Captain America Comics #1 Club 14 14

[bluechip]

Cap 1 will not move past superman 1. While waynetec statements make sense and are valid, folks playing in that end of the pool generally (not all of course) don't care as much about that as they do the "trophy". The rareness factor drives the 6 fig + pricing. That factor alone (rarity) will keep supes above cap 1 price wise

 

Another factor to consider, and it's a big one, is that (and correct me if I'm mistaken) the majority of Superman #1 owners are from an older generation, one that grew up loving Superman. Collectors who are presently in their 20's-30's don't have the same positive exposure to the character as older generations. But that younger generation has also pushed the Marvel Universe into another stratosphere.

 

In the history of our hobby, most Superman #1 owners have come from generations where Superman was beloved. Things have obviously changed drastically over the past 25 years. Comic collecting is extremely nostalgia-driven, so it's not unreasonable to expect that when the younger generations rise to greater spending power, they may be more inclined to invest great sums of money into characters they love, as opposed to characters like Superman, who unfortunately isn't even remarkably liked by many young collectors.

 

I've shown Superman 1, Batman 1, Action 1 and Tec 27 to people who were born on the cusp of the 21st century, and nearly all of them have been very impressed. Many of them had already seen the issues.

 

(I was born long after those issues were published, myself, yet I was motivated to acquire them at a time when superheroes were still looked down upon by most adults -- including most of my work colleagues -- and they were virtually unknown outside the USA. Today all that has changed completely. Colleagues of mine who would've scoffed at comics 20 years ago claim today they have always been fans (because it is considered uncool not to be) and the heroes, as well as the supporting characters and villains, are household names around the world)

 

 

[bluechip]

IMO, Cap #1 has only begun to scrape the surface of its potential.

 

It's long been recognized for its "classic cover", and as a very desirable book, but it's really so much more. Unlike any other GA book that I can think of, Cap #1 has a real word connection that makes it undeniably unique. Not only was it Simon and Kirby's first breakthrough creation (akin to FF #1 being Stan Lee's first breakthrough creation), but it was a real world response to the evils of Nazism. Simon and Kirby were both Jewish and Cap #1 was a political, personal statement to show their desire for the U.S. to enter WWII.

 

Lex Luthor, the Joker, Two-Face -- they're all great villains of fiction. But the real world of the early 1940's was facing a real life threat, a real life evil unlike anything ever seen in modern history. Captain America's origin was tied in, storyline-wise, as a direct response to that real world threat. He was America's answer -- physically, emotionally and symbolically. That real world relevance puts the character on a different level than his contemporaries of the time. Because of this, Captain America can be appreciated by both comic book fans and students of history alike. The voice and vision of the American man was captured in Cap #1.

 

Beyond that, Cap #1 has ascended to claim the spot as the hobby's most valuable "Marvel" comic book. And as I've stated before, that's very significant to the many collectors who was "Marvel zombies" and don't really care for DC. To them, Action #1 and Tec #27 don't hold the same appeal -- they want the very best of what their universe has to offer. The fact that Marvel has gone on to become the industry's No. 1 company is highly significant. Because we're not talking about Cap #1 as the top book of a cult company -- we're talking about the top book, born from THE top company.

 

We've seen the T206 Honus Wagner card (a player with little modern day relevance, comparatively speaking) break the $2,000,000 mark. We've seen stamps sell for millions of dollars. When you consider the very direct, very relevant connections Captain America has to modern day forms of entertainment, and the vast room comic books still have to grow in a world record sense -- I don't think it's a stretch at all to think that a CGC 9.8 Cap #1 could be a $2,000,000 book.

 

Before the $1,000,000 sale of the CGC 8.0 Action #1, the perception of how valuable a comic book could be was vastly different. In a short period of time, that changed tremendously. Due to factors of both nostalgia and modern-relevance, comic books are very unique. And there's a plethora of reasons to think that there's still a lot of room for significant growth.

 

Cap 1 will not outpace Action 1 or Tec 27 but it could outpace Supe 1. Holding it back is the fact that it's more commonly found than the others. But it's a first appearance as well as a #1, and it's got a real history component, as the man says, which the others do not have. The cover can be appreciated on levels beyond that of any other golden age key.

 

If the #1 itself is going beyond the reach of many, then maybe consider the books that contained ads for Cap 1 which were on the stands before Cap 1 itself. At least one of those ads features a prelim image of cap before the wings were added to his head. And these books can be found pretty cheap

 

The fact that it has a history component that AC1, Tec27... or for that matter AF15 and BB28 do not have... could be a strenght, but it could definitely also be a weakness.

 

Because whereas the others are timeless... their stories and legends exist like timeless fairytales..while CA1 is tied to a particular time in history. What happens when WWII is a distant memory like perhaps "Battle at the River Jhelum"?? Will CA1 loose some relevance because it is not as timeless as the other big ones?

 

Many in this thread have a CA1, so I'm not counting on people saying "yes, it will loose relevance".. hhehe... but just consider it..

 

True...nothing will last and everything will pass...even comic books..

The philosopher Hegel once said "The history of the world is none other than the progress of the consciousness of freedom." but he also said

"The only thing we learn from history is that we learn nothing from history"

 

It's my hope WW2 is never forgotten

 

 

Unfortunately, Hitler has earned a place in history that will not be forgotten for a couple thousand years (presuming we all survive that long).

 

 

Edited July 20, 2014 by bluechip

[bluechip]

IMO, Cap #1 has only begun to scrape the surface of its potential.

 

It's long been recognized for its "classic cover", and as a very desirable book, but it's really so much more. Unlike any other GA book that I can think of, Cap #1 has a real word connection that makes it undeniably unique. Not only was it Simon and Kirby's first breakthrough creation (akin to FF #1 being Stan Lee's first breakthrough creation), but it was a real world response to the evils of Nazism. Simon and Kirby were both Jewish and Cap #1 was a political, personal statement to show their desire for the U.S. to enter WWII.

 

Lex Luthor, the Joker, Two-Face -- they're all great villains of fiction. But the real world of the early 1940's was facing a real life threat, a real life evil unlike anything ever seen in modern history. Captain America's origin was tied in, storyline-wise, as a direct response to that real world threat. He was America's answer -- physically, emotionally and symbolically. That real world relevance puts the character on a different level than his contemporaries of the time. Because of this, Captain America can be appreciated by both comic book fans and students of history alike. The voice and vision of the American man was captured in Cap #1.

 

Beyond that, Cap #1 has ascended to claim the spot as the hobby's most valuable "Marvel" comic book. And as I've stated before, that's very significant to the many collectors who was "Marvel zombies" and don't really care for DC. To them, Action #1 and Tec #27 don't hold the same appeal -- they want the very best of what their universe has to offer. The fact that Marvel has gone on to become the industry's No. 1 company is highly significant. Because we're not talking about Cap #1 as the top book of a cult company -- we're talking about the top book, born from THE top company.

 

We've seen the T206 Honus Wagner card (a player with little modern day relevance, comparatively speaking) break the $2,000,000 mark. We've seen stamps sell for millions of dollars. When you consider the very direct, very relevant connections Captain America has to modern day forms of entertainment, and the vast room comic books still have to grow in a world record sense -- I don't think it's a stretch at all to think that a CGC 9.8 Cap #1 could be a $2,000,000 book.

 

Before the $1,000,000 sale of the CGC 8.0 Action #1, the perception of how valuable a comic book could be was vastly different. In a short period of time, that changed tremendously. Due to factors of both nostalgia and modern-relevance, comic books are very unique. And there's a plethora of reasons to think that there's still a lot of room for significant growth.

 

Cap 1 will not outpace Action 1 or Tec 27 but it could outpace Supe 1. Holding it back is the fact that it's more commonly found than the others. But it's a first appearance as well as a #1, and it's got a real history component, as the man says, which the others do not have. The cover can be appreciated on levels beyond that of any other golden age key.

 

If the #1 itself is going beyond the reach of many, then maybe consider the books that contained ads for Cap 1 which were on the stands before Cap 1 itself. At least one of those ads features a prelim image of cap before the wings were added to his head. And these books can be found pretty cheap

 

There may be variations in the character's appearance in early ads dependent upon the artist, but according to Joe Simon Cap was sold to Goodman complete, awhile before any ads would've been created. As the story goes, Goodman apparently wanted a patriotic character to compete with MLJ's Shield and asked if Joe had any ideas. As luck would have it, Simon had a book on the shelf ready that he and Jack Kirby had recently developed to pitch. Simon used this opportunity to negotiate an editorship agreement with Goodman.

.

 

I had also read Simon's account and have seen the initial presentation drawing that Simon said was the "pitch" for Cap.

 

Which leaves me confused as to why the wings were left off his head on the first pass at the cover of #1. Could be a Kirby oversight. (such as leaving the spider off Spider-man's chest, etc)

 

Edited July 20, 2014 by bluechip

[sacentaur]

Everyone has their loves and opinions.

 

And everyone loves their opinions.

[Wayne-Tec]

The "Marvel #1 vs. Cap #1" comparison is very similar to "FF #1 vs. AF #15."

 

Marvel Comics #1 and Fantastic Four #1:

 

*Older

*Rarer

*Birth of a new universe

*Once considered "more valuable" by an older generation

 

Captain America Comics # and Amazing Fantasy #15:

 

*Newer

*Less rare

*1st appearances of loved, presently successful characters

*Better, more "classic" covers, illustrated by Kirby

[Moetown]

I'm in my early 40's and while the DC books are iconic in nature, the Cap-1 book just does it for me from the artwork to the historical significance (WW2) to the current popularity in mainstream media. I would find it hard to believe Cap-1 doesn't 'close the gap' with the DC books in the next decade given the embrace that Captain America is now seeing worldwide with the younger generations, especially if the CA franchise continues to do well at the box-office... This discussion, imo, isn't about what the 40+ crowd feels but rather how the events of today and tomorrow will shape the valuation landscape of these books in the coming decade or two...

 

Just my thoughts & opinions but I would think if you laid out all four books in front of a 20-to-35 year old collector and stated they all have equal value, Cap-1 would I bet would be selected first more than it wasn't.

 

Edited July 20, 2014 by Moetown

[The_Captain]

Everyone has their loves and opinions.

 

And everyone loves their opinions.

 

[G.A.tor]

I think cap 1 is great and I personally prefer it (and valued it equal or greater to marvel 1 in 2.0) but my guess is marvel 1 would still give a cap 1 a run for its money (strictly from a sales perspective). Maybe not, that's my point, there really haven't been any marvel 1 sales of significance lately.

 

 

[Wayne-Tec]

Just my thoughts & opinions but I would think if you laid out all four books in front of a 20-to-35 year old collector and stated they all have equal value, Cap-1 would I bet would be selected first more than it wasn't.

 

I'm not sure I would go that far. Batman is, IMO, the most loved character of the three. Sure, Tec #27 doesn't have his origin and the cover is not on-par with Cap #1's, but the 1st app. of, arguably, the most loved comic book character in the world is likely to be the most desirable.

 

What I find interesting is your disclaimer, saying if "they all have equal value", which one would be picked? I find that a lot of collectors are highly influenced by "perception of hierarchy" and that includes myself. When you spend x-number of years as a collector and the collective group says Action #1 is book No. 1, Tec #27 is book No. 2 and Superman #1 is book No. 3 -- you tend to convince yourself that it all makes sense. After all, x-number of comic collectors can't be wrong in a subjective world, right?

 

With me, I've found myself having interest in certain books --not because of their content, and at times, not even because of any kind of personal connection-- but because of the "perception" of their desirability, that trophy-syndrome.

 

If you had no familiarity with the hobby, if you got into it today and the group told you that:

 

*Action #1 is No. 1 (birth of the superhero genre, first app. of Superman)

*Tec #27 is No. 2 (first app. of Batman, the most popular superhero going)

*Cap #1 is No. 3 (first app. of Marvel's most loved GA character)

*Superman #1 is No. 4 (first solo superhero title)

 

 

..you probably wouldn't blink. You may think, "Superman gets his love in Action #1 as the most valuable book of all, so it's no surprise that the most valuable Marvel comic is No. 3."

 

Scarcity wasn't enough to keep Marvel #1 ahead of Cap #1.

Scarcity wasn't enough to keep FF #1 ahead of AF #15.

 

There are a lot of sensible factors at play here -- but I'm not saying that alone makes my opinion the right one because it really is all subjective. What I'm saying is, it's hard to overlook the tremendous impact of the "this is how it's always been, and it's probably going to stay that way" type of mentality.

Edited July 20, 2014 by Wayne-Tec

[G.A.tor]

I really like that Wayne Tec is so passionate about the books... But I believe you to be a. Exception to he general state of the hobby among "youts". The avg 20-30 is not , by any realistic means, putting that much thought or effort into it. Heck, many 40-50+ don't. I've asked buyers why they've purchased a cap 1 or supe 1 etc from me and more often than not I get "it's cool", "it's a good investment" or similar responses. No one has ever expanded too to much behind that

 

Now there are always exceptions to the rule. Satre is a great artist, his perspective is diff than many. Wayne Tec is analytically the exception to most. Me, I'm not that deep.

[gadzukes]

 

 

 

Thanks for sharing that. That's a little tid bit of info I never knew. Is that the way Cap was originally designed? Without the wings?

What comic is that ad in?

[Wayne-Tec]

I really like that Wayne Tec is so passionate about the books... But I believe you to be a. Exception to he general state of the hobby among "youts". The avg 20-30 is not , by any realistic means, putting that much thought or effort into it. Heck, many 40-50+ don't. I've asked buyers why they've purchased a cap 1 or supe 1 etc from me and more often than not I get "it's cool", "it's a good investment" or similar responses. No one has ever expanded too to much behind that

 

Now there are always exceptions to the rule. Satre is a great artist, his perspective is diff than many. Wayne Tec is analytically the exception to most. Me, I'm not that deep.

 

I appreciate the kind words Rick. (thumbs u

 

And I hear what you're saying regarding the degree of depth collectors put into making these choices and developing these preferences. I've been fortunate enough to get to know some great collecting minds, and fellow students of history so to speak. For me, the historical/analytical points I bring up bring me a deeper degree of enjoyment. I can very much relate to the same "cool" factors that we all appreciate, but it's all of that extra stuff that makes spending thousands and thousands of dollars on these funny books completely worth it to me.

 

If the two of us sat down and cracked open a few Coke Zeros, I bet you I could further ignite your enthusiasm and love for these books via historical reflection.

Edited July 20, 2014 by Wayne-Tec

[Sqeggs]

I really like that Wayne Tec is so passionate about the books... But I believe you to be a. Exception to he general state of the hobby among "youts". The avg 20-30 is not , by any realistic means, putting that much thought or effort into it. Heck, many 40-50+ don't. I've asked buyers why they've purchased a cap 1 or supe 1 etc from me and more often than not I get "it's cool", "it's a good investment" or similar responses. No one has ever expanded too to much behind that

 

Now there are always exceptions to the rule. Satre is a great artist, his perspective is diff than many. Wayne Tec is analytically the exception to most. Me, I'm not that deep.

 

I guess gators float near the surface....

[G.A.tor]

I really like that Wayne Tec is so passionate about the books... But I believe you to be a. Exception to he general state of the hobby among "youts". The avg 20-30 is not , by any realistic means, putting that much thought or effort into it. Heck, many 40-50+ don't. I've asked buyers why they've purchased a cap 1 or supe 1 etc from me and more often than not I get "it's cool", "it's a good investment" or similar responses. No one has ever expanded too to much behind that

 

Now there are always exceptions to the rule. Satre is a great artist, his perspective is diff than many. Wayne Tec is analytically the exception to most. Me, I'm not that deep.

 

I guess gators float near the surface....

Don't get me wrong. There's probably very little about ga sh dc/timelys I don't know about or at least appreciate in the grand scheme of things. I'm just Sayng when I buy a cap1 I don't do it for all the little reasons behind the obvious

[bluechip]

 

 

 

Thanks for sharing that. That's a little tid bit of info I never knew. Is that the way Cap was originally designed? Without the wings?

What comic is that ad in?

 

Human Torch #2(3). Believe it also appears in another book but don't know which one. The Torch has an interior ad as well.

 

As for the design, I don't know if he was made first without wings or if this was just an error on the cover.

[bluechip]

The "Marvel #1 vs. Cap #1" comparison is very similar to "FF #1 vs. AF #15."

 

Marvel Comics #1 and Fantastic Four #1:

 

*Older

*Rarer

*Birth of a new universe

*Once considered "more valuable" by an older generation

 

Captain America Comics # and Amazing Fantasy #15:

 

*Newer

*Less rare

*1st appearances of loved, presently successful characters

*Better, more "classic" covers, illustrated by Kirby

 

 

FF 1 also has a classic Kirby cover.

 

I am not sure Marvel 1 is totally analogous to FF1. Marvel's GA "universe" vanished from the newsstands between 1953 and 1961 (with a failed revival in 1954). Without FF1 the Marvel universe might have been no more important today than the Nedor universe,

 

FF 1 itself will always have more standing historically due to its place in Marvel history and the well-known tale of its role as the "turning point" in the life of Stan Lee and Jack Kirby, and Marvel. Do a Google search and you will find many news accounts (however apocryphal) of the Goodman golf game and the story of how Lee was about to quit when his said "just once, do it your own way," etc.

 

 

But aside from that the FF and their universe of villains etc go beyond the name value of those in Marvel 1 (unless you count the torch as a predecessor), though some MCU films with Namor in them could bring that character considerable heat in the future.

 

For now the FF are way better known than original Torch or Namor despite some mediocre movies and they shall be in a successful film series -- at some point. I hold little if any hope for the "Chronicle Part 2" which will masquerade as a FF movie.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 20, 2014 by bluechip

[Sqeggs]

I really like that Wayne Tec is so passionate about the books... But I believe you to be a. Exception to he general state of the hobby among "youts". The avg 20-30 is not , by any realistic means, putting that much thought or effort into it. Heck, many 40-50+ don't. I've asked buyers why they've purchased a cap 1 or supe 1 etc from me and more often than not I get "it's cool", "it's a good investment" or similar responses. No one has ever expanded too to much behind that

 

Now there are always exceptions to the rule. Satre is a great artist, his perspective is diff than many. Wayne Tec is analytically the exception to most. Me, I'm not that deep.

 

I guess gators float near the surface....

Don't get me wrong. There's probably very little about ga sh dc/timelys I don't know about or at least appreciate in the grand scheme of things. I'm just Sayng when I buy a cap1 I don't do it for all the little reasons behind the obvious

 

Some gators dive deep!

[bluechip]

I really like that Wayne Tec is so passionate about the books... But I believe you to be a. Exception to he general state of the hobby among "youts". The avg 20-30 is not , by any realistic means, putting that much thought or effort into it. Heck, many 40-50+ don't. I've asked buyers why they've purchased a cap 1 or supe 1 etc from me and more often than not I get "it's cool", "it's a good investment" or similar responses. No one has ever expanded too to much behind that

 

Now there are always exceptions to the rule. Satre is a great artist, his perspective is diff than many. Wayne Tec is analytically the exception to most. Me, I'm not that deep.

 

I guess gators float near the surface....

Don't get me wrong. There's probably very little about ga sh dc/timelys I don't know about or at least appreciate in the grand scheme of things. I'm just Sayng when I buy a cap1 I don't do it for all the little reasons behind the obvious

 

Most people don't think about why they do what they do or collect what they collect.

 

Perhaps Wayne-tec is a contender for the comic book equivalent of Masters and Johnson.

 

 

[sartre]

I understand and appreciate most of what's been said.. BUT...Just making a point about Cap art compared ... They are so raw...

The splash page is not mine... hope its ok to post.

[Buzzetta]

The fact that it has a history component that AC1, Tec27... or for that matter AF15 and BB28 do not have... could be a strenght, but it could definitely also be a weakness.

 

Because whereas the others are timeless... their stories and legends exist like timeless fairytales..while CA1 is tied to a particular time in history. What happens when WWII is a distant memory like perhaps "Battle at the River Jhelum"?? Will CA1 loose some relevance because it is not as timeless as the other big ones?

 

Many in this thread have a CA1, so I'm not counting on people saying "yes, it will loose relevance".. hhehe... but just consider it..

 

Captain America's battles against the Nazis in Cap #1 are not much more era-specific than Superman's battles against Great Depression-related struggles in Action #1.

 

Simply not fighting villains tied to a specific year is not what makes characters or stories "timeless", and by the same token, fighting villains or wars that actually took place during specific years does not disqualify a book from being timeless either.

 

Unlike Action #1, Tec #27 and AF #15, which included only one hero-story a piece, Cap #1 features four hero stories—including the hero's origin (absent from Tec #27) and the 1st app. of his arch-nemesis (absent from Action #1, Tec #27 and AF #15).

 

I am also with Wayne-Tec on this one. As a guy in his 30's if the opportunity arises, I would select owning a Cap 1 over a Superman 1, Batman 1 or a Marvel 1. IN addition to the reasons that he states, there is also the added desirability of owning the first appearance of Captain America over an issue '1' of a character that had already been out for a bit.