Sqeggs Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 I'm in my early 40's and while the DC books are iconic in nature, the Cap-1 book just does it for me from the artwork to the historical significance (WW2) to the current popularity in mainstream media. I would find it hard to believe Cap-1 doesn't 'close the gap' with the DC books in the next decade given the embrace that Captain America is now seeing worldwide with the younger generations, especially if the CA franchise continues to do well at the box-office... This discussion, imo, isn't about what the 40+ crowd feels but rather how the events of today and tomorrow will shape the valuation landscape of these books in the coming decade or two... Just my thoughts & opinions but I would think if you laid out all four books in front of a 20-to-35 year old collector and stated they all have equal value, Cap-1 would I bet would be selected first more than it wasn't. It's an apples and oranges discussion again, as always happens when some people talk about dollar values and some don't. Cap #1 may have increased in value lately due to media exposure of the character but I don't think it's a more important book than Marvel #1. And if dollar values were not as high as they are for key books, my opinion is that the investment crowd wouldn't have pushed the value of Cap #1 so high. It's the appeal of investment that changes market leaders so drastically IMO and not a change of heart and not the immediate new love of a character. And I'm not dumping on Cap #1, it's a killer book...and I'm primarily a Timely guy, but there was a time when it was a slow book. Thanks Roy for your thoughts and I'm probably not explaining myself well (like usual )... No dumping on Cap-1 taken whatsoever as it is interesting to read everyone's opinions on this topic as it has been an excellent discussion to follow. The question, for me at least, is if the Cap-1 book is in a sustainable growth mode over a longer time frame and how that growth compares vs. the other Big-3. It'll be interesting to follow as we move forward as we see PEP-22 making a move upward, per Adam's above post, so how will all these books look, in hierarchy/valuation, in 5-10-15 years from now. (thumbs u What I find more interesting than the ranking is how they got there. It's not about reading anymore, which nobody foresaw coming decades ago. Ain't that the truth? When it started, I thought CGC would go nowhere because while slabbing coins or baseball cards made sense, if you slabbed comics you could no longer read them. Not a problem, as it turned out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgallo Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 IN addition to the reasons that he states, there is also the added desirability of owning the first appearance of Captain America over an issue '1' of a character that had already been out for a bit. None of the other big-time GA books have the combination Cap #1 has: *No.1 issue of a series devoted to that specific superhero. *First appearance of a classic superhero. *Origin of a classic superhero. *First appearance of that superhero's arch nemesis (Red Skull). *Classic cover. *Impressive cover artistically/visually. Action #1 -- an anthology series, one hero story, classic but artistically simple cover. Tec #27 -- an anthology series, one hero story, no origin whatsoever. Superman #1 -- no 1st app., mostly reprinted material, no notable villains. Batman #1 -- not the 1st app., of the title character. Marvel #1 -- No top-tier characters, no noteworthy villains. In those respects, no other GA book is in Cap #1's league. And the combination of factors listed above are, to me, much more than "Oh yeah, that's neat" kind of stuff. The above doesn't really work because of several factors. First off Batman 1 is very important as it introduces perhaps the most famous villain ever in the Joker with Catwoman to boot. Also all the books are not equally rare so that impacts things greatly. The real question is if all the books were equally rare (taking the Rarity out of Superman 1) where would they rank. Personally I think Superman 1 is an over rated book and if it wasn't "rare" I think it would be talked about in a very different way. Yes it has a great cover but it's all reprints. The big appeal problem is overall world desire. Superman is probably the best known superhero with Batman and Spider man close behind, where is Captain America in the world market. Cap is a very US centered book much like G I JOE is very US centered as such it makes it harder to appeal to people outside the US. To me this is one of the big problems with Cap 1 ever competing with Action 1 or Tec 27. I do think it is the Golden Age Marvel book to own and of course it came at a time when I no longer have a copy ( I would gladly trade my coverless Marvel 1 towards a cap1) . Time will tell when people start to sell all the copies they have been holding onto and if the prices drop or go up. I agree with a previous poster in that I think this last group of sales are a bit ahead of the pack and I look forward to the next round to see if the prices stay at this high level, drop or god for bid go up again. James G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne-Tec Posted July 22, 2014 Author Share Posted July 22, 2014 (edited) If we go by the most recent example, MOS vs. Winter Soldier, we actually see surprising results. MOS actually did better in the US (so far, WS is less than four months old), but overall globally, it's Winter Soldier that's been the most successful. While there's no doubt that Cap is an American character, current global audiences outside the US don't seem to be effected negatively by this. A lot of that may have to do with how good WS was, but that's not something to be overlooked or mentioned is passing. These films are budgeted with hundreds of millions of dollars, and in WS's case, are close to grossing a BILLION dollars in the global market. The combination of current comics, cartoons and video games can't touch that -- not financially and not in terms of exposure. So as we speak, Cap is defying our previous conceptions of being more limited to US appeal. In respects to Cap #1, the unfortunate reality of who Hitler was has left him a personality whom a great many people enjoy to see getting punched in the face. He wasn't just an enemy of the US, he was an enemy of many, many nations. So while the red, white and blue do showcase Cap as proudly American, who he was fighting is something that the globe can very much relate to. Edited July 22, 2014 by Wayne-Tec Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gadzukes Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 IN addition to the reasons that he states, there is also the added desirability of owning the first appearance of Captain America over an issue '1' of a character that had already been out for a bit. None of the other big-time GA books have the combination Cap #1 has: *No.1 issue of a series devoted to that specific superhero. *First appearance of a classic superhero. *Origin of a classic superhero. *First appearance of that superhero's arch nemesis (Red Skull). *Classic cover. *Impressive cover artistically/visually. Action #1 -- an anthology series, one hero story, classic but artistically simple cover. Tec #27 -- an anthology series, one hero story, no origin whatsoever. Superman #1 -- no 1st app., mostly reprinted material, no notable villains. Batman #1 -- not the 1st app., of the title character. Marvel #1 -- No top-tier characters, no noteworthy villains. In those respects, no other GA book is in Cap #1's league. And the combination of factors listed above are, to me, much more than "Oh yeah, that's neat" kind of stuff. The above doesn't really work because of several factors. First off Batman 1 is very important as it introduces perhaps the most famous villain ever in the Joker with Catwoman to boot. Also all the books are not equally rare so that impacts things greatly. The real question is if all the books were equally rare (taking the Rarity out of Superman 1) where would they rank. Personally I think Superman 1 is an over rated book and if it wasn't "rare" I think it would be talked about in a very different way. Yes it has a great cover but it's all reprints. The big appeal problem is overall world desire. Superman is probably the best known superhero with Batman and Spider man close behind, where is Captain America in the world market. Cap is a very US centered book much like G I JOE is very US centered as such it makes it harder to appeal to people outside the US. To me this is one of the big problems with Cap 1 ever competing with Action 1 or Tec 27. I do think it is the Golden Age Marvel book to own and of course it came at a time when I no longer have a copy ( I would gladly trade my coverless Marvel 1 towards a cap1) . James G When the 1st CA movie came out I for one didn't think it would play well on the world market due to anti-American sentiment. It ended up at $194mil in the foreign market which I think is respectable. But once he got linked into the Avengers I think his popularity grew world wide (even though he was my least favorite character in that movie). CAWS has grossed $454mil in the foreign market, more than doubling the 1st movie. I'd say Cap's iconic association with being a symbol for the USA is not hurting him as much as we thought it might. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedFury Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 I think a lot of people forget that before Superman 1, there were NO super-hero titles AT ALL. There were a few super-heroes appearing in anthology titles, mixed in with other adventure stories, but no standalone titles. Superman 1 was the first super-hero in his own title. It sold a million copies (in 3 printings) and proved not only that super-heroes were viable on their own, but the future of the medium. To say "it's just a bunch of reprints" does not place the book in it's proper historical context. It was a paradigm shift for the industry. It proved that super-heroes sold big time. A publisher was finally willing to bet on a super-hero instead of trying to throw a wide net with anthology titles. When DC saw how well a book meant as a one-shot sold, it commissioned a 2nd issue. And a 3rd. And they started commissioning the creation of more heroes. And other publishers did the same. And I think reprinting the first 4 Action stories was pure marketing genius. Everyone who had missed those early Action stories the year before now had the chance to catch up and read the Superman origin tale, creating a second jumping on point for new fans. Obviously, I love Superman 1 and think it's a great book. And I love Cap 1 too. But please don't tear down Superman 1 without thinking it through a little more. That book did a lot for our hobby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne-Tec Posted July 22, 2014 Author Share Posted July 22, 2014 (edited) RedFury, Love the feedback and passion bro. Awesome sig-line too! Superman #1 should never be referred to as just "a collection of reprints" -- and students of history know that. I touched on this subject over four years ago here on the boards. You shouldn't overlook the fact that it's mostly unoriginal content, but at the same time, it is the 1st app. of the Kents, it completes the first story of Action #1 and expands on Superman's scientific origin. Those aspects were new material -- even though it's rarely brought up. I'm a young collector who some old-school collecting characteristics. To me, it is important that Superman #1 was the first book devoted to one superhero. When comparing the importance of that to the first app. of another major character, or the real life historical connections found in Cap #1 -- apples and oranges can certainly apply. At the end of the day, it's going to come down to each person's personal preferences. People should realize, in more detail, why Superman #1 was so important. But at the same time, I believe that there is a lot in respects to Cap #1 that people have overlooked until recently. Edited July 22, 2014 by Wayne-Tec Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eman13 Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 I was surprised at how well cap does internationally. If the roles were reversed, how many americans would read about or watch a movie about "Captain Chile"? The historical ties I think made him an international icon, but that is my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronty Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 Totally. I don't get other countries (except perhaps those very closely allied with US) being anything but turned off by "captain America." I guess he gets a pass as a result of being created in the 40s? I would expect more resistance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne-Tec Posted July 22, 2014 Author Share Posted July 22, 2014 Totally. I don't get other countries (except perhaps those very closely allied with US) being anything but turned off by "captain America." I guess he gets a pass as a result of being created in the 40s? I would expect more resistance Captain America was created during a time in which the world was experiencing a horrific global conflict. Many countries and many people were victim's of Hitler's regime. Human beings can relate to and be supportive of a character who stands in opposition of that -- regardless of the colors he wears. There's also a difference between not relating on the same level because the character represents a different country than yours, and being "turned off." As an American, I can relate more to Captain America -- but if there was a Captain Chile (very similar flag and colors BTW, not that that's relevant) and he stood up to a great global evil and represented the same ideals -- I'd embrace that character as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago Boy Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 Its been my understanding that pop culture Americana style seems to reign supreme throughout the world. Most of the Superheroes live full time in the US anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgallo Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 I think a lot of people forget that before Superman 1, there were NO super-hero titles AT ALL. There were a few super-heroes appearing in anthology titles, mixed in with other adventure stories, but no standalone titles. Superman 1 was the first super-hero in his own title. It sold a million copies (in 3 printings) and proved not only that super-heroes were viable on their own, but the future of the medium. To say "it's just a bunch of reprints" does not place the book in it's proper historical context. It was a paradigm shift for the industry. It proved that super-heroes sold big time. A publisher was finally willing to bet on a super-hero instead of trying to throw a wide net with anthology titles. When DC saw how well a book meant as a one-shot sold, it commissioned a 2nd issue. And a 3rd. And they started commissioning the creation of more heroes. And other publishers did the same. And I think reprinting the first 4 Action stories was pure marketing genius. Everyone who had missed those early Action stories the year before now had the chance to catch up and read the Superman origin tale, creating a second jumping on point for new fans. Obviously, I love Superman 1 and think it's a great book. And I love Cap 1 too. But please don't tear down Superman 1 without thinking it through a little more. That book did a lot for our hobby. Yea Yea I know all this :-P The historical significance of Marvel Comics #1 doesn't seem to be helping that book at all. You can say it launched the Marvel universe and without it there is no Cap 1. Regardless this has been talked about at length in other threads. I realize the importance of Superman #1 I just don't value it as high as others and I wonder how much of the mystic around it is completely fulled by the rarity factor.. James G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superman2006 Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 IN addition to the reasons that he states, there is also the added desirability of owning the first appearance of Captain America over an issue '1' of a character that had already been out for a bit. None of the other big-time GA books have the combination Cap #1 has: *No.1 issue of a series devoted to that specific superhero. *First appearance of a classic superhero. *Origin of a classic superhero. *First appearance of that superhero's arch nemesis (Red Skull). *Classic cover. *Impressive cover artistically/visually. Action #1 -- an anthology series, one hero story, classic but artistically simple cover. Tec #27 -- an anthology series, one hero story, no origin whatsoever. Superman #1 -- no 1st app., mostly reprinted material, no notable villains. Batman #1 -- not the 1st app., of the title character. Marvel #1 -- No top-tier characters, no noteworthy villains. In those respects, no other GA book is in Cap #1's league. And the combination of factors listed above are, to me, much more than "Oh yeah, that's neat" kind of stuff. You say that in "those respects, no other GA book is in Cap #1's league", and that may be true based on the criteria that you defined, however based on the criteria I might define the same could be said about Action #1... I don't usually put this much thought into ranking the top books based on personal desirability, but here goes... Although I actually perform a calculation, I suppose that I typically implicitly look at the following criteria, in the order shown, when ranking the desirability of the best of the best Superhero books: My highest weighted criteria: (1) First Appearance of 1st Tier Superhero (2) Cover Related: 1st cover appearance of Superhero &/or Classic Cover (3) 1st time origin story told? Bonus points if the book has this stuff: (4) Arch Nemesis included? (5) Is it a #1 issue of a book that has one or more solo stories in every issue for the Superhero in question; a bit of a bonus if the entire book is devoted to the Superhero in question (6) Other noteworthy factors not covered above I suppose I then implicitly assign ratings to each of the criterion above and then multiply those rankings by the applicable criteria weighting in order to arrive at the overall ranking of a given book Based on the criteria I have identified above: Action #1 -- Meets all of my criteria above and ranks high in each category IMO (bonus points for being a #1 issue and for being the 1st major ongoing superhero book) Tec #27 -- No origin story, and while Bats appears on the cover, the cover isn't quite as classic as some of the others IMO. Very high ranking for criterion #1 / no noteworthy bonus points. Superman #1 -- Not Supes first appearance and not the 1st origin story (although it is expanded on a bit). Bonus points for being a #1 issue and for being the first book devoted entirely to a superhero. Batman #1 -- Not Bats first appearance, nor is it the first time his origin is told (although it does have a very early / very classic reprint). Borderline classic cover IMO (personally I'm not a big fan of Robin on the cover ). Big time bonus points for Joker first appearance and some more bonus points for being the #1 issue of the first book devoted to Batman. Marvel #1 -- 1st newsstand appearance / origin of Subby and 1st Human Torch, but neither are what I would call 1st tier superheros. Classic cover with the Torch but no Subby. Bonus points for being Marvel #1. Cap #1 -- 1st appearance and origin of Cap, and while his stock has certainly gone up of late, I still wouldn't put him in the same category as Batman or Superman. Classic cover. Bonus points for being a #1 issue devoted to Cap and for the 1st appearance of the Red Skull. If I were to actually work through the calcs (assigning weights to various criteria and ranking each book against each criterion, and then adding up total score for each book), based on my weightings / rankings, I believe I would probably end up with the following rankings: Action #1 Tec #27 Cap #1 I'm sure everyone else has other criteria that they look at, and assign different weightings to their criteria than I do, if they were to take the time to try to explain how they personally rank various books... P.S. Having said all that, I guess I don't always follow my own "rules" as my formulae above would probably rank All-Star #8 above Sensation #1, however I actually prefer Sensation #1 over All-Star #8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ciorac Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 IN addition to the reasons that he states, there is also the added desirability of owning the first appearance of Captain America over an issue '1' of a character that had already been out for a bit. None of the other big-time GA books have the combination Cap #1 has: *No.1 issue of a series devoted to that specific superhero. *First appearance of a classic superhero. *Origin of a classic superhero. *First appearance of that superhero's arch nemesis (Red Skull). *Classic cover. *Impressive cover artistically/visually. Action #1 -- an anthology series, one hero story, classic but artistically simple cover. Tec #27 -- an anthology series, one hero story, no origin whatsoever. Superman #1 -- no 1st app., mostly reprinted material, no notable villains. Batman #1 -- not the 1st app., of the title character. Marvel #1 -- No top-tier characters, no noteworthy villains. In those respects, no other GA book is in Cap #1's league. And the combination of factors listed above are, to me, much more than "Oh yeah, that's neat" kind of stuff. You say that in "those respects, no other GA book is in Cap #1's league", and that may be true based on the criteria that you defined, however based on the criteria I might define the same could be said about Action #1... I don't usually put this much thought into ranking the top books based on personal desirability, but here goes... Although I actually perform a calculation, I suppose that I typically implicitly look at the following criteria, in the order shown, when ranking the desirability of the best of the best Superhero books: My highest weighted criteria: (1) First Appearance of 1st Tier Superhero (2) Cover Related: 1st cover appearance of Superhero &/or Classic Cover (3) 1st time origin story told? Bonus points if the book has this stuff: (4) Arch Nemesis included? (5) Is it a #1 issue of a book that has one or more solo stories in every issue for the Superhero in question; a bit of a bonus if the entire book is devoted to the Superhero in question (6) Other noteworthy factors not covered above I suppose I then implicitly assign ratings to each of the criterion above and then multiply those rankings by the applicable criteria weighting in order to arrive at the overall ranking of a given book Based on the criteria I have identified above: Action #1 -- Meets all of my criteria above and ranks high in each category IMO (bonus points for being a #1 issue and for being the 1st major ongoing superhero book) Tec #27 -- No origin story, and while Bats appears on the cover, the cover isn't quite as classic as some of the others IMO. Very high ranking for criterion #1 / no noteworthy bonus points. Superman #1 -- Not Supes first appearance and not the 1st origin story (although it is expanded on a bit). Bonus points for being a #1 issue and for being the first book devoted entirely to a superhero. Batman #1 -- Not Bats first appearance, nor is it the first time his origin is told (although it does have a very early / very classic reprint). Borderline classic cover IMO (personally I'm not a big fan of Robin on the cover ). Big time bonus points for Joker first appearance and some more bonus points for being the #1 issue of the first book devoted to Batman. Marvel #1 -- 1st newsstand appearance / origin of Subby and 1st Human Torch, but neither are what I would call 1st tier superheros. Classic cover with the Torch but no Subby. Bonus points for being Marvel #1. Cap #1 -- 1st appearance and origin of Cap, and while his stock has certainly gone up of late, I still wouldn't put him in the same category as Batman or Superman. Classic cover. Bonus points for being a #1 issue devoted to Cap and for the 1st appearance of the Red Skull. If I were to actually work through the calcs (assigning weights to various criteria and ranking each book against each criterion, and then adding up total score for each book), based on my weightings / rankings, I believe I would probably end up with the following rankings: Action #1 Tec #27 Cap #1 I'm sure everyone else has other criteria that they look at, and assign different weightings to their criteria than I do, if they were to take the time to try to explain how they personally rank various books... P.S. Having said all that, I guess I don't always follow my own "rules" as my formulae above would probably rank All-Star #8 above Sensation #1, however I actually prefer Sensation #1 over All-Star #8 I like Sensation #1 over All Star #8 as well, I also like Wonder Woman #1 over All Star #8. But Cap is not a first tier character. So putting him at #3 I can't get on board with Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superman2006 Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 I hear you, Ciroac, and you make a valid point, but given the total package of Cap #1, I personally have to give it a slight bump over Batman #1 (although Batman #1 isn't far behind, given that Batman is tied for my favorite superhero, and the Joker is my favorite villain)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ciorac Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 I hear you, Ciroac, and you make a valid point, but given the total package of Cap #1, I personally have to give it a slight bump over Batman #1 (although Batman #1 isn't far behind, given that Batman is tied for my favorite superhero, and the Joker is my favorite villain)... I love Cap #1 and need one, but it isn't in Batman #1's league. Let alone other major books of the golden age. Price be damned. That is artificial and transitory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moetown Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 (edited) IN addition to the reasons that he states, there is also the added desirability of owning the first appearance of Captain America over an issue '1' of a character that had already been out for a bit. None of the other big-time GA books have the combination Cap #1 has: *No.1 issue of a series devoted to that specific superhero. *First appearance of a classic superhero. *Origin of a classic superhero. *First appearance of that superhero's arch nemesis (Red Skull). *Classic cover. *Impressive cover artistically/visually. Action #1 -- an anthology series, one hero story, classic but artistically simple cover. Tec #27 -- an anthology series, one hero story, no origin whatsoever. Superman #1 -- no 1st app., mostly reprinted material, no notable villains. Batman #1 -- not the 1st app., of the title character. Marvel #1 -- No top-tier characters, no noteworthy villains. In those respects, no other GA book is in Cap #1's league. And the combination of factors listed above are, to me, much more than "Oh yeah, that's neat" kind of stuff. You say that in "those respects, no other GA book is in Cap #1's league", and that may be true based on the criteria that you defined, however based on the criteria I might define the same could be said about Action #1... I don't usually put this much thought into ranking the top books based on personal desirability, but here goes... Although I actually perform a calculation, I suppose that I typically implicitly look at the following criteria, in the order shown, when ranking the desirability of the best of the best Superhero books: My highest weighted criteria: (1) First Appearance of 1st Tier Superhero (2) Cover Related: 1st cover appearance of Superhero &/or Classic Cover (3) 1st time origin story told? Bonus points if the book has this stuff: (4) Arch Nemesis included? (5) Is it a #1 issue of a book that has one or more solo stories in every issue for the Superhero in question; a bit of a bonus if the entire book is devoted to the Superhero in question (6) Other noteworthy factors not covered above I suppose I then implicitly assign ratings to each of the criterion above and then multiply those rankings by the applicable criteria weighting in order to arrive at the overall ranking of a given book Based on the criteria I have identified above: Action #1 -- Meets all of my criteria above and ranks high in each category IMO (bonus points for being a #1 issue and for being the 1st major ongoing superhero book) Tec #27 -- No origin story, and while Bats appears on the cover, the cover isn't quite as classic as some of the others IMO. Very high ranking for criterion #1 / no noteworthy bonus points. Superman #1 -- Not Supes first appearance and not the 1st origin story (although it is expanded on a bit). Bonus points for being a #1 issue and for being the first book devoted entirely to a superhero. Batman #1 -- Not Bats first appearance, nor is it the first time his origin is told (although it does have a very early / very classic reprint). Borderline classic cover IMO (personally I'm not a big fan of Robin on the cover ). Big time bonus points for Joker first appearance and some more bonus points for being the #1 issue of the first book devoted to Batman. Marvel #1 -- 1st newsstand appearance / origin of Subby and 1st Human Torch, but neither are what I would call 1st tier superheros. Classic cover with the Torch but no Subby. Bonus points for being Marvel #1. Cap #1 -- 1st appearance and origin of Cap, and while his stock has certainly gone up of late, I still wouldn't put him in the same category as Batman or Superman. Classic cover. Bonus points for being a #1 issue devoted to Cap and for the 1st appearance of the Red Skull. If I were to actually work through the calcs (assigning weights to various criteria and ranking each book against each criterion, and then adding up total score for each book), based on my weightings / rankings, I believe I would probably end up with the following rankings: Action #1 Tec #27 Cap #1 I'm sure everyone else has other criteria that they look at, and assign different weightings to their criteria than I do, if they were to take the time to try to explain how they personally rank various books... P.S. Having said all that, I guess I don't always follow my own "rules" as my formulae above would probably rank All-Star #8 above Sensation #1, however I actually prefer Sensation #1 over All-Star #8 I like Sensation #1 over All Star #8 as well, I also like Wonder Woman #1 over All Star #8. But Cap is not a first tier character. So putting him at #3 I can't get on board with BLASPHEMY I say!!!! (Hi Bill ) Edited July 23, 2014 by Moetown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne-Tec Posted July 23, 2014 Author Share Posted July 23, 2014 IN addition to the reasons that he states, there is also the added desirability of owning the first appearance of Captain America over an issue '1' of a character that had already been out for a bit. None of the other big-time GA books have the combination Cap #1 has: *No.1 issue of a series devoted to that specific superhero. *First appearance of a classic superhero. *Origin of a classic superhero. *First appearance of that superhero's arch nemesis (Red Skull). *Classic cover. *Impressive cover artistically/visually. Action #1 -- an anthology series, one hero story, classic but artistically simple cover. Tec #27 -- an anthology series, one hero story, no origin whatsoever. Superman #1 -- no 1st app., mostly reprinted material, no notable villains. Batman #1 -- not the 1st app., of the title character. Marvel #1 -- No top-tier characters, no noteworthy villains. In those respects, no other GA book is in Cap #1's league. And the combination of factors listed above are, to me, much more than "Oh yeah, that's neat" kind of stuff. You say that in "those respects, no other GA book is in Cap #1's league", and that may be true based on the criteria that you defined, however based on the criteria I might define the same could be said about Action #1... I don't usually put this much thought into ranking the top books based on personal desirability, but here goes... Although I actually perform a calculation, I suppose that I typically implicitly look at the following criteria, in the order shown, when ranking the desirability of the best of the best Superhero books: My highest weighted criteria: (1) First Appearance of 1st Tier Superhero (2) Cover Related: 1st cover appearance of Superhero &/or Classic Cover (3) 1st time origin story told? Bonus points if the book has this stuff: (4) Arch Nemesis included? (5) Is it a #1 issue of a book that has one or more solo stories in every issue for the Superhero in question; a bit of a bonus if the entire book is devoted to the Superhero in question (6) Other noteworthy factors not covered above I suppose I then implicitly assign ratings to each of the criterion above and then multiply those rankings by the applicable criteria weighting in order to arrive at the overall ranking of a given book Based on the criteria I have identified above: Action #1 -- Meets all of my criteria above and ranks high in each category IMO (bonus points for being a #1 issue and for being the 1st major ongoing superhero book) Tec #27 -- No origin story, and while Bats appears on the cover, the cover isn't quite as classic as some of the others IMO. Very high ranking for criterion #1 / no noteworthy bonus points. Superman #1 -- Not Supes first appearance and not the 1st origin story (although it is expanded on a bit). Bonus points for being a #1 issue and for being the first book devoted entirely to a superhero. Batman #1 -- Not Bats first appearance, nor is it the first time his origin is told (although it does have a very early / very classic reprint). Borderline classic cover IMO (personally I'm not a big fan of Robin on the cover ). Big time bonus points for Joker first appearance and some more bonus points for being the #1 issue of the first book devoted to Batman. Marvel #1 -- 1st newsstand appearance / origin of Subby and 1st Human Torch, but neither are what I would call 1st tier superheros. Classic cover with the Torch but no Subby. Bonus points for being Marvel #1. Cap #1 -- 1st appearance and origin of Cap, and while his stock has certainly gone up of late, I still wouldn't put him in the same category as Batman or Superman. Classic cover. Bonus points for being a #1 issue devoted to Cap and for the 1st appearance of the Red Skull. If I were to actually work through the calcs (assigning weights to various criteria and ranking each book against each criterion, and then adding up total score for each book), based on my weightings / rankings, I believe I would probably end up with the following rankings: Action #1 Tec #27 Cap #1 I'm sure everyone else has other criteria that they look at, and assign different weightings to their criteria than I do, if they were to take the time to try to explain how they personally rank various books... P.S. Having said all that, I guess I don't always follow my own "rules" as my formulae above would probably rank All-Star #8 above Sensation #1, however I actually prefer Sensation #1 over All-Star #8 I like Sensation #1 over All Star #8 as well, I also like Wonder Woman #1 over All Star #8. But Cap is not a first tier character. So putting him at #3 I can't get on board with BLASPHEMY I say!!!! (Hi Bill ) On a global box office scale, Cap currently is a top tier character. The Winter Soldier has out- grossed both Man of Steel and Amazing Spider-Man 2 worldwide. So if Cap isn't currently a top tier character, neither are Superman or Spider-Man (which I don't agree with). In this day and age, movies approaching the $1,000,000,000 are the highest measures of success. Superman is also suffering on the newsstands. Over the decades, cumulatively, there is no doubt that Superman is a top tier character. But in today's world, Cap is absolutely a top tier character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ciorac Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 IN addition to the reasons that he states, there is also the added desirability of owning the first appearance of Captain America over an issue '1' of a character that had already been out for a bit. None of the other big-time GA books have the combination Cap #1 has: *No.1 issue of a series devoted to that specific superhero. *First appearance of a classic superhero. *Origin of a classic superhero. *First appearance of that superhero's arch nemesis (Red Skull). *Classic cover. *Impressive cover artistically/visually. Action #1 -- an anthology series, one hero story, classic but artistically simple cover. Tec #27 -- an anthology series, one hero story, no origin whatsoever. Superman #1 -- no 1st app., mostly reprinted material, no notable villains. Batman #1 -- not the 1st app., of the title character. Marvel #1 -- No top-tier characters, no noteworthy villains. In those respects, no other GA book is in Cap #1's league. And the combination of factors listed above are, to me, much more than "Oh yeah, that's neat" kind of stuff. You say that in "those respects, no other GA book is in Cap #1's league", and that may be true based on the criteria that you defined, however based on the criteria I might define the same could be said about Action #1... I don't usually put this much thought into ranking the top books based on personal desirability, but here goes... Although I actually perform a calculation, I suppose that I typically implicitly look at the following criteria, in the order shown, when ranking the desirability of the best of the best Superhero books: My highest weighted criteria: (1) First Appearance of 1st Tier Superhero (2) Cover Related: 1st cover appearance of Superhero &/or Classic Cover (3) 1st time origin story told? Bonus points if the book has this stuff: (4) Arch Nemesis included? (5) Is it a #1 issue of a book that has one or more solo stories in every issue for the Superhero in question; a bit of a bonus if the entire book is devoted to the Superhero in question (6) Other noteworthy factors not covered above I suppose I then implicitly assign ratings to each of the criterion above and then multiply those rankings by the applicable criteria weighting in order to arrive at the overall ranking of a given book Based on the criteria I have identified above: Action #1 -- Meets all of my criteria above and ranks high in each category IMO (bonus points for being a #1 issue and for being the 1st major ongoing superhero book) Tec #27 -- No origin story, and while Bats appears on the cover, the cover isn't quite as classic as some of the others IMO. Very high ranking for criterion #1 / no noteworthy bonus points. Superman #1 -- Not Supes first appearance and not the 1st origin story (although it is expanded on a bit). Bonus points for being a #1 issue and for being the first book devoted entirely to a superhero. Batman #1 -- Not Bats first appearance, nor is it the first time his origin is told (although it does have a very early / very classic reprint). Borderline classic cover IMO (personally I'm not a big fan of Robin on the cover ). Big time bonus points for Joker first appearance and some more bonus points for being the #1 issue of the first book devoted to Batman. Marvel #1 -- 1st newsstand appearance / origin of Subby and 1st Human Torch, but neither are what I would call 1st tier superheros. Classic cover with the Torch but no Subby. Bonus points for being Marvel #1. Cap #1 -- 1st appearance and origin of Cap, and while his stock has certainly gone up of late, I still wouldn't put him in the same category as Batman or Superman. Classic cover. Bonus points for being a #1 issue devoted to Cap and for the 1st appearance of the Red Skull. If I were to actually work through the calcs (assigning weights to various criteria and ranking each book against each criterion, and then adding up total score for each book), based on my weightings / rankings, I believe I would probably end up with the following rankings: Action #1 Tec #27 Cap #1 I'm sure everyone else has other criteria that they look at, and assign different weightings to their criteria than I do, if they were to take the time to try to explain how they personally rank various books... P.S. Having said all that, I guess I don't always follow my own "rules" as my formulae above would probably rank All-Star #8 above Sensation #1, however I actually prefer Sensation #1 over All-Star #8 I like Sensation #1 over All Star #8 as well, I also like Wonder Woman #1 over All Star #8. But Cap is not a first tier character. So putting him at #3 I can't get on board with BLASPHEMY I say!!!! (Hi Bill ) On a global box office scale, Cap currently is a top tier character. The Winter Soldier has out- grossed both Man of Steel and Amazing Spider-Man 2 worldwide. So if Cap isn't currently a top tier character, neither are Superman or Spider-Man (which I don't agree with). In this day and age, movies approaching the $1,000,000,000 are the highest measures of success. Superman is also suffering on the newsstands. Over the decades, cumulatively, there is no doubt that Superman is a top tier character. But in today's world, Cap is absolutely a top tier character. Using that logic, I could negotiate a license to produce a comic book about Avatar and suddenly the first appearance would be as relevant as Captain America's first appearance? Or Superman's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago Boy Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 Captain America's shield is everywhere in this country these days. Socks, backpacks, shirts, etc. I see adults and five year olds wearing the same Cap shirts . He has catapulted into a top tier character IMO. There is now the name recognition alone. If you ask any non comic fan to come up with 5 super heroes they may not name Cap but if you ask them if they heard of him after the fact I think you would get a resounding "yes". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne-Tec Posted July 23, 2014 Author Share Posted July 23, 2014 IN addition to the reasons that he states, there is also the added desirability of owning the first appearance of Captain America over an issue '1' of a character that had already been out for a bit. None of the other big-time GA books have the combination Cap #1 has: *No.1 issue of a series devoted to that specific superhero. *First appearance of a classic superhero. *Origin of a classic superhero. *First appearance of that superhero's arch nemesis (Red Skull). *Classic cover. *Impressive cover artistically/visually. Action #1 -- an anthology series, one hero story, classic but artistically simple cover. Tec #27 -- an anthology series, one hero story, no origin whatsoever. Superman #1 -- no 1st app., mostly reprinted material, no notable villains. Batman #1 -- not the 1st app., of the title character. Marvel #1 -- No top-tier characters, no noteworthy villains. In those respects, no other GA book is in Cap #1's league. And the combination of factors listed above are, to me, much more than "Oh yeah, that's neat" kind of stuff. You say that in "those respects, no other GA book is in Cap #1's league", and that may be true based on the criteria that you defined, however based on the criteria I might define the same could be said about Action #1... I don't usually put this much thought into ranking the top books based on personal desirability, but here goes... Although I actually perform a calculation, I suppose that I typically implicitly look at the following criteria, in the order shown, when ranking the desirability of the best of the best Superhero books: My highest weighted criteria: (1) First Appearance of 1st Tier Superhero (2) Cover Related: 1st cover appearance of Superhero &/or Classic Cover (3) 1st time origin story told? Bonus points if the book has this stuff: (4) Arch Nemesis included? (5) Is it a #1 issue of a book that has one or more solo stories in every issue for the Superhero in question; a bit of a bonus if the entire book is devoted to the Superhero in question (6) Other noteworthy factors not covered above I suppose I then implicitly assign ratings to each of the criterion above and then multiply those rankings by the applicable criteria weighting in order to arrive at the overall ranking of a given book Based on the criteria I have identified above: Action #1 -- Meets all of my criteria above and ranks high in each category IMO (bonus points for being a #1 issue and for being the 1st major ongoing superhero book) Tec #27 -- No origin story, and while Bats appears on the cover, the cover isn't quite as classic as some of the others IMO. Very high ranking for criterion #1 / no noteworthy bonus points. Superman #1 -- Not Supes first appearance and not the 1st origin story (although it is expanded on a bit). Bonus points for being a #1 issue and for being the first book devoted entirely to a superhero. Batman #1 -- Not Bats first appearance, nor is it the first time his origin is told (although it does have a very early / very classic reprint). Borderline classic cover IMO (personally I'm not a big fan of Robin on the cover ). Big time bonus points for Joker first appearance and some more bonus points for being the #1 issue of the first book devoted to Batman. Marvel #1 -- 1st newsstand appearance / origin of Subby and 1st Human Torch, but neither are what I would call 1st tier superheros. Classic cover with the Torch but no Subby. Bonus points for being Marvel #1. Cap #1 -- 1st appearance and origin of Cap, and while his stock has certainly gone up of late, I still wouldn't put him in the same category as Batman or Superman. Classic cover. Bonus points for being a #1 issue devoted to Cap and for the 1st appearance of the Red Skull. If I were to actually work through the calcs (assigning weights to various criteria and ranking each book against each criterion, and then adding up total score for each book), based on my weightings / rankings, I believe I would probably end up with the following rankings: Action #1 Tec #27 Cap #1 I'm sure everyone else has other criteria that they look at, and assign different weightings to their criteria than I do, if they were to take the time to try to explain how they personally rank various books... P.S. Having said all that, I guess I don't always follow my own "rules" as my formulae above would probably rank All-Star #8 above Sensation #1, however I actually prefer Sensation #1 over All-Star #8 I like Sensation #1 over All Star #8 as well, I also like Wonder Woman #1 over All Star #8. But Cap is not a first tier character. So putting him at #3 I can't get on board with BLASPHEMY I say!!!! (Hi Bill ) On a global box office scale, Cap currently is a top tier character. The Winter Soldier has out- grossed both Man of Steel and Amazing Spider-Man 2 worldwide. So if Cap isn't currently a top tier character, neither are Superman or Spider-Man (which I don't agree with). In this day and age, movies approaching the $1,000,000,000 are the highest measures of success. Superman is also suffering on the newsstands. Over the decades, cumulatively, there is no doubt that Superman is a top tier character. But in today's world, Cap is absolutely a top tier character. Using that logic, I could negotiate a license to produce a comic book about Avatar and suddenly the first appearance would be as relevant as Captain America's first appearance? Or Superman's? It's not based purely on box office performance, but that may be the largest measure. I am admittedly unfamiliar with Avatar, for the most part, so it's tough for me to comment. But when Avatar came out, it was extremely relevant and a top tier film. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
