FF 3

[FFB]

CGC should draw the line and not accept anymore submissions from people who trim their books and try to pass them off as unrestored. If I owned a company and knew someone was using my business to perpetrate fraud, then that person would be banished (among other things). This is getting ridiculous......what's next, laser color touch and spine reinforcement?!

 

A very interesting suggestion. If any submitter has repeatedly attempted such an action, CGC should ban them. Someone should raise this directly with Steve B.

 

In fact, I encourage everyone to privately contact Steve B. and request an investigation to ensure this was an isolated incident rather than a deliberate attempt to circumvent CGC's restoration detection.

 

I doubt anyone needs to contact Steve to request an investigation. Every time an instance of missed restoration has been brought up, CGC has investigated the matter and EVERY time, they've done what was necessary to make the injured buyer whole. I am sure they are doing this right now with respect to the FF#3 and FF#10.

 

While I accept that CGC might miss a call occasionally on resto detection, I have confidence that CGC will always make it right when they make a mistake.

[heinlein99]

The 9.8 actually has MORE space.

 

Good Lord, it's - it's - REVERSE TRIMMING!

 

the gov't is (trying to) crack(ing) down on the UNethical business practices.

 

This is like wolves cracking down on the thefts of sheep.

[FFB]

Good point, FFB.

 

 

when i resize them both in Photoshop, and angle the 9.4 so that it's at the same angle as the 9.8 - note the 9.4 is crooked in the slab - the wrap looks nearly identical to me. pixellated to be sure, but the same.

 

the comic code part...that's not as certain as some are making it to be. again, resizing the books using a common point of reference - the DD indica box itself - there appears to be a lot less discrepancy than the naked eye sees.

 

but that's just me. and to be honest, i don't really even care all that much

 

The wrap is very close, but not identical. You can see the line just inward of the spine on the bottom of the 9.8 but you can't see it on the 9.4.

[DKB]

CGC should draw the line and not accept anymore submissions from people who trim their books and try to pass them off as unrestored. If I owned a company and knew someone was using my business to perpetrate fraud, then that person would be banished (among other things). This is getting ridiculous......what's next, laser color touch and spine reinforcement?!

 

A very interesting suggestion. If any submitter has repeatedly attempted such an action, CGC should ban them. Someone should raise this directly with Steve B.

 

In fact, I encourage everyone to privately contact Steve B. and request an investigation to ensure this was an isolated incident rather than a deliberate attempt to circumvent CGC's restoration detection.

 

I doubt anyone needs to contact Steve to request an investigation. Every time an instance of missed restoration has been brought up, CGC has investigated the matter and EVERY time, they've done what was necessary to make the injured buyer whole. I am sure they are doing this right now with respect to the FF#3 and FF#10.

 

While I accept that CGC might miss a call occasionally on resto detection, I have confidence that CGC will always make it right when they make a mistake.

 

I think it was a call for an investigation into the pattern of trimmed/restored books being submitted by the same person, not so much into these specific books. If its possible that an individual is purposefully attempting to represent known restored books as unrestored books, I think it worth looking into.

[esquirecomics]

CGC should draw the line and not accept anymore submissions from people who trim their books and try to pass them off as unrestored. If I owned a company and knew someone was using my business to perpetrate fraud, then that person would be banished (among other things). This is getting ridiculous......what's next, laser color touch and spine reinforcement?!

 

A very interesting suggestion. If any submitter has repeatedly attempted such an action, CGC should ban them. Someone should raise this directly with Steve B.

 

In fact, I encourage everyone to privately contact Steve B. and request an investigation to ensure this was an isolated incident rather than a deliberate attempt to circumvent CGC's restoration detection.

 

I doubt anyone needs to contact Steve to request an investigation. Every time an instance of missed restoration has been brought up, CGC has investigated the matter and EVERY time, they've done what was necessary to make the injured buyer whole. I am sure they are doing this right now with respect to the FF#3 and FF#10.

 

While I accept that CGC might miss a call occasionally on resto detection, I have confidence that CGC will always make it right when they make a mistake.

 

I'm not concerned with the occasional CGC mistake. I don't like them, but they happen.

 

I am referring to whether there is a pattern or practice concerning a specific submitter that reveals a concerted effort to sneak restoration techniques past CGC. If that is the case, that submitter should be banned.

[DawgPhan]

OK....

 

Has anyone SOLD a book that they felt was OVERGRADED?

 

Did you mention that when you sold it?

 

 

Why not..... because you RELIED on CGC to GRADE the book.

 

I'm relying on CGC to determine if a book is restored. If they missed it, why should I take the fall.

 

The fact that I read these boards and GAIN KNOWLEDGE, should put me in a position of being more MORAL then someone who doesn't read these boards?

 

That like my Oil Spill analogy. The fact that a gained knowledge FASTER then other people should mean I SHOULDN'T sell the stock.

 

And don't tell me that everyone in the world always gets knowledge at the same time because that is not the case. That's why they stop trading a stock prior to the SCHEDULED release of financial information as they know that everyone can not get the information at the same time.

 

Hmm..Lets see. You want someone to tell you it is alright for you to screw over someone because you got screwed over. OK. I hope you find them. Me I am going to tell you that your analogy doesnt work again. The grade of the comic is an opinion. The presence of restoration is a fact. Sure it would be silly to suggest that you should discount books that you are selling because you disagree with the grade that cgc gave it. Just like everyone mocks those ebayers that suggest that their book should have getten a higher grade from cgc and suggest you pay for the grade they think the book should have gotten. If you know that the book has been trimmed that is a fact. It isnt open for discussion. If you present the book as untrimmed then you are misrepresenting the truth aka lying.

 

 

Again getting information faster than someone else depends on who that someone else is. If the information is posted in a public place the information is no longer deemed private. Insider information is information that is still private. I hope you find someone to tell you it is alright to lie though.

[selegue]

 

Not so fast Steve......right now I'm sitting on scans of two PEDIGREE books that exhibit VERY POSSIBLY the same hack type job as displayed earlier in this thread. In fact, go look at the two copies of DD 2 in the CGC galleries right now and tell me they aren't the same book.

 

Can you put the two Daredevils together, the way you did on the two FF scans. I can't blow them up but they certainly look similar, especially the lower left corner.

 

"go look at the two copies of DD 2 in the CGC galleries right now"

How does one do that?

url or link?

 

Thanks,

Jack

[Red Hook]

Good point, FFB.

 

 

when i resize them both in Photoshop, and angle the 9.4 so that it's at the same angle as the 9.8 - note the 9.4 is crooked in the slab - the wrap looks nearly identical to me. pixellated to be sure, but the same.

 

the comic code part...that's not as certain as some are making it to be. again, resizing the books using a common point of reference - the DD indica box itself - there appears to be a lot less discrepancy than the naked eye sees.

 

but that's just me. and to be honest, i don't really even care all that much

 

The wrap is very close, but not identical. You can see the line just inward of the spine on the bottom of the 9.8 but you can't see it on the 9.4.

 

And you don't think that could have presented itself as the result of a good agressive pressing? Just asking. I also would love to get a scan of the other 9.4 PC.....that would nail it down. Actually the extra space over DDs head is pretty conclusive.

 

Here's another general question......assuming that the two (are there only two?) PC copies of this book were purchased at the same time and place.....and arrived in the same bundle......wouldn't you expect that two books whose spine sides so closely aligned would exhibit a very similar cut on the right edge too. Or would book sizes vary that much on books produced at the same time off the presses?

[DKB]

 

Not so fast Steve......right now I'm sitting on scans of two PEDIGREE books that exhibit VERY POSSIBLY the same hack type job as displayed earlier in this thread. In fact, go look at the two copies of DD 2 in the CGC galleries right now and tell me they aren't the same book.

 

Can you put the two Daredevils together, the way you did on the two FF scans. I can't blow them up but they certainly look similar, especially the lower left corner.

 

"go look at the two copies of DD 2 in the CGC galleries right now"

How does one do that?

url or link?

 

Thanks,

Jack

 

http://www.cgccomics.com/gallery/

[selegue]

"go look at the two copies of DD 2 in the CGC galleries right now"

How does one do that?

...

 

http://www.cgccomics.com/gallery/

 

Thanks!

 

Jack

[sfilosa]

Why should I take the fall" - this reminds me of the "pass the buck" situation.

 

In your hypotethical situation,I think, Steve, that you should take the fall because it's the right (insert ethical) thing to do. I'm a CPA too. Didn't you learn about ethics? Esp with the Sarbanes-Oxley Act passing, the gov't is (trying to) crack(ing) down on the UNethical business practices.

 

 

As a CPA Firm auditing a company, they RELY on Management for the F/S (this is spelled out specifically in their audit report). It's there job to either agree or disagree with the companies records. A CPA Firm is like CGC (basically giving a good housekeeping seal of approval).

 

Now I, the investor, buy stock in a company. Then I find out that the audit firm didn't do their job. I sue the COMPANY and CPA FIRM.

 

I DO NOT SUE the person that SOLD me the STOCK. Even if I felt that he/she had knowledge that the F/S were not what they were made out to be.

 

 

ONCE AGAIN, I would hope that CGC would do the right thing. But who am I to automatically say that the book is trimmed. If CGC tells me they missed it, but won't fix the problem, then I have a problem with CGC.

 

I pay TOP DOLLAR for CGC books so that I can have the piece of mind that I can SELL a book as what I BOUGHT it (i.e. CGC bought universal 9.0, sold as universal 9.0).

 

Sorry if I don't feel like taking the high moral ground on a PROFESSIONAL companies mistake.

[FFB]

Good point, FFB.

 

 

when i resize them both in Photoshop, and angle the 9.4 so that it's at the same angle as the 9.8 - note the 9.4 is crooked in the slab - the wrap looks nearly identical to me. pixellated to be sure, but the same.

 

the comic code part...that's not as certain as some are making it to be. again, resizing the books using a common point of reference - the DD indica box itself - there appears to be a lot less discrepancy than the naked eye sees.

 

but that's just me. and to be honest, i don't really even care all that much

 

The wrap is very close, but not identical. You can see the line just inward of the spine on the bottom of the 9.8 but you can't see it on the 9.4.

 

And you don't think that could have presented itself as the result of a good agressive pressing? Just asking. I also would love to get a scan of the other 9.4 PC.....that would nail it down. Actually the extra space over DDs head is pretty conclusive.

 

Could you realign the spine slightly with a press job? Sure. It would take a pretty aggressive job though, such as the spine roll removal pressing technique. You'd have to flatten the book out completely, then refold it, leaving no evidence of the original fold. Maybe you could accomplish that (I doubt it though, without taking the book apart), and even if you did, the evidence that would likely remain from the original fold and/or likely resulting spine roll (because you've got two folds at the spine now that would give you the appearance of a slightly rolled spine) would probably keep the book out of 9.8.

 

Then there's the question of why someone would risk such an aggressive maneuver with a book that has a clean spine and started out as a 9.4. The 9.4 already had a near-perfect wrap -- the 9.8 is less well centered than the 9.4 was and the 9.8's wrap is slightly tilted. Why would someone intentionally refold the spine line to make it less evenly centered? A simple NDP press job wouldn't change the spine alignment. It would just flatten out the book. If someone wanted to change the spine alignment, they'd have to do it on purpose. There would have been no reason to do that on the 9.4.

 

And, as you note, there is extra room over DD's head on the 9.4. No way to explain that except to acknowledge that they're not the same book.

 

Here's another general question......assuming that the two (are there only two?) PC copies of this book were purchased at the same time and place.....and arrived in the same bundle......wouldn't you expect that two books whose spine sides so closely aligned would exhibit a very similar cut on the right edge too. Or would book sizes vary that much on books produced at the same time off the presses?

 

Think about all of the books you see next to each other on the shelves at a comic store. It is very, very common for books printed and shipped together one right after another to vary a lot with respect to wraps -- and that's with the far-improved printing and binding technology in use today.

[Scrooge]

OK....

 

Has anyone SOLD a book that they felt was OVERGRADED?

 

Did you mention that when you sold it?

 

 

Why not..... because you RELIED on CGC to GRADE the book.

 

I'm relying on CGC to determine if a book is restored. If they missed it, why should I take the fall.

 

The fact that I read these boards and GAIN KNOWLEDGE, should put me in a position of being more MORAL then someone who doesn't read these boards?

 

That like my Oil Spill analogy. The fact that a gained knowledge FASTER then other people should mean I SHOULDN'T sell the stock.

 

And don't tell me that everyone in the world always gets knowledge at the same time because that is not the case. That's why they stop trading a stock prior to the SCHEDULED release of financial information as they know that everyone can not get the information at the same time.

 

Hmm..Lets see. You want someone to tell you it is alright for you to screw over someone because you got screwed over. OK. I hope you find them. Me I am going to tell you that your analogy doesnt work again. The grade of the comic is an opinion. The presence of restoration is a fact. Sure it would be silly to suggest that you should discount books that you are selling because you disagree with the grade that cgc gave it. Just like everyone mocks those ebayers that suggest that their book should have getten a higher grade from cgc and suggest you pay for the grade they think the book should have gotten. If you know that the book has been trimmed that is a fact. It isnt open for discussion. If you present the book as untrimmed then you are misrepresenting the truth aka lying.

 

 

Again getting information faster than someone else depends on who that someone else is. If the information is posted in a public place the information is no longer deemed private. Insider information is information that is still private. I hope you find someone to tell you it is alright to lie though.

 

DawgPhan,

 

First, thank you for clearly pointing out what was nagging at me in Steve's example - the difference between the private versus public nature of the information in the two examples.

 

However, I have still to help out Steve on two points:

 

1. he is right in pointing out that the information becoming public does not mean that every one is equally informed and there is the potential for someone to trade profitably on public information (and I don't want to restrict I discussion to the stock market in which this possibility is almost non-present).

 

2. Should Steve really be considered an insider in this case? He is not party to the people who did the trim job. It is his due diligence in being knowledgeable in the hobby that led him to discover the fact that the book is trimmed. In that, while he has privately determined the book is trimmed, he is not an insider.

 

I know morally he should in good conscience disclose his discovery of the trim job. Note that in my first post, I did point out that the correct response to his discovery would be to turn agains the original trimming party.

[uclapeterg]

I guess I'm not completely understanding your hypotethical situation. Is the book definitely trimmed? or only suspected of being trimmed? and who is doing the "suspecting"? And if you brought this to CGC's attention, what would their response have been?

[FFB]

OK....

 

Has anyone SOLD a book that they felt was OVERGRADED?

 

Did you mention that when you sold it?

 

 

Why not..... because you RELIED on CGC to GRADE the book.

 

I'm relying on CGC to determine if a book is restored. If they missed it, why should I take the fall.

 

The fact that I read these boards and GAIN KNOWLEDGE, should put me in a position of being more MORAL then someone who doesn't read these boards?

 

That like my Oil Spill analogy. The fact that a gained knowledge FASTER then other people should mean I SHOULDN'T sell the stock.

 

And don't tell me that everyone in the world always gets knowledge at the same time because that is not the case. That's why they stop trading a stock prior to the SCHEDULED release of financial information as they know that everyone can not get the information at the same time.

 

Hmm..Lets see. You want someone to tell you it is alright for you to screw over someone because you got screwed over. OK. I hope you find them. Me I am going to tell you that your analogy doesnt work again. The grade of the comic is an opinion. The presence of restoration is a fact. Sure it would be silly to suggest that you should discount books that you are selling because you disagree with the grade that cgc gave it. Just like everyone mocks those ebayers that suggest that their book should have getten a higher grade from cgc and suggest you pay for the grade they think the book should have gotten. If you know that the book has been trimmed that is a fact. It isnt open for discussion. If you present the book as untrimmed then you are misrepresenting the truth aka lying.

 

 

Again getting information faster than someone else depends on who that someone else is. If the information is posted in a public place the information is no longer deemed private. Insider information is information that is still private. I hope you find someone to tell you it is alright to lie though.

 

DawgPhan,

 

First, thank you for clearly pointing out what was nagging at me in Steve's example - the difference between the private versus public nature of the information in the two examples.

 

However, I have still to help out Steve on two points:

 

1. he is right in pointing out that the information becoming public does not mean that every one is equally informed and there is the potential for someone to trade profitably on public information (and I don't want to restrict I discussion to the stock market in which this possibility is almost non-present).

 

2. Should Steve really be considered an insider in this case? He is not party to the people who did the trim job. It is his due diligence in being knowledgeable in the hobby that led him to discover the fact that the book is trimmed. In that, while he has privately determined the book is trimmed, he is not an insider.

 

I know morally he should in good conscience disclose his discovery of the trim job. Note that in my first post, I did point out that the correct response to his discovery would be to turn agains the original trimming party.

 

The CGC grade and restoration check are simply an opinion as to the grade and existence of restoration -- just like when you buy a raw book from Metropolis that Vinny says is a 9.4 unrestored. If the owner later determines conclusively that the book was trimmed, knowingly selling it in a CGC slab without disclosing the restoration is no different than selling the raw book from Metro without disclosing restoration that was later found to exist. Either way, the restoration needs to be disclosed when selling it and it is unlawful (not to mention unethical) not to disclose it to a prospective purchaser because the existence of restoration is a material fact that affects the value of the item.

[sfilosa]

guess I'm not completely understanding your hypotethical situation. Is the book definitely trimmed? or only suspected of being trimmed? and who is doing the "suspecting"? And if you brought this to CGC's attention, what would their response have been?

 

Good questions.

 

If I suspected that a book I purchased was trimmed, I would ask CGC to investigate. I use suspected because how could I absolutely know with 100% confidence. I'm not an expert. I rely on CGC to be the expert.

 

I would hope that CGC would investigate but if they don't, I would assume they don't believe the book is trimmed or possible worse, realize this happens more then we know. In either case, I'm suppose to bear the risk of buying CGC books? I don't think so.

[FFB]

guess I'm not completely understanding your hypotethical situation. Is the book definitely trimmed? or only suspected of being trimmed? and who is doing the "suspecting"? And if you brought this to CGC's attention, what would their response have been?

 

Good questions.

 

If I suspected that a book I purchased was trimmed, I would ask CGC to investigate. I use suspected because how could I absolutely know with 100% confidence. I'm not an expert. I rely on CGC to be the expert.

 

I would hope that CGC would investigate but if they don't, I would assume they don't believe the book is trimmed or possible worse, realize this happens more then we know. In either case, I'm suppose to bear the risk of buying CGC books? I don't think so.

 

What if you've got before and after scans that show that the book is missing paper?

[Red Hook]

 

Think about all of the books you see next to each other on the shelves at a comic store. It is very, very common for books printed and shipped together one right after another to vary a lot with respect to wraps -- and that's with the far-improved printing and binding technology in use today.

 

But my point is.....if you overlay the 9.8 on top of the 9.4 in a scan, there is definitely "less book" there. I'm not talking about the wrap as much as I am about the actual dimensions of the book. Could they differ that much on books that were, at least theoretically cut at the same time?

 

Take a look at the image below. What you are looking at is the 9.8, laid right on top of the scan of the 9.4. The 9.8 was giving a greenish cast so that you could see where the 9.4 extended beyond.....quite a bit on the upper half of the right side and a little edge at the bottom. There is no equivalent difference in overlap on the spineside edges. I did a very precise alignment of the artwork on the covers. Very precise.

 

Now this is just for scholarly scientific research. Can two books differ this much so close in a run? The 9.8 is decidedly more narrow in my opinion. I could buy that quite easily in two disparate copies of the same book, but these are two twin books from a pedigree collection.

 

 

 

 

And yes, I thought about the risk of altering a 9.4 to grab a higher grade....it wouldn't be me, that's for sure.

[Scrooge]

The CGC grade and restoration check are simply an opinion as to the grade and existence of restoration -- just like when you buy a raw book from Metropolis that Vinny says is a 9.4 unrestored. If the owner later determines conclusively that the book was trimmed, knowingly selling it in a CGC slab without disclosing the restoration is no different than selling the raw book from Metro without disclosing restoration that was later found to exist. Either way, the restoration needs to be disclosed when selling it and it is unlawful (not to mention unethical) not to disclose it to a prospective purchaser because the existence of restoration is a material fact that affects the value of the item.

 

Agreed, hence my indicating that the person should turn back towards the person they bought the book from and ask if they knew of the, say, trim job. I agree that CGC is only providing an opinion backed by its reputation, reputation that will suffer if more of these instances are unearthed. I seriously doubt that CGC did anything unsavory but simply missed a very hard to detect alteration to the comic.

 

However, considering a lot of eBay sellers and some dealers have a no return policy on slabs, what would you suggest Steve do in this instance? Take the loss and since the book is unacceptable in his collection, resell it with full disclosure of what his knowledge and expertise tells him? What other avenues does he have for making him whole in this situation since he received a sub-par "product" in this transaction?

[skybolt]

I guess the books could have different cuts, since the top edge near the DD logo varies as well.