont have your reputation, what do you have?

 

Elvis

[DKB]

BTW, I'm in agreement with you that PEDIGREE BOOKS are the way to go. Plus, while everyone talks about this being a HG issue, I seriously doubt that you will see much trimming done on true 9.2 / 9.4 hoping for 9.4 / 9.6's. Just too much financial risk if the book is caught.

 

Not so fast Steve......right now I'm sitting on scans of two PEDIGREE books that exhibit VERY POSSIBLY the same hack type job as displayed earlier in this thread. In fact, go look at the two copies of DD 2 in the CGC galleries right now and tell me they aren't the same book.

 

How about I say "they don't look like the same book to me" just to get you to post the photoshopic evidence.

[Mr. Zipper]

Back to the FF #10, I still can not see why ANYONE would TRIM the bottom? From the blown up Heritage scans I just don't see enough wear.

 

Trimming the bottom edge isn't necessarily done to remove flaws from the bottom edge... it is a means to getting the corners sharper.

[FlyingDonut]

BTW, I'm in agreement with you that PEDIGREE BOOKS are the way to go. Plus, while everyone talks about this being a HG issue, I seriously doubt that you will see much trimming done on true 9.2 / 9.4 hoping for 9.4 / 9.6's. Just too much financial risk if the book is caught.

 

Not so fast Steve......right now I'm sitting on scans of two PEDIGREE books that exhibit VERY POSSIBLY the same hack type job as displayed earlier in this thread. In fact, go look at the two copies of DD 2 in the CGC galleries right now and tell me they aren't the same book.

 

Can you put the two Daredevils together, the way you did on the two FF scans. I can't blow them up but they certainly look similar, especially the lower left corner.

[sfilosa]

Not so fast.

 

1) There are two Daredevil #2 Pacific Coast copies.

 

2) I saw the DD #2 CGC 9.8 yesterday. I believe Doug has had it for awhile.

 

3) The CGC 9.4 in the gallery is in an old label. It also appears to be the one sold on Heritage as a CGC 9.4 in a new label.

 

4) It also appears to be the one resubmitted and came back a CGC 9.4 (based on the submission list from the FF #3 & #10 submitter).

 

EDITED POST:

 

Also look at DD's head in the Logo. He has more room on the CGC 9.8 then the CGC 9.4.

 

Definitely not the same book.

 

 

[uclapeterg]

Do you think JP getting out of the hobby might have something to do with this thread? Just a thought.

[comicwiz]

Can you put the two Daredevils together, the way you did on the two FF scans. I can't blow them up but they certainly look similar, especially the lower left corner.

 

9.4 -- Click Image to Zoom		9.8 -- Click Image to Zoom

[DKB]

Not the same book. Look above Daredevil's head in the picture box at the top left. The 9.8 actually has MORE space.

 

You can see the same thing above the CCA stamp.

[DawgPhan]

If I owned stock in a company and was watching the Local News, and they said that there has been an OIL SPILL off the coast by an Exxon ship and:

 

1) I owned Exxon shares

2) Decided to immediately sell those shares before word got out to the National News.

3) Sold to someone who DIDN'T know this was happening

 

AM I A BAD GUY?

 

Steve, an excellent analogy!

 

At first glance, it would be hard for anyone to tell you you were a bad guy as you put it in your example and I have to admit that the parallel with the restored book is very strong: you are simply taking advantage of private information the buyer doesn't know.

 

I would still point out that in the Oil Spill example, the decreased in value comes from what I would dub an "act of nature" while in the restored case, the loss in value comes from "a human act" and there lays the difference in the scenarii.

 

In fact, if the oil spill was not accidental and the captain / company condoned oil dumping, you, as a shareholder, will want to hold the company responsible for this action and might join in a shareholders' suit against Exxon and this is what Red would probably want you to do, turn against the human agent that performed the act.

 

Very strong and elegent analogy but not enough to change minds I fear.

 

P.S.: I jumped on this thread around page 10 or so, so... I might not know all details but think I know enough of the context.

 

It is a terrible analogy. First he is trading on PUBLIC information. Once information is on the local news it is public news and there for suitable for using as you see fit. The trimmed books would fall under insider trading considering that the sellers knows something about the book that he is not mentioning and actually presents the book to be quite the contary to what it actually is. If you sell a book you know is trimmed as an untrimmed book, even if in a CGC slab, you are misrepresenting what you are selling..you might as well be switching comics. This is like when a person sells a car with hidden damage or a realtors sells a house without disclosing everything. The burden is on the seller to disclose everything about the item.

 

The original trimmer would be close to the insider trading since they know something that no one else knows and attempts to keep that information secret while using it to make money..

 

To use the Exxon example...It would be like an Exxon tanker going down in the middle of the atlantic and Exxon decides to keep it quite. Cover it up. Well you have this information and start selling off your shares. That is like what is going on hear..

 

For the Exxon example to be any good the person trimming and pressing would have to announce on this board that he pressed and trimmed all of his books and did it in a way so that cgc couldnt detect it. Then if you should one of those books the burden would no longer be on you since the information was made public...

 

The folks trimming and pressing are clearly trading on insider information to make money..

 

probably the reason that the resto service is invitation only...

[Rip]

The 9.4 was resubbed here. I think the 9.8 is a different book

 

http://www.heritagecomics.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=815&Lot_No=2405&src=pr#Photo

 

Big scan

[FFB]

Pretty obviously not the same book. The spine wrap line is different and the 9.4 has a tad less room between the top of the code stamp than the 9.8 does.

 

Can you put the two Daredevils together, the way you did on the two FF scans. I can't blow them up but they certainly look similar, especially the lower left corner.

 

9.4 -- Click Image to Zoom		9.8 -- Click Image to Zoom

[Red Hook]

Good point, FFB.

[sfilosa]

OK....

 

Has anyone SOLD a book that they felt was OVERGRADED?

 

Did you mention that when you sold it?

 

 

Why not..... because you RELIED on CGC to GRADE the book.

 

I'm relying on CGC to determine if a book is restored. If they missed it, why should I take the fall.

 

The fact that I read these boards and GAIN KNOWLEDGE, should put me in a position of being more MORAL then someone who doesn't read these boards?

 

That like my Oil Spill analogy. The fact that a gained knowledge FASTER then other people should mean I SHOULDN'T sell the stock.

 

And don't tell me that everyone in the world always gets knowledge at the same time because that is not the case. That's why they stop trading a stock prior to the SCHEDULED release of financial information as they know that everyone can not get the information at the same time.

[esquirecomics]

3) There is NOT ONE INVESTMENT in the world that doesn't have RISK. I'M a CPA (but no longer in Auditing) and I can tell you, no matter how much one knows, there will be MISTAKES. CPA firms give a "GOOD HOUSEKEEPING" seal to Financial Statements to companies everday, and as we all know from the HEADLINES (i.e. Enron, Worldcom, etc.) mistakes / errors are made (and on a MUCH BIGGER SCALE then the Comic Market).

 

Except, of course, Steve, that the examples you referenced above were not just mistakes/errors, they were demonstrative of corporate criminal fraud for which individuals have been prosecuted.

 

Just like CPA firms will do, CGC needs to learn from their mistakes.

 

We can only hope.

[esquirecomics]

CGC should draw the line and not accept anymore submissions from people who trim their books and try to pass them off as unrestored. If I owned a company and knew someone was using my business to perpetrate fraud, then that person would be banished (among other things). This is getting ridiculous......what's next, laser color touch and spine reinforcement?!

 

A very interesting suggestion. If any submitter has repeatedly attempted such an action, CGC should ban them. Someone should raise this directly with Steve B.

 

In fact, I encourage everyone to privately contact Steve B. and request an investigation to ensure this was an isolated incident rather than a deliberate attempt to circumvent CGC's restoration detection.

[esquirecomics]

 

If I hadn't made this clear before, Darth is on to something and I am announcing that I will allow forumite clients to pay me in either comics or bottles of Blue Label!

[FFB]

Give it up, Steve. CGC apparently missed a call on the slight trim job. It was a mistake and mistakes happen. Even Susan Cicconi says in her article in the grading guide that trimming can be virtually impossible to detect, because every book is trimmed on all three sides during manufacture.

 

In any event, now that it's apparent, it needs to be disclosed. Comparing this to an apparent overgrade is ridiculous. Grading is somewhat subjective; the existence of aftermarket trim is not, especially when you've got before and after scans proving that a book was trimmed.

 

I accept that CGC can miss a trim job when a trim job is done very skillfully and the amount removed is very slight. But to say that someone could still sell the book as unrestored when the person knows otherwise is just not right.

 

OK....

 

Has anyone SOLD a book that they felt was OVERGRADED?

 

Did you mention that when you sold it?

 

 

Why not..... because you RELIED on CGC to GRADE the book.

 

I'm relying on CGC to determine if a book is restored. If they missed it, why should I take the fall.

 

The fact that I read these boards and GAIN KNOWLEDGE, should put me in a position of being more MORAL then someone who doesn't read these boards?

 

That like my Oil Spill analogy. The fact that a gained knowledge FASTER then other people should mean I SHOULDN'T sell the stock.

 

And don't tell me that everyone in the world always gets knowledge at the same time because that is not the case. That's why they stop trading a stock prior to the SCHEDULED release of financial information as they know that everyone can not get the information at the same time.

[Sal]

Good point, FFB.

 

 

when i resize them both in Photoshop, and angle the 9.4 so that it's at the same angle as the 9.8 - note the 9.4 is crooked in the slab - the wrap looks nearly identical to me. pixellated to be sure, but the same.

 

the comic code part...that's not as certain as some are making it to be. again, resizing the books using a common point of reference - the DD indica box itself - there appears to be a lot less discrepancy than the naked eye sees.

 

but that's just me. and to be honest, i don't really even care all that much

[uclapeterg]

OK....

 

Has anyone SOLD a book that they felt was OVERGRADED?

 

Did you mention that when you sold it?

 

 

Why not..... because you RELIED on CGC to GRADE the book.

 

I'm relying on CGC to determine if a book is restored. If they missed it, why should I take the fall.

 

The fact that I read these boards and GAIN KNOWLEDGE, should put me in a position of being more MORAL then someone who doesn't read these boards?

 

That like my Oil Spill analogy. The fact that a gained knowledge FASTER then other people should mean I SHOULDN'T sell the stock.

 

And don't tell me that everyone in the world always gets knowledge at the same time because that is not the case. That's why they stop trading a stock prior to the SCHEDULED release of financial information as they know that everyone can not get the information at the same time.

 

Ok, I think restoration (missed) and "overgrading" are two entirely different animals. The main difference being that one is an opinion (grading).

 

"Why should I take the fall" - this reminds me of the "pass the buck" situation.

 

In your hypotethical situation,I think, Steve, that you should take the fall because it's the right (insert ethical) thing to do. I'm a CPA too. Didn't you learn about ethics? Esp with the Sarbanes-Oxley Act passing, the gov't is (trying to) crack(ing) down on the UNethical business practices.

[FlyingDonut]

CGC should draw the line and not accept anymore submissions from people who trim their books and try to pass them off as unrestored. If I owned a company and knew someone was using my business to perpetrate fraud, then that person would be banished (among other things). This is getting ridiculous......what's next, laser color touch and spine reinforcement?!

 

A very interesting suggestion. If any submitter has repeatedly attempted such an action, CGC should ban them. Someone should raise this directly with Steve B.

 

In fact, I encourage everyone to privately contact Steve B. and request an investigation to ensure this was an isolated incident rather than a deliberate attempt to circumvent CGC's restoration detection.

 

 

Well, they do ban C-K.