Cerebus 1 a more valuable key than Hulk 181? Really Overstreet? Poll on Page 87 3 3

[RockMyAmadeus]

Oh and people....saying "thus and such is on page XXX" is meaningless, because many people have different page settings than you.

 

It would make much more sense to say "thus and such posted at X:XXPM, EDT."

 

Then, everyone has a fixed position to look for it.

[RockMyAmadeus]

And this would still be higher than Overstreet's purported value of both hulk 181 and cerebus 1 in a 9.2.

 

-J.

 

That means absolutely nothing. What is OS on AF15 in 9.2? Cap #1? Action #1? FF#12?

 

We all know that OS on the hyper keys isn't in line with FMV on graded books.

 

That's been the OP's point since the first post. And hulk 181 is a hyper key. Cerebus 1 is not.

 

-J.

 

I don't think that's been his point. His point was that he thinks that Hulk 181 should be ranked higher than Cerebus #1 (in terms of value). I don't think he ever disputed "key" status.

 

Going back to my post, as I said, we all know that OS values aren't totally in line with what we see a majority of the time (ie, certified HG comics). And it would be silly to think they would. How many of us would line up and take out a second mortgage on our homes if we could buy graded keys at their OS price? You'd make a small fortune quickly if that were possible.

 

But, what OS does give us is an appx value/range of particular, uncertified book. And, from that, we can rank the books.

 

I don't have this years OS but I know that, of the books in my example, Action 1 is the most expensive. Just like in the "real-time auction/online sales" world. Cap 1 will be second, followed by AF15, then FF#12 (and then Cerebus 1, and Hulk 181).

 

Nobody is disputing the more popular character. Nobody is disputing the book that is in higher demand. I don't think anyone would dispute which book is more liquid.

 

The thread is about which book should be more valuable in OS. And, right now, OS has it right.

 

You've made some good points. When in doubt go with the rarer book, however, recent Cerebus #1 sales have been uninspiring across the board. I'm not convinced a new Cerebus #1 in 9.2 brought to market would breach $2500. Maybe at this grade it would motivate a higher end collector to pay a steep premium over guide, but there is currently lackluster demand in the more common grades. What we do know is that the Hulk 181 in 9.2 sells above guide consistently.

 

Extremely rare books do not behave the same way as extremely common books in high grade.

 

The rarer the book, the more extreme the difference.

 

This is a basic principle of the market for rare books. I recognize that many of you don't understand that, having spent much time in the market of common books...but that's the way it is. The "rules" go out the window.

 

Look at Action #1. In 9.0 it's $3.2M. In 8.5...one grade difference...it's less than half that, $1.5M. In 8.0, one more grade difference, it's less than 1/3 the record,.at $1M. In 6.0, it's only $327K, 1/10th the record price...only a full grade and a half (VF/NM to Fine) lower.

 

 

(thumbs u

 

Are you agreeing, or flipping me the bird...?

 

Because Jaydog just called all of that hypothesis, supposition, and presumption.

 

[Jaydogrules]

Dale is right.

 

Only a lunatic would pay over 3K for a 181 in 9.2.

 

 

+1 3k is a white paged, well centered 9.4.

 

One sale a trend does not make.

 

...and here is recent, publicly available sales data that suggests you are mistaken:

 

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Incredible-Hulk-181-CGC-9-4-White-Pages-1st-Wolverine-Full-also-selling-180-/271593526196?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item3f3c3c53b4

 

I understand that some of you may not be able to "accept" what this "common" book actually sells for. However the data is what it is.

 

-J.

 

 

 

 

He accepted an offer that wasn't $3,800? Unless you are the seller, you have no idea what sales price was.

 

I've seen more than 2 9.4's sell on the boards in the last month in the $3,000.00 area. Ask RMA, he was the seller of one of them. And it was a beauty.

 

You would be better served to show a little humility on the boards. You don't know everything.

 

Yes you can see the accepted offer. Click "original listing" and then "print" about half way down on the next page.

 

$3500.

 

And since when does citing publicly available sales data and asking others to do the same indicate a lack of humility ?

 

-J.

 

Hey Jay...are those books in your sigline yours?

 

Yes the books in every sig line I put together are mine. Why do you keep asking me that ?

 

-J.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Dale is right.

 

Only a lunatic would pay over 3K for a 181 in 9.2.

 

 

+1 3k is a white paged, well centered 9.4.

 

One sale a trend does not make.

 

...and here is recent, publicly available sales data that suggests you are mistaken:

 

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Incredible-Hulk-181-CGC-9-4-White-Pages-1st-Wolverine-Full-also-selling-180-/271593526196?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item3f3c3c53b4

 

I understand that some of you may not be able to "accept" what this "common" book actually sells for. However the data is what it is.

 

-J.

 

 

 

 

He accepted an offer that wasn't $3,800? Unless you are the seller, you have no idea what sales price was.

 

I've seen more than 2 9.4's sell on the boards in the last month in the $3,000.00 area. Ask RMA, he was the seller of one of them. And it was a beauty.

 

You would be better served to show a little humility on the boards. You don't know everything.

 

Yes you can see the accepted offer. Click "original listing" and then "print" about half way down on the next page.

 

$3500.

 

And since when does citing publicly available sales data and asking others to do the same indicate a lack of humility ?

 

-J.

 

Hey Jay...are those books in your sigline yours?

 

Yes the books in every sig line I put together are mine. Why do you keep asking me that ?

 

-J.

 

Because the pictures are not all from the same source.

 

Just wondering.

 

[HighStakesComics]

JayDog, I have to give you credit, brother. You are like Hank Fonda in 12 Angry Men. I think in another dozen pages or so you might start to win a few folks over.

[RockMyAmadeus]

JayDog, I have to give you credit, brother. You are like Hank Fonda in 12 Angry Men. I think in another dozen pages or so you might start to win a few folks over.

 

Only if they manage to have several strokes in the meantime.

 

 

You can't argue from a position of emotion, and hope to sway people to your side when there are constant injections of reason to reply.

 

Propaganda only works when dissension is silenced.

[Jaydogrules]

Dale is right.

 

Only a lunatic would pay over 3K for a 181 in 9.2.

 

 

+1 3k is a white paged, well centered 9.4.

 

One sale a trend does not make.

 

...and here is recent, publicly available sales data that suggests you are mistaken:

 

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Incredible-Hulk-181-CGC-9-4-White-Pages-1st-Wolverine-Full-also-selling-180-/271593526196?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item3f3c3c53b4

 

I understand that some of you may not be able to "accept" what this "common" book actually sells for. However the data is what it is.

 

-J.

 

 

 

 

He accepted an offer that wasn't $3,800? Unless you are the seller, you have no idea what sales price was.

 

I've seen more than 2 9.4's sell on the boards in the last month in the $3,000.00 area. Ask RMA, he was the seller of one of them. And it was a beauty.

 

You would be better served to show a little humility on the boards. You don't know everything.

 

Yes you can see the accepted offer. Click "original listing" and then "print" about half way down on the next page.

 

$3500.

 

And since when does citing publicly available sales data and asking others to do the same indicate a lack of humility ?

 

-J.

 

Hey Jay...are those books in your sigline yours?

 

Yes the books in every sig line I put together are mine. Why do you keep asking me that ?

 

-J.

 

Because the pictures are not all from the same source.

 

Just wondering.

 

 

@RMA, I told you already I lift the scans directly from the sale listing whenever I buy a book. If you like I can take a live shot of the group with my camera phone and post it for you. (thumbs u

 

@Blaze, it's a romantic thought but I doubt it. Opinions are too firmly entrenched at this point, regardless of what the most recent publicly available sales data would suggest.

 

-J.

[Lazyboy]

Oh and people....saying "thus and such is on page XXX" is meaningless, because many people have different page settings than you.

 

It would make much more sense to say "thus and such posted at X:XXPM, EDT."

 

Then, everyone has a fixed position to look for it.

 

Post number.

[HighStakesComics]

Dale is right.

 

Only a lunatic would pay over 3K for a 181 in 9.2.

 

 

+1 3k is a white paged, well centered 9.4.

 

One sale a trend does not make.

 

...and here is recent, publicly available sales data that suggests you are mistaken:

 

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Incredible-Hulk-181-CGC-9-4-White-Pages-1st-Wolverine-Full-also-selling-180-/271593526196?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item3f3c3c53b4

 

I understand that some of you may not be able to "accept" what this "common" book actually sells for. However the data is what it is.

 

-J.

 

 

 

 

He accepted an offer that wasn't $3,800? Unless you are the seller, you have no idea what sales price was.

 

I've seen more than 2 9.4's sell on the boards in the last month in the $3,000.00 area. Ask RMA, he was the seller of one of them. And it was a beauty.

 

You would be better served to show a little humility on the boards. You don't know everything.

 

Yes you can see the accepted offer. Click "original listing" and then "print" about half way down on the next page.

 

$3500.

 

And since when does citing publicly available sales data and asking others to do the same indicate a lack of humility ?

 

-J.

 

Hey Jay...are those books in your sigline yours?

 

Yes the books in every sig line I put together are mine. Why do you keep asking me that ?

 

-J.

 

Because the pictures are not all from the same source.

 

Just wondering.

 

 

@RMA, I told you already I lift the scans directly from the sale listing whenever I buy a book. If you like I can take a live shot of the group with my camera phone and post it for you. (thumbs u

 

@Blaze, it's a romantic thought but I doubt it. Opinions are too firmly entrenched at this point, regardless of what the most recent publicly available sales data would suggest.

 

-J.

 

It's definitely a close call. Most of the larger dealers probably hold multiple 181's at any given time. A Cerebus 9.2 is something they may come across once or twice in a lifetime, if that. It's a book that will draw attention from other dealers due to its scarcity. It's place on the list is merited, but if another 2 or 3 high grade copies pop up on the census there's a good chance the 181 leapfrogs it next year.

 

Sick FF 36 Btw. That book is heating up big time. Very nice.

[rjrjr]

Probably because more vauable often equates to more attractive and popular. The musical album that is more popular usually sells more and demands higher prices.

 

However, this mechanism is not at play here.

 

Cerebus might have a higher price individually (in a grade or two) but the total amount of money comics collectors are willing to pay to get a H181 is far far far higher. So in that sense H181 is clearly more valuable. The market value is the price for each book sold times the number of books sold - is far far far greater for H181 than for Cerebus.

 

So only in a very very specific (almost ridiculously narrow) understanding of 'value' is Cerebus (perhaps) more valuable.

 

Therefore we obviously object to someone claiming that "Cerebus is more valuable than H181".

 

Please open your 2014 OPG, or turn back to page 58 of this train wreck, and note that the difference in price is only $100, which is less than 5% of the overall value of each. Last year, Hulk #181 was $100 over Cerebus #1, and this year Cerebus #1 was $100 over Hulk #181. Both increased, but Cerebus #1 increased a bit more, in this particular timeframe, in this particular grade.

 

I don't think I understand your explanation of market value above, "the price for each book sold times the number of books sold," but it seems like you agree with what Chuck Gower, RMA, and others have been saying:

 

So only in a very very specific (selling price in US dollars on average throughout the year 2013 in NM-/9.2 condition) understanding of 'value' is Cerebus (perhaps) more valuable.

 

Yes, I don't think you understood it. Maybe I did not explain it clearly enough.

 

This is how market value is usually calculated in financial markets. Take for example the New York stock exchange... the market value of any company there... is the value of each share times the numbers of shares.

 

Right?

 

Similarly, the total market value of a comic book (the total amount of money the combined comic collectors have in terms of value of the issue) is the number of books in exsistence times the price per book.

 

If you are still with me, I am sure you can see that the value put on H181 by the entire market is many many many times the value of Cerebus,

 

Even if we take a simplistic notion of value as the value for one book in one grade - then there are only one or two grades where Cerebus is even close.

 

So in order for Cerebus to be more 'valuable' we would have to not look at the value in the total market, not look at the value in grade 8.0, 6.5 and so on...

 

We can only look at one understanding of value and even within this understanding we can only look at a little fraction of the grades.

 

Such selectivity makes the notion that Cerebus should be "more valuable than H181" hard to take seriously.

 

Market capitalization, Alex. That is the terminology you are looking for.

 

True. How the heck would you go about calculating the market capitalization for different books? And what makes us so sure IH181 would end up being the top book by market capitalization? I suspect there are some lesser valued books with more copies that would give it a run for its money.

 

I have no idea what RMA is talking about half the time because he is so precise (how is that for a use of the word) in his writing that if you are not as equally precise, you end up getting into a discussion that you didn't want to have. It's like having a discussion with a legal document. I'm now a RMA fan after all this. (thumbs u

 

I have to say, this is a very entertaining thread. I've never seen a horse beaten, revived, beaten again, revived, beaten, etc... but I would imagine this thread is very similar.

[rjrjr]

 

Oh and AlexanderM thinks you national dealers are all a bunch of 'medicine men'.

 

I think it is fair to say Mile High Chuck does resemble a medicine man.

[rjrjr]

I know 1 person right now that would buy one if I had it.

 

Remind me again why you think it has a higher FMV than a Hulk 181? Because you "know a guy" who would buy one now if you had one? Is this the kind of dealer data I'm supposed to take as being more reliable than GPA? Not to sound too sarcastic here, but come on guys.

-J.

 

It's so weird.

 

The MAJORITY of SALES of Comic books are from exactly the type of transactions Dale is talking about, yet you dismiss this information outright.

 

GPA reflects a SMALL sample of the market from a SMALL sample of books, and you treat it as if it's the gospel.

 

And ironically, it is the small number of copies of Cerebus that is the biggest reason for this thread.

 

Picking and choosing and quantifying is about the only way I see IH 181 claiming the top valued book of the BA. There are 3 other books ahead of Cerebus on the BA top valued list that need to be dismissed too! (thumbs u

[RockMyAmadeus]

Oh and people....saying "thus and such is on page XXX" is meaningless, because many people have different page settings than you.

 

It would make much more sense to say "thus and such posted at X:XXPM, EDT."

 

Then, everyone has a fixed position to look for it.

 

Post number.

Also an option. But I figured time would be the easiest for everyone to figure out.

 

I suspect 85% of the people who post here have no idea each post is numbered.

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Dale is right.

 

Only a lunatic would pay over 3K for a 181 in 9.2.

 

 

+1 3k is a white paged, well centered 9.4.

 

One sale a trend does not make.

 

...and here is recent, publicly available sales data that suggests you are mistaken:

 

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Incredible-Hulk-181-CGC-9-4-White-Pages-1st-Wolverine-Full-also-selling-180-/271593526196?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item3f3c3c53b4

 

I understand that some of you may not be able to "accept" what this "common" book actually sells for. However the data is what it is.

 

-J.

 

 

 

 

He accepted an offer that wasn't $3,800? Unless you are the seller, you have no idea what sales price was.

 

I've seen more than 2 9.4's sell on the boards in the last month in the $3,000.00 area. Ask RMA, he was the seller of one of them. And it was a beauty.

 

You would be better served to show a little humility on the boards. You don't know everything.

 

Yes you can see the accepted offer. Click "original listing" and then "print" about half way down on the next page.

 

$3500.

 

And since when does citing publicly available sales data and asking others to do the same indicate a lack of humility ?

 

-J.

 

Hey Jay...are those books in your sigline yours?

 

Yes the books in every sig line I put together are mine. Why do you keep asking me that ?

 

-J.

 

Because the pictures are not all from the same source.

 

Just wondering.

 

 

@RMA, I told you already I lift the scans directly from the sale listing whenever I buy a book. If you like I can take a live shot of the group with my camera phone and post it for you. (thumbs u

 

I missed that comment.

 

@Blaze, it's a romantic thought but I doubt it. Opinions are too firmly entrenched at this point, regardless of what the most recent publicly available sales data would suggest.

 

-J.

 

Oh, Jaydog. Jaydog, Jaydog, Jaydog....

[AlexanderM]

I keep repeating the same. And it is still true.

 

Hulk IS the most valuable book my most standards (total market value, the value in most grades).

 

However, by one specific standard it might be said that Cerebus is more valuable.

 

Therefore, if the question is "which is the most valuable BA book of the two", it by most standards would be H181. However, if the question is "which book would be most valuable (in terms of price) as a single copy in the particular grade of 9.2", then the answer may be Cerebus.

 

 

 

There... that is the bottom line.

 

 

 

However, this thread is no longer about who is right. It resembles more a school yard where RMA has more people with a similar agenda or less miffed with him than with Jay. So RMA just has a few more people padding him on the back making him feel he is so incredibly logical.

 

Most people are flock animals and most will follow the herd. So no surprise there.

 

I, for one, still think that Jay in most instances show more objectivity and logic than RMA. For example, Jay mostly relies on hard and publicly available data for his reasoning, while RMA relies on debating tricks (see primary school debate team), and being spurred on by a few other people (both of which are very subjective bases of reasoning).

 

So, while I think we already have a substantive bottom line... the match between objective reasoning on one side and back-slapping on the other will probably continue undeterred

 

PS. RMA is by no means dumb, and he does argue in quite a civil manner. Just like most people involved in this thread actually have done... which is a bit of a credit to us all despite being anything but in agreement on some of these issues.

[Prince Namor]

I keep repeating the same. And it is still true.

 

Hulk IS the most valuable book my most standards (total market value, the value in most grades).

 

No one is questioning that. NO ONE. NO ONE.

 

***NO ONE IN THE ENTIRE THREAD HAS QUESTIONED THIS****

 

IS there a way to type this in neon and make it flash?

 

You and jaydog and bronzejohnny are having this argument in your own minds.

 

However, by one specific standard it might be said that Cerebus is more valuable.

 

That's.... what.... we've... been.... saying....

 

Therefore, if the question is "which is the most valuable BA book of the two", it by most standards would be H181. However, if the question is "which book would be most valuable (in terms of price) as a single copy in the particular grade of 9.2", then the answer may be Cerebus.

 

Yeah... That's.... what.... we've... been.... saying....

 

There... that is the bottom line.

 

Tell it to jaydog, he still doesn't accept it. That's why this whole thread has been going round and round....

 

Oh, that and you keep repeating the argument that no one is making.

 

However, this thread is no longer about who is right. It resembles more a school yard where RMA has more people with a similar agenda or less miffed with him than with Jay. So RMA just has a few more people padding him on the back making him feel he is so incredibly logical.

 

You have NO IDEA what you're talking about.

No one is going to accuse RMA of being the most popular guy on this forum.

There are people on here who'd probably rather have root canal surgery than come in here and AGREE with him.

 

PERSONALLY, I think he is a gentleman, and a scholar, and an all around great guy.

 

But the fact is, a few people, who have clashed spectacularly with him in the past, have STILL come in here and taken the same position as him, because jaydogs argument is pretty universally disagreed with.

BECAUSE it's RMA, there hasn't been nearly AS MANY people come in here and jump in.

 

I, for one, still think that Jay in most instances show more objectivity and logic than RMA.

 

See. Here you go. You came to the conclusion you did above (by one specific standard (9.2+) it might be said that Cerebus is more valuable.), which jaydog is COMPLETELY DISAGREEING with, THUS the ENTIRE THREAD HERE, and yet you still see him as ' in most instances show more objectivity and logic than RMA.'

 

For you the debate is over.

 

You disagree with jaydog (other than the argument you guys are making up in your own head) and AGREE with RMA.

 

You just have an issue with RMA. It's pretty clear.

 

For example, Jay mostly relies on hard and publicly available data for his reasoning, while RMA relies on debating tricks (see primary school debate team), and being spurred on by a few other people (both of which are very subjective bases of reasoning).

 

Just because you don't understand it, doesn't mean it's a trick.

 

So, while I think we already have a substantive bottom line... the match between objective reasoning on one side and back-slapping on the other will probably continue undeterred

 

Once again, you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

PS. RMA is by no means dumb,

 

Yeah, I'm sure he's thrilled by your ringing endorsement.

 

and he does argue in quite a civil manner. Just like most people involved in this thread actually have done... which is a bit of a credit to us all despite being anything but in agreement on some of these issues.

 

No, the problem is, you're ON the SAME SIDE of the agreement, yet you're still trying to find ways to argue with the side you're agreeing with.

[Ryan.]

[chrisco37]

Right. The whole thread is about which is more valuable in OSPG.

 

Again, I don't have the current OS but, based on past years, when they list the Top Books value-wise, they list it with the 9.2 value.

 

They don't add 2.0 + 4.0 + 6.0 + 8.0 etc. and average it out. They take the 9.2 number.

 

That's the discussion; 9.2 OSPG values of Hulk 181 v. Cerebus 1.

[wardevil0]

I keep repeating the same. And it is still true.

 

Hulk IS the most valuable book my most standards (total market value, the value in most grades).

 

However, by one specific standard it might be said that Cerebus is more valuable.

 

Therefore, if the question is "which is the most valuable BA book of the two", it by most standards would be H181. However, if the question is "which book would be most valuable (in terms of price) as a single copy in the particular grade of 9.2", then the answer may be Cerebus.

 

 

There... that is the bottom line.

 

Yes! That's exactly it! That's what the original comment was all about! Overstreet published a list which was a comparison of the selling price in US$ of a single copy of several Bronze Age comics, including a single copy of Hulk 181 vs a single copy of Cerebus 1 in NM-/9.2 condition. That is the topic of the thread in which we are debating. Everything else has been obfuscation.

 

Is Hulk 181 more popular? Yes.

Does Hulk 181 sell more copies daily? Yes.

Does the highest-graded copy of Hulk 181 sell for more than the highest-graded copy of Cerebus 1? Yes.

Is Hulk 181 more of an "iconic key?" Yes.

Have recent sales shown Hulk 181 to be continuing to increase in price? Yes.

Is Hulk 181 likely to outpace Cerebus 1 and become clearly more valuable in the near future? I think it will.

Would one discrete copy of Hulk 181 in NM- sell for more than one discrete copy of Cerebus 1 in NM- in the year 2013? The people who made the list say "No," and many of us agree with them.

 

To continue to assert otherwise indicates that either: one does not actually want to talk about the topic, or one fundamentally disagrees with Overstreet's valuation process (in which case one should probably just disregard the whole list).

 

If I pay $80,000 for a Ford Fiesta...is that a reasonable price?

 

Come on now...

 

I'm not sure what point this is trying to make. New GPA highs are set for books all the time. That's how/why they go up in value.

 

-J.

 

Jaydog, why are you so willing to concede that the upward spiral of Hulk 181 prices is normal, but the thought of Cerebus 1 increasing in value is so laughable? Yes, I know that a new GPA high has not been recently set by Cerebus 1, but that could change in the blink of an eye. We simply don't have the information to accurately gauge the true interest in Cerebus 1, but a lot of dealers have said they would price a Cerebus 1 (9.2 or 9.4) higher than a Hulk 181 in the same grade.

 

[AlexanderM]

I keep repeating the same. And it is still true.

 

Hulk IS the most valuable book my most standards (total market value, the value in most grades).

 

No one is questioning that. NO ONE. NO ONE.

 

***NO ONE IN THE ENTIRE THREAD HAS QUESTIONED THIS****

 

IS there a way to type this in neon and make it flash?

 

You and jaydog and bronzejohnny are having this argument in your own minds.

 

However, by one specific standard it might be said that Cerebus is more valuable.

 

That's.... what.... we've... been.... saying....

 

Therefore, if the question is "which is the most valuable BA book of the two", it by most standards would be H181. However, if the question is "which book would be most valuable (in terms of price) as a single copy in the particular grade of 9.2", then the answer may be Cerebus.

 

Yeah... That's.... what.... we've... been.... saying....

 

There... that is the bottom line.

 

Tell it to jaydog, he still doesn't accept it. That's why this whole thread has been going round and round....

 

Oh, that and you keep repeating the argument that no one is making.

 

However, this thread is no longer about who is right. It resembles more a school yard where RMA has more people with a similar agenda or less miffed with him than with Jay. So RMA just has a few more people padding him on the back making him feel he is so incredibly logical.

 

You have NO IDEA what you're talking about.

No one is going to accuse RMA of being the most popular guy on this forum.

There are people on here who'd probably rather have root canal surgery than come in here and AGREE with him.

 

PERSONALLY, I think he is a gentleman, and a scholar, and an all around great guy.

 

But the fact is, a few people, who have clashed spectacularly with him in the past, have STILL come in here and taken the same position as him, because jaydogs argument is pretty universally disagreed with.

BECAUSE it's RMA, there hasn't been nearly AS MANY people come in here and jump in.

 

I, for one, still think that Jay in most instances show more objectivity and logic than RMA.

 

See. Here you go. You came to the conclusion you did above (by one specific standard (9.2+) it might be said that Cerebus is more valuable.), which jaydog is COMPLETELY DISAGREEING with, THUS the ENTIRE THREAD HERE, and yet you still see him as ' in most instances show more objectivity and logic than RMA.'

 

For you the debate is over.

 

You disagree with jaydog (other than the argument you guys are making up in your own head) and AGREE with RMA.

 

You just have an issue with RMA. It's pretty clear.

 

For example, Jay mostly relies on hard and publicly available data for his reasoning, while RMA relies on debating tricks (see primary school debate team), and being spurred on by a few other people (both of which are very subjective bases of reasoning).

 

Just because you don't understand it, doesn't mean it's a trick.

 

So, while I think we already have a substantive bottom line... the match between objective reasoning on one side and back-slapping on the other will probably continue undeterred

 

Once again, you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

PS. RMA is by no means dumb,

 

Yeah, I'm sure he's thrilled by your ringing endorsement.

 

and he does argue in quite a civil manner. Just like most people involved in this thread actually have done... which is a bit of a credit to us all despite being anything but in agreement on some of these issues.

 

No, the problem is, you're ON the SAME SIDE of the agreement, yet you're still trying to find ways to argue with the side you're agreeing with.

 

Hehehe...

 

Well, I could say the same for you and RMA. I have never said anything else than what I said above... and yet .. at least RMA seems to want to disagree with me.

 

I might agree with RMA... BUT!.... it depends if he tries to claim Cerebus is the most valuable or King of the Bronze Age (and yes... at least one person in here did say that.. ) because then we don't. If he words it correctly.. namely that under very specific circumstances (single copy, 9.2 etc.) a case can be made that Cerebus is more valuable.. then yes, I won't really disagree with him.

 

Having said that.... I'm not entirely convinced either to agree with RMA because Jay's arguments are solid and less based on "I know a guy who knows a guy.." and more on publicly available data than RMA's. So for me it is still up in the air a bit whether Cerebus or H181 is in fact the most valuable even under those specifications of the term "valuable". But it could be he is right on that one... I just wish he could back it up with more hard evidence rather than anecdotale evidence.

 

However, that was (from the beginning of the thread) never my point. My point is that saying that Cerebus is more valuable or the King of BA is simply false. And yes, some people in this thread have argued that. I know that RMA and you are specifically talking about this 9.2 grade for a single book etc. .. and as long as you remain this specific I don't argue with it. .. although I might think it is being very selective and such a rare occurrence (Cerebus being more valuable) that is is an extremely bad representation of reality bordering on a worthless claim...

 

Finally, I have nothing against RMA. In fact I respect the guy.