Cat-Man_America Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 IMO, Cap #1 has only begun to scrape the surface of its potential. It's long been recognized for its "classic cover", and as a very desirable book, but it's really so much more. Unlike any other GA book that I can think of, Cap #1 has a real word connection that makes it undeniably unique. Not only was it Simon and Kirby's first breakthrough creation (akin to FF #1 being Stan Lee's first breakthrough creation), but it was a real world response to the evils of Nazism. Simon and Kirby were both Jewish and Cap #1 was a political, personal statement to show their desire for the U.S. to enter WWII. Lex Luthor, the Joker, Two-Face -- they're all great villains of fiction. But the real world of the early 1940's was facing a real life threat, a real life evil unlike anything ever seen in modern history. Captain America's origin was tied in, storyline-wise, as a direct response to that real world threat. He was America's answer -- physically, emotionally and symbolically. That real world relevance puts the character on a different level than his contemporaries of the time. Because of this, Captain America can be appreciated by both comic book fans and students of history alike. The voice and vision of the American man was captured in Cap #1. Beyond that, Cap #1 has ascended to claim the spot as the hobby's most valuable "Marvel" comic book. And as I've stated before, that's very significant to the many collectors who was "Marvel zombies" and don't really care for DC. To them, Action #1 and Tec #27 don't hold the same appeal -- they want the very best of what their universe has to offer. The fact that Marvel has gone on to become the industry's No. 1 company is highly significant. Because we're not talking about Cap #1 as the top book of a cult company -- we're talking about the top book, born from THE top company. We've seen the T206 Honus Wagner card (a player with little modern day relevance, comparatively speaking) break the $2,000,000 mark. We've seen stamps sell for millions of dollars. When you consider the very direct, very relevant connections Captain America has to modern day forms of entertainment, and the vast room comic books still have to grow in a world record sense -- I don't think it's a stretch at all to think that a CGC 9.8 Cap #1 could be a $2,000,000 book. Before the $1,000,000 sale of the CGC 8.0 Action #1, the perception of how valuable a comic book could be was vastly different. In a short period of time, that changed tremendously. Due to factors of both nostalgia and modern-relevance, comic books are very unique. And there's a plethora of reasons to think that there's still a lot of room for significant growth. Cap 1 will not outpace Action 1 or Tec 27 but it could outpace Supe 1. Holding it back is the fact that it's more commonly found than the others. But it's a first appearance as well as a #1, and it's got a real history component, as the man says, which the others do not have. The cover can be appreciated on levels beyond that of any other golden age key. If the #1 itself is going beyond the reach of many, then maybe consider the books that contained ads for Cap 1 which were on the stands before Cap 1 itself. At least one of those ads features a prelim image of cap before the wings were added to his head. And these books can be found pretty cheap There may be variations in the character's appearance in early ads dependent upon the artist, but according to Joe Simon Cap was sold to Goodman complete, awhile before any ads would've been created. As the story goes, Goodman apparently wanted a patriotic character to compete with MLJ's Shield and asked if Joe had any ideas. As luck would have it, Simon had a book on the shelf ready that he and Jack Kirby had recently developed to pitch. Simon used this opportunity to negotiate an editorship agreement with Goodman. As a side note, when the first issue came out there was a hastily called meeting with Goodman and Simon requested by MLJ with their attorneys present over Cap's similarity to The Shield. To avoid a lawsuit, a compromise was worked out that involved changing Cap's shield design to round in the second issue. Ironically perhaps, that negotiated change in Cap's shield probably contributed to the character's appeal, success and longevity. BTW, if you look at the timing, Dusty was introduced in PEP #11 perhaps inspiring Cap's sidekick Bucky as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knightsofold Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 Early Superman Action covers will never have a problem selling. I love Timelys first but I recognize the historical significance and prestige of Early Superman and Batman Actions and Detectives. Most young collectors are priced out of these early Superman comics. But a certain % rich youngsters will always buy what makes them feel prestigious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knightsofold Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 IMO, Cap #1 has only begun to scrape the surface of its potential. BTW, if you look at the timing, Dusty was introduced in PEP #11 perhaps inspiring Cap's sidekick Bucky as well. I thought Bucky was added because of the appeal of Batman's Robin, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne-Tec Posted July 19, 2014 Author Share Posted July 19, 2014 Early Superman Action covers will never have a problem selling. I love Timelys first but I recognize the historical significance and prestige of Early Superman and Batman Actions and Detectives. Most young collectors are priced out of these early Superman comics. But a certain % rich youngsters will always buy what makes them feel prestigious. Superman is more iconic than he is popular, in respects to present day audiences (overall). The character's rich history will keep the prices of his most desirable issues strong. I'm not suggesting that Superman/Action books will struggle, I'm simply suggesting that certain books will face some stiff competition as younger generations rise to greater spending power and have to decide which book is more desirable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.A.tor Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Cap 1 will not move past superman 1. While waynetec statements make sense and are valid, folks playing in that end of the pool generally (not all of course) don't care as much about that as they do the "trophy". The rareness factor drives the 6 fig + pricing. That factor alone (rarity) will keep supes above cap 1 price wise Another factor to consider, and it's a big one, is that (and correct me if I'm mistaken) the majority of Superman #1 owners are from an older generation, one that grew up loving Superman. Collectors who are presently in their 20's-30's don't have the same positive exposure to the character as older generations. But that younger generation has also pushed the Marvel Universe into another stratosphere. In the history of our hobby, most Superman #1 owners have come from generations where Superman was beloved. Things have obviously changed drastically over the past 25 years. Comic collecting is extremely nostalgia-driven, so it's not unreasonable to expect that when the younger generations rise to greater spending power, they may be more inclined to invest great sums of money into characters they love, as opposed to characters like Superman, who unfortunately isn't even remarkably liked by many young collectors. I wouldn't agree with this. My guess is the % of age vs ownership is probably about the same. There are way less copies of supes 1 in the market (unrestored) so perception is probably not all that accurate relative to ownership Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne-Tec Posted July 20, 2014 Author Share Posted July 20, 2014 (edited) I wouldn't agree with this. My guess is the % of age vs ownership is probably about the same. There are way less copies of supes 1 in the market (unrestored) so perception is probably not all that accurate relative to ownership Rick, are you saying that you feel there to be just as many Superman #1 owners in their 20's-30's as there are in their 40's-60's? Because it is my belief that the majority of Superman #1 owners are likely to be in their 40's or older. Collectors born after Burton's Batman in 1989 grew up in a different era entirely vs. those who grew up in the 1930's-1970's. Superman's popularity has not been the same since, and I'm speaking as a collector in his mid-20's who loves the character much, much more than those who I grew up with. Prior generations have a lot more incentive to want a Superman #1. It's easier to cherish that "trophy" when it features a character you love. When talking about the next generation of collectors, I think it's going to be a lot harder when the book features a character you don't even like that much. "Trophy" + "Nostalgic love" = amazing results "Trophy" + "lack of nostalgic connection & interest in the character" = less amazing results At the very least, we will see how a coming generation of collectors treats books featuring a character that many of them didn't even like. That's not a blanket statement as there will always be collectors like myself who love Superman, and who understand that Superman #1 is much more than just a trophy book. But Cap #1 is in rarified, exclusive air as the top book from the undisputed top company. The Winter Soldier--which still has room for growth as it's only been about three months since its release-- has already blown the highly anticipated Man of Steel out of the water in the box office to the tune of $712,000,000 to $668,000,000. I see enough factors in play here to, at the least, shorten the gap between Superman #1 and Cap #1. I don't subscribe to certainty. 40 years ago, no one would have fathomed that Marvel Comics #1 would be on the verge of being pushed out of the Top-10 most valuable Golden Age books. A lot has changed over the decades, and I don't think the possibility bluechip proposed in respects to Cap #1 vs. Superman #1 is out of line. Edited July 20, 2014 by Wayne-Tec Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.A.tor Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Poll boardies that own both or either. That is a good sample group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timely Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 I wouldn't agree with this. My guess is the % of age vs ownership is probably about the same. There are way less copies of supes 1 in the market (unrestored) so perception is probably not all that accurate relative to ownership Rick, are you saying that you feel there to be just as many Superman #1 owners in their 20's-30's as there are in their 40's-60's? Because it is my belief that the majority of Superman #1 owners are likely to be in their 40's or older. Collectors born after Burton's Batman in 1989 grew up in a different era entirely vs. those who grew up in the 1930's-1970's. Superman's popularity has not been the same since, and I'm speaking as a collector in his mid-20's who loves the character much, much more than those who I grew up with. Prior generations have a lot more incentive to want a Superman #1. It's easier to cherish that "trophy" when it features a character you love. When talking about the next generation of collectors, I think it's going to be a lot harder when the book features a character you don't even like that much. "Trophy" + "Nostalgic love" = amazing results "Trophy" + "lack of nostalgic connection & interest in the character" = less amazing results At the very least, we will see how a coming generation of collectors treats books featuring a character that many of them didn't even like. That's not a blanket statement as there will always be collectors like myself who love Superman, and who understand that Superman #1 is much more than just a trophy book. But Cap #1 is in rarified, exclusive air as the top book from the undisputed top company. The Winter Soldier--which still has room for growth as it's only been about three months since its release-- has already blown the highly anticipated Man of Steel out of the water in the box office to the tune of $712,000,000 to $668,000,000. I see enough factors in play here to, at the least, shorten the gap between Superman #1 and Cap #1. I don't subscribe to certainty. 40 years ago, no one would have fathomed that Marvel Comics #1 would be on the verge of being pushed out of the Top-10 most valuable Golden Age books. A lot has changed over the decades, and I don't think the possibility bluechip proposed in respects to Cap #1 vs. Superman #1 is out of line. It is really unlikely there are as many owners of Superman #1 who are under the age of 30, as many collectors under age 30 just don't have the financial ability to buy and keep such an expensive book. Also, many collectors in their 60's probably bought the Superman #1 30 years ago when it was FAR more affordable. It is not popularity that keeps people from owning a Superman #1, it's the cost! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primetime Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Poll boardies that own both or either. That is a good sample group. I have owned three Cap 1s in my time and no copies of Supe 1. It's always been a cost factor and opportunity to buy a copy at the right time that has never netted a Supe 1 for me. Saying that, I prefer Cap over Supe from a character and coolness standpoint. But if given the choice to own a fourth Cap 1 or my first Supe 1, I'd take the Supe 1 due to rarity and the chance to own for the first time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.A.tor Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Poll boardies that own both or either. That is a good sample group. I have owned three Cap 1s in my time and no copies of Supe 1. It's always been a cost factor and opportunity to buy a copy at the right time that has never netted a Supe 1 for me. Saying that, I prefer Cap over Supe from a character and coolness standpoint. But if given the choice to own a fourth Cap 1 or my first Supe 1, I'd take the Supe 1 due to rarity and the chance to own for the first time. I believe that to be the major driving force. Cap 1 has been (and to an extent) still is more accessible price wise than supes 1... The rarity of supes 1 relative to demand will always (IMO) keep it priced higher than cap 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sartre Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Poll boardies that own both or either. That is a good sample group. I have owned three Cap 1s in my time and no copies of Supe 1. It's always been a cost factor and opportunity to buy a copy at the right time that has never netted a Supe 1 for me. Saying that, I prefer Cap over Supe from a character and coolness standpoint. But if given the choice to own a fourth Cap 1 or my first Supe 1, I'd take the Supe 1 due to rarity and the chance to own for the first time. I believe that to be the major driving force. Cap 1 has been (and to an extent) still is more accessible price wise than supes 1... The rarity of supes 1 relative to demand will always (IMO) keep it priced higher than cap 1. At one time ( 70's and early 80's) Captain Marvel was on par with Superman ... older generations kept his popularity alive then. Marvel #1 was considered more scarce than Action #1 and was a more expensive book.. During the first few comic auctions at Sotheby's in the 90's, Jerry Weist once told me how he couldn't understand why Superman comics were in the toilet. At that time Cap #1 overshadowed Superman #1. Popularity will fluctuate and values will as well. These concerns are secondary for true collectors...what has most significance for myself as a collector (and not a dealer) are the historical and nostalgic roots... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Knight Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Hey Primetime, why don't u buy a Supes 1 in SDCC if one is available assuming of course you are going. Great to be in this elite club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primetime Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Hey Primetime, why don't u buy a Supes 1 in SDCC if one is available assuming of course you are going. Great to be in this elite club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knightsofold Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 I doubt there are many Cap #1 owners under 30 as well. If you can afford a nice cap #1, you can probably buy a supes #1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ComicConnoisseur Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 (edited) Something to consider regarding Cap #1 is that it has ascended to claim the spot as the most valuable "Marvel" comic book in existence. While the top-graded AF #15 might outsell the top graded Cap #1, the latter is the clear winner in lower grades. Many of us, myself included, have a love for both Marvel and DC. But there are a lot of people out there who almost exclusively love Marvel. To them, Action #1/Tec #27 doesn't hold a ton of luster because they're genuinely not into DC books or characters. So for those "Marvel Zombies" out there -- Cap #1 is the absolute pinnacle of comic collecting. Being the most valuable book, of the undisputed No. 1 company, leaves a lot of room for growth. Recently, we've seen the rise in prices reflect this accordingly. But given the factors stated above and considering the distance Cap #1 still has from the top DC books, I wouldn't be surprised to see this book ascend even further. For the last few years I have maintained Cap 1 is the best GA comic book to invest in, there is still a lot of play in this book, look for another major price bump when the Cap 3 movie comes out. One thing I think is really pushing it is the Captain America: The Winter Soldier movie. Not only did Captain America: The Winter Soldier do 700 million plus at the box office, but it is critically acclaimed as the best superhero movie since The Dark Knight. Marvel made a genius move putting Captain America into modern times. This move introduced millions of a new generation of fans to this iconic superhero.The modern mainstream audiences love Captain America. (thumbs u Edited July 20, 2014 by ComicConnoisseur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.A.tor Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Poll boardies that own both or either. That is a good sample group. I have owned three Cap 1s in my time and no copies of Supe 1. It's always been a cost factor and opportunity to buy a copy at the right time that has never netted a Supe 1 for me. Saying that, I prefer Cap over Supe from a character and coolness standpoint. But if given the choice to own a fourth Cap 1 or my first Supe 1, I'd take the Supe 1 due to rarity and the chance to own for the first time. I believe that to be the major driving force. Cap 1 has been (and to an extent) still is more accessible price wise than supes 1... The rarity of supes 1 relative to demand will always (IMO) keep it priced higher than cap 1. At one time ( 70's and early 80's) Captain Marvel was on par with Superman ... older generations kept his popularity alive then. Marvel #1 was considered more scarce than Action #1 and was a more expensive book.. During the first few comic auctions at Sotheby's in the 90's, Jerry Weist once told me how he couldn't understand why Superman comics were in the toilet. At that time Cap #1 overshadowed Superman #1. Popularity will fluctuate and values will as well. These concerns are secondary for true collectors...what has most significance for myself as a collector (and not a dealer) are the historical and nostalgic roots... All true points. But even in the 70s and 80s and 90s supes 1 cost collectors or dealers alike more than cap 1. That trend continues today and given the market and environment we are in, I expect that trend to continue the rest of my life as well. The current market dynamics indicate And dictate that it will. Again, just my opinion but one I would be willing to back up if logistically feasible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.A.tor Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Something to consider regarding Cap #1 is that it has ascended to claim the spot as the most valuable "Marvel" comic book in existence. While the top-graded AF #15 might outsell the top graded Cap #1, the latter is the clear winner in lower grades. Many of us, myself included, have a love for both Marvel and DC. But there are a lot of people out there who almost exclusively love Marvel. To them, Action #1/Tec #27 doesn't hold a ton of luster because they're genuinely not into DC books or characters. So for those "Marvel Zombies" out there -- Cap #1 is the absolute pinnacle of comic collecting. Being the most valuable book, of the undisputed No. 1 company, leaves a lot of room for growth. Recently, we've seen the rise in prices reflect this accordingly. But given the factors stated above and considering the distance Cap #1 still has from the top DC books, I wouldn't be surprised to see this book ascend even further. For the last few years I have maintained Cap 1 is the best GA comic book to invest in, there is still a lot of play in this book, look for another major price bump when the Cap 3 movie comes out. One thing I think is really pushing it is the Captain America: The Winter Soldier movie. Not only did Captain America: The Winter Soldier do 700 million plus at the box office, but it is critically acclaimed as the best superhero movie since The Dark Knight. Marvel made a genius move putting Captain America into modern times. This move introduced millions of a new generation of fans to this iconic superhero.The modern mainstream audiences love Captain America. (thumbs u Smart move indeed. And no doubt that has translated into some increased interest/demand for comics (more modern from my perspective , but some trickle down effect to vintage,too). Our hobbys heroes are now more mainstream. It's wonderful. But very few of them are plunking down 40k or 100k or whatever for a #1 issue of the comic ... Most of that demand is driven from existing hobby members (from my perspective of buying and selling, over the past 10 years, dozens of action 1s, cap 1s, supes 1s etc) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne-Tec Posted July 20, 2014 Author Share Posted July 20, 2014 (edited) Scarcity-wise, Marvel #1 has Cap #1 beat, but Cap #1 has surpassed it value-wise regardless. There was a time when Marvel #1 was more valuable than Superman #1, and that love of the Marvel Universe was a major driving force behind that. The "Marvel zombie"/GA collector looked to Marvel #1 as their holy grail. Now, many Marvel collectors look to Cap #1 that way. Rick, I hear you loud and clear regarding where Superman #1 has stood in a hierarchy-sense for decades, and why it's scarcity is a major contributing factor to its value. I wouldn't be surprised if it continues to be the more valuable book of the two for many years to come. But I do know that factors of scarcity and "trophy" did very much exist for Marvel #1, and that book has since fallen below Cap #1. I also know that the next generation of collectors, the ones who will rise to greater spending power in another 20+ years did not grow up with with nearly the same love for Superman (overall) as those born in the 1930's-1970's did. Considering the fact that they will be the ones to determine FMV 20 years from now, I think it would be a major oversight to expect the same results, hierarchy-wise, from a group that collectively has very different tastes. Edited July 20, 2014 by Wayne-Tec Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago Boy Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 I think the coverless Marvel 1 on Ebay that hasn't sold for a while at 12.5k is indicative of where this book is headed in the collector realm....that seems not be such an outlandish price to me for slabbed ,complete ,unrestored innards.......(when I saw a coverless MF 52 go for under $1.5k at auction recently I was shocked but I think its in the same vein) The Marvel name has a ton going for it and will keep it highly collectible for many years regardless of what the book is about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.A.tor Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Where has cap 1 outsold marvel 1 grade for grade I'm not saying it won't, but what are the same time frame sales that confirm that statement? Last sales I looked at are quite dated as marvel 1 has been pretty scarce in the market lately so maybe I missed something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
