FF 3

[DKB]

Did I read here that there is the ability, for those that are members, to look up WHO submitted books? I'd love to be able to steer clear of Ewert submitted books no matter who is selling them now and how many times they've changed hands. And I'd love for dealers to be able to steer clear of Ewert submitted books too. And even better, I'd love for all you diligent folk to be able to track down other possible practicers of this nonsense and brand them with the red 'R'.

 

I'm guessing there's nothing in place to stop constant submitters of Restored books from submitting? Shouldn't there be a requirement that if a book is restored, and you know it as such, that it should be documented as part of what is submitted to CGC? Sort of like...a book you are submitting as a pedigree? And if you keep falsely representing your books, boom, you get the boot?

 

It makes sense that this should be the case. If you restore a book and try to get it past CGC as an unrestored one, you are essentially banking on CGCs reputation as restoration dectectors to sell a book for more than its worth. But the eventual effect is injury to CGCs reputation when it misses the 1/64th of an inch trim and someone else, like the "CGC forum police", catch it. It seems like it would be in CGC's best interest to stop those folks from submitting.

 

It is obvious to me that something fishy is going on, and that much of what has been pointed out in this thread points back to Ewert. With one thread of discovery here, he has, in my opinion, has really injured CGCs reputation.

[ComicSupply]

It is funny because back before I posted here I used to see Ewert's books and think man he really has the stuff. Now I just think, what a foker ripping people off. Too good to be true, probably is. Such a shame.

[skybolt]

CGC should draw the line and not accept anymore submissions from people who trim their books and try to pass them off as unrestored. If I owned a company and knew someone was using my business to perpetrate fraud, then that person would be banished (among other things). This is getting ridiculous......what's next, laser color touch and spine reinforcement?!

[Darthdiesel]

.....btw, scanboy, i'm gonna have to ask for your expertise on this 9.8 MSH 8 I just got which I bought for $150 but it looks just like a 9.6 that sold for $10 with vig on heritage 2 auctions ago. I'm thinking someone pressed and trimmed the edges on it and CT'd the black spidey costume on the cover and tried to pull a fast one on me. I'll send you the scans then I'm gonna kick rocketeer's butt at the forum dinner...or not...based on your research results. This modern buyer needs protection, beeyotch!

...A.)...How did I get involved in this?

...2.)...I will not be attending the Forum Dinner that evening,...but will be around for you to kick my butt,..

 

and D.)...If you want a true MSHSW #8 9.8 white I suggest you buy this from me now before I list it on Ebay this Thurs,...

 

 

 

sweet book...btw ...You're always involved. Between you and greggy, I can always blame one of you as the result of anything bad that's goin on... and I'll take the MSH if you sell it at a 9.6 price I owe oldguy a nice copy and still haven't made good to this day...

[joe_collector]

I don't know, looks pretty trimmed to me.

 

[skybolt]

Sorry DKB..........I guess we were thinking the same thing at the same time.

[Darthdiesel]

I don't know, looks pretty trimmed to me.

 

Ouch, that's one severe .32 mm slice if I've ever seen one - no doubt there's some funny business going on...well that's it...now I'm gonna have to waste my Monday afternoon making phone calls and sending emails, I'm getting Harshen, Steve, Borock, freaking Newt, the FBI and ATF all involved and if I'm suing I'll get Mark Esq. to represent me for a bottle of Blue Label... what has this hobby come to when crooked dealers are chopping up these treasured moderns that have survived the trials of time, all 20 years, only to be mangled in 2005! I'm so disgusted with this hobby that I'm swearing off HG copper books until heads have rolled for this... I mean for Silver and Golden age this would be commonplace and expected, negligible really, but when blessed Copper books are mutilated with such disrespect,... well...well... I NEVER!

[BassGMan]

The facts are that Steve doesn't have to say anything if he so chooses, and Heritage is under no obligation to tell anyone anything regarding who bought what.

 

All this comes down to imho, is that if you are going to chase uber-grade books, you better be aware of the risks involved. Remember....

 

- CGC is not infallible. (They'll be the first to tell you.)

 

- Greed corrupts. (Or the lure of the challenge to beat the system, whichever one......think of it as hackers trying to break down the latest computer security software.)

 

- The buyers need help. Lots of it.

 

Very good points Brad. I would add to that how ridiculous it appears (at least to me) how much of a difference 0.2 can make in the FMV of a book. Not only due to inconsistent grading, but due to undetectable forms of resto. I can understand a 15% - 25% difference in FMV for 0.2, but anything more is IMO knowing how that 0.2 or 0.4 can come and go at the tip of a hat. Very risky stuff here that some guys are playing with. Reminds me of Pets.com and the like.

[Red Hook]

Well, Sid....it's the .2 between say a 9.4 and a 9.6, or the .4 between a 9.4 and a 9.8. If you realize you are playing with financial dynamite, then you stick to 8.5 & 9.0s.....

 

This has gotten very scary to me over the last 24 hours.

[BassGMan]

CGC should draw the line and not accept anymore submissions from people who trim their books and try to pass them off as unrestored. If I owned a company and knew someone was using my business to perpetrate fraud, then that person would be banished (among other things). This is getting ridiculous......what's next, laser color touch and spine reinforcement?!

 

Unless I'm missing something, I'd assume that if CGC refused to do business with anybody, all that guy would need to do is to get somebody else to submit for him on his behalf. Same thing could be done when selling the books if necessary.

[DKB]

CGC should draw the line and not accept anymore submissions from people who trim their books and try to pass them off as unrestored. If I owned a company and knew someone was using my business to perpetrate fraud, then that person would be banished (among other things). This is getting ridiculous......what's next, laser color touch and spine reinforcement?!

 

Unless I'm missing something, I'd assume that if CGC refused to do business with anybody, all that guy would need to do is to get somebody else to submit for him on his behalf.

 

So that guy gets banned too. Eventually you'll run out of scumbags willing to submit your restored books...eventually as in likely never, which sucks.

[comicwiz]

Is anyone else disgusted that these HG early Silver books are being literally destroyed in pursuit of the almighty dollar? This was happening pre-CGC, but I remember hearing that the move away from undisclosed resto was one of the main benefits of CGC.

 

Doesn't seem to be happening, and it's just started a whole new wave of "undetectable to CGC' restoration. This is just getting stupid.

 

Just imagine how many "restored from raw" books, that no one can cross-reference, are out there sitting in HG CGC Universal slabs?

 

Revulsion set in quite some time ago.

 

This phenomenom of label-shleps blind to the annhilation of the comic market at the hands of shark-circlers is one thing.

 

But to continue turning a blind eye to repeated examples of wrongdoing, chicanery, deception and cover-ups really only indicates nothing more to me than the obvious: quite a few people in our fraternity of comic collectors have not only fallen down the stupid tree, but have managed to somehow hit every branch on the way down.

[comicwiz]

I think there are dealers out there getting bitten in the asss right now too. It's a very tricky time to be trafficking in high grade books. The temptation for someone, somewhere along the line to slip one by is great. Add to that the variance in grading and you can have a pretty confusing situtation.

 

Still much, much better than the pre CGC days.

 

Yes, thank God they've gotten rid of the pissant overgraders and resto artists who were stealing hundreds to make room for the highly organized mercenaries who are playing the system to steal thousands!

 

 

[skybolt]

CGC should draw the line and not accept anymore submissions from people who trim their books and try to pass them off as unrestored. If I owned a company and knew someone was using my business to perpetrate fraud, then that person would be banished (among other things). This is getting ridiculous......what's next, laser color touch and spine reinforcement?!

 

Unless I'm missing something, I'd assume that if CGC refused to do business with anybody, all that guy would need to do is to get somebody else to submit for him on his behalf. Same thing could be done when selling the books if necessary.

 

If that other person is willing to put their reputation at stake then they can take that chance. However, if CGC draws the line and says fraudulent acts like this will not be tolerated, then hopefully people will think twice before pulling something like this. The way things are preceived now is that if you can get it past CGC then great for you, otherwise, CGC will just slap you with a PLOD for your troubles.

 

At the very least they should come out and say that this sort of business cannot be tolerated, then if someone is caught in the act, they won't use the excuse of "well, I didn't know I was doing anything wrong.....I thought CGC accepted minor trimming just like pressing."

[sfilosa]

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1) I'm not sure the buyer really needs as much help as you think. Even if someone was pretty sure the book(s) had been trimmed, it would be easy to sell the book in another venue (say eBay or a Convention). Once again, the buyer RELIED on CGC and their abiltiy to detect restoration.

 

 

 

 

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Your other two points I can live with Steve, but not this one. So you're saying that as long as the gift keeps on giving ... ie. it's okay to just pass it along? Good Lord, that's a pretty dismal scenario. I'm not concerned about the liquidity of the book as much as the unethical nature of what is going down, and about the disrespect shown to these cool books that made it down the time tunnel for over 40 years, and then got disfigured in 2005.

 

I understand your concern.

 

But let's look at it this way.

 

If I owned stock in a company and was watching the Local News, and they said that there has been an OIL SPILL off the coast by an Exxon ship and:

 

1) I owned Exxon shares

2) Decided to immediately sell those shares before word got out to the National News.

3) Sold to someone who DIDN'T know this was happening

 

AM I A BAD GUY?

 

In the case of a possible trimmed comic books, I would tried to get my money back from the person I purchased the book from or call CGC to get more information (and see if they felt they needed to correct the issue). But ONCE AGAIN, I RELIED on CGC to determine if the book was restored, and if they made a MISTAKE, why should I take the FINANCIAL FALL.

 

Back to the FF #10, I still can not see why ANYONE would TRIM the bottom? From the blown up Heritage scans I just don't see enough wear. Maybe the book wouldn't be a 9.6's but the wear is so minimal that it just seem that trimming would not improve the grade (while pressing definitely did).

 

BTW, I'm in agreement with you that PEDIGREE BOOKS are the way to go. Plus, while everyone talks about this being a HG issue, I seriously doubt that you will see much trimming done on true 9.2 / 9.4 hoping for 9.4 / 9.6's. Just too much financial risk if the book is caught.

[DKB]

CGC should draw the line and not accept anymore submissions from people who trim their books and try to pass them off as unrestored. If I owned a company and knew someone was using my business to perpetrate fraud, then that person would be banished (among other things). This is getting ridiculous......what's next, laser color touch and spine reinforcement?!

 

Unless I'm missing something, I'd assume that if CGC refused to do business with anybody, all that guy would need to do is to get somebody else to submit for him on his behalf. Same thing could be done when selling the books if necessary.

 

If that other person is willing to put their reputation at stake then they can take that chance. However, if CGC draws the line and says fraudulent acts like this will not be tolerated, then hopefully people will think twice before pulling something like this. The way things are preceived now is that if you can get it past CGC then great for you, otherwise, CGC will just slap you with a PLOD for your troubles.

 

At the very least they should come out and say that this sort of business cannot be tolerated, then if someone is caught in the act, they won't use the excuse of "well, I didn't know I was doing anything wrong.....I thought CGC accepted minor trimming just like pressing."

 

And...

 

How much of a pain in the [embarrassing lack of self control] does it become for the frauds to have someone else submit the books, and to also have someone else sell them? Ewert, for instance, couldn't sell under his current eBay handle because it would be easy to track who submitted his books and ban them too. He gets a decent premium, which is downright wrong, and that would go away under a new ID or if being sold by another. And how long would that last? Dunno about you, but Ewert's auctions are pretty unique, unique in how many and how good, and that would stand out real fast no matter who is selling.

 

 

 

After Ewert makes his fortune, do you think they'll do a MTV Cribs episode on him, and as he leads the cameras into the basement he'll say, "And this is where the magic happens!"

[Fan4Fan]

In the case of a possible trimmed comic books, I would tried to get my money back from the person I purchased the book from or call CGC to get more information (and see if they felt they needed to correct the issue). But ONCE AGAIN, I RELIED on CGC to determine if the book was restored, and if they made a MISTAKE, why should I take the FINANCIAL FALL.

 

Exactly! Why should YOU?

 

But anyone else is OK (by not outing the book)?

[OldGuy]

I think there are dealers out there getting bitten in the asss right now too. It's a very tricky time to be trafficking in high grade books. The temptation for someone, somewhere along the line to slip one by is great. Add to that the variance in grading and you can have a pretty confusing situtation.

 

Still much, much better than the pre CGC days.

 

Yes, thank God they've gotten rid of the pissant overgraders and resto artists who were stealing hundreds to make room for the highly organized mercenaries who are playing the system to steal thousands!

 

 

 

[Scrooge]

If I owned stock in a company and was watching the Local News, and they said that there has been an OIL SPILL off the coast by an Exxon ship and:

 

1) I owned Exxon shares

2) Decided to immediately sell those shares before word got out to the National News.

3) Sold to someone who DIDN'T know this was happening

 

AM I A BAD GUY?

 

Steve, an excellent analogy!

 

At first glance, it would be hard for anyone to tell you you were a bad guy as you put it in your example and I have to admit that the parallel with the restored book is very strong: you are simply taking advantage of private information the buyer doesn't know.

 

I would still point out that in the Oil Spill example, the decreased in value comes from what I would dub an "act of nature" while in the restored case, the loss in value comes from "a human act" and there lays the difference in the scenarii.

 

In fact, if the oil spill was not accidental and the captain / company condoned oil dumping, you, as a shareholder, will want to hold the company responsible for this action and might join in a shareholders' suit against Exxon and this is what Red would probably want you to do, turn against the human agent that performed the act.

 

Very strong and elegant analogy but not enough to change minds I fear.

 

P.S.: I jumped on this thread around page 10 or so, so... I might not know all details but think I know enough of the context.

[Red Hook]

BTW, I'm in agreement with you that PEDIGREE BOOKS are the way to go. Plus, while everyone talks about this being a HG issue, I seriously doubt that you will see much trimming done on true 9.2 / 9.4 hoping for 9.4 / 9.6's. Just too much financial risk if the book is caught.

 

Not so fast Steve......right now I'm sitting on scans of two PEDIGREE books that exhibit VERY POSSIBLY the same hack type job as displayed earlier in this thread. In fact, go look at the two copies of DD 2 in the CGC galleries right now and tell me they aren't the same book.