Lucifer ordered for a Fox pilot 1 1

[Lazyboy]

You're absolutely right, Jaydog. I had a table at a local show last week, but none of my sales are documented or verified online. I guess they didn't happen and the cash in my wallet doesn't actually exist. That sucks I have some things I'd like to spend the money on.

 

By the way, since I can't account for all the millions of copies of X-Men (v.2) #1 and there are less than 2000 on the census, I have to assume that only 25000 copies still exist. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

[Jaydogrules]

...except, as with the cerebus thread, nobody is backing up any of what they're saying with actual data.

 

In the Cerebus thread, both Flying Donut and Dale Roberts (two big dealers) said they would price the Cerebus higher. You dismissed that.

 

Here, again, we have a "rare" book. In this thread, again you've dismissed what people have said. Schmidt said he has 5-6 copies of this book and saw 2 more at B'more. Since it's not on a website or GPA or Heritage, you don't consider it.

 

Yes, it may be anecdotal, but you dismiss it entirely. I've made some assumptions, I'll grant you that. But, it's not wild speculation grounded in nothing. It's an educated guess.

 

Is it crazy of me to think that if what Schmidt says is true (he has 5-6 copies) that there may be someone else (or more) that have multiple copies? Is it crazy for RMA to speculate that Neil Gaiman and Tori Amos each have a copy?

 

It's not "condescending BS" just because someone tells you you're wrong.

 

That is not condescending but this is still just speculation. Speculating that "someone else" might have multiple copies is not guessing in an educated manner IMO. It's just guessing. What makes you think that ? Schmidt says he has "5 or 6", which is it ? Somebody else might have 2 or three? Where are those and who is that ?

 

The best we've heard is an occasional sighting of a copy at the occasional con amongst hundreds of dealers. I don't doubt that happens. That also doesn't prove that there are hundreds of raw copies floating around out there. If anything it just prices there's a handful here and there. Which basically supports my point.

 

And not to drag that cerebus nonsense here, I still say that it is irrelevant what a dealer says he would "price" a book at. He could price it at a million it doesn't mean it would sell for that.

We actually know what a hulk 181 on all grades will sell for. The best you can hope to do with a cerebus is put your price on it and then cross your fingers for the next six months that it will sell for even a percentage of that.

 

-J.

[Jaydogrules]

You're absolutely right, Jaydog. I had a table at a local show last week, but none of my sales are documented or verified online. I guess they didn't happen and the cash in my wallet doesn't actually exist. That sucks I have some things I'd like to spend the money on.

 

By the way, since I can't account for all the millions of copies of X-Men (v.2) #1 and there are less than 2000 on the census, I have to assume that only 25000 copies still exist. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

 

Now "there's" the condescending BS I was referring to. Your meaningless post added absolutely nothing productive to the conversation. Thanks for playing. (thumbs u

 

-J.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Well, let's see where this goes....

 

[Jaydogrules]

. The opinions of those who have disagreed with me have largely consisted of what collectors and people "might have done" or "might be doing" with this particular book. This is nothing but speculation.

 

Sorry, but you're wrong.

 

And, a better statistician than I could use the data you cite to prove it.

 

No need to rely on opinion.

 

My opinion is based on what can actually be observed in the market place, and the statistical sample therein. I am NOT basing my opinion on essentially unseen shadow inventory that cannot be proven either way that it even exists. You are suggesting that "it must exist, how can it not?". My response to that is: "Because the statistical sample size that we have seen suggests that it does not".

 

-J.

 

 

 

 

The census and "statistical sample" represents only a small portion of the larger picture. Drawing conclusions using that small portion is like suggesting the Mona Lisa is a painting of a cow, because the only portion you see is a small patch of brown dress.

 

It is necessarily flawed "methodology."

 

Not at all. Take Heritage for example. One of the preeminent auction houses for comic books (and other knick knacks). They have offered some of the best and rarest comic books from across all ages.

 

How many Sandman #8 editorials has Heritage auctioned in the last 15 years? Sandman 8, editorial, the most coveted and hardest to find of all the issues in the run?

 

3.

 

Two slabbed, and one raw.

 

That's it.

 

There's but one sample size for you that supports my position and tends to dispute yours.

 

I don't deny that there is a probability that another 200% of what we see might still be ou

 

 

t there in the raw. I am simply saying that I highly doubt it is significantly more than that based on what we see (and don't see) coming to market.

 

-J.

 

 

Heritage specializes in vintage comics. They don't give a hoot about taking moderns in on consignment. They actually turn them down, unless it's a tag along with vintage books.

 

 

 

 

Anecdotal.

 

Next!

 

 

Oh okay. So I guess all those dozens and dozens of copies of the killing joke, NM 98, sandman 1, walking dead, the nam, Longshot , punisher limited, 1, punisher regular 1, etc etc etc on there are all just figments of my imagination ?

 

And you really think if I called and said "hey heritage I have one of only 3 copies of a sandman 8 editorial in a 9.8 to auction will u take it?" U think that answer would be "no"? Come on.

 

-J.

[RockMyAmadeus]

. The opinions of those who have disagreed with me have largely consisted of what collectors and people "might have done" or "might be doing" with this particular book. This is nothing but speculation.

 

Sorry, but you're wrong.

 

And, a better statistician than I could use the data you cite to prove it.

 

No need to rely on opinion.

 

My opinion is based on what can actually be observed in the market place, and the statistical sample therein. I am NOT basing my opinion on essentially unseen shadow inventory that cannot be proven either way that it even exists. You are suggesting that "it must exist, how can it not?". My response to that is: "Because the statistical sample size that we have seen suggests that it does not".

 

-J.

 

 

 

 

The census and "statistical sample" represents only a small portion of the larger picture. Drawing conclusions using that small portion is like suggesting the Mona Lisa is a painting of a cow, because the only portion you see is a small patch of brown dress.

 

It is necessarily flawed "methodology."

 

Not at all. Take Heritage for example. One of the preeminent auction houses for comic books (and other knick knacks). They have offered some of the best and rarest comic books from across all ages.

 

How many Sandman #8 editorials has Heritage auctioned in the last 15 years? Sandman 8, editorial, the most coveted and hardest to find of all the issues in the run?

 

3.

 

Two slabbed, and one raw.

 

That's it.

 

There's but one sample size for you that supports my position and tends to dispute yours.

 

I don't deny that there is a probability that another 200% of what we see might still be ou

 

 

t there in the raw. I am simply saying that I highly doubt it is significantly more than that based on what we see (and don't see) coming to market.

 

-J.

 

 

Heritage specializes in vintage comics. They don't give a hoot about taking moderns in on consignment. They actually turn them down, unless it's a tag along with vintage books.

 

 

 

 

Anecdotal.

 

Next!

 

 

Oh okay. So I guess all those dozens and dozens of copies of the killing joke, NM 98, sandman 1, walking dead, the nam, Longshot , punisher limited, 1, punisher regular 1, etc etc etc on there are all just figments of my imagination ?

 

And you really think if I called and said "hey heritage I have one of only 3 copies of a sandman 8 editorial in a 9.8 to auction will u take it?" U think that answer would be "no"? Come on.

 

-J.

 

Do you think the comics people at Heritage even *know* what a "Sandman 8 editorial" IS...?

 

Or would they have to research it?

 

[seanfingh]

There is a factor that is not being discussed at all. All of my Sandman books are either OO or picked up by me between 2000-2005 or so when all 80s and 90s books were being sold at fractions of their highs.

 

I do not have an 8(b) because they were never available cheaply, and never made it into bargain bins. I have only held two in person - both at Andy Ash's Sheraton show in the early 90s and both were $100. This was a time when I had never paid more than $20 for a book.

 

With them being rare as hen's teeth when they were relatively new, I don't see how any data, whether it is completed sales on auction sites or anything else, is more than pure speculation. And I certainly don't see why we should assume a higher than normal attrition rate for something that was HIGHLY coveted from the moment it was known to exist.

 

If it were me, I would be trolling the former goth girl soccer moms for copies.

[Jaydogrules]

There is a factor that is not being discussed at all. All of my Sandman books are either OO or picked up by me between 2000-2005 or so when all 80s and 90s books were being sold at fractions of their highs.

 

I do not have an 8(b) because they were never available cheaply, and never made it into bargain bins. I have only held two in person - both at Andy Ash's Sheraton show in the early 90s and both were $100. This was a time when I had never paid more than $20 for a book.

 

With them being rare as hen's teeth when they were relatively new, I don't see how any data, whether it is completed sales on auction sites or anything else, is more than pure speculation. And I certainly don't see why we should assume a higher than normal attrition rate for something that was HIGHLY coveted from the moment it was known to exist.

 

If it were me, I would be trolling the former goth girl soccer moms for copies.

 

(thumbs u

 

-J.

[thehumantorch]

It's quote-city in here!

 

Sure is, I'm at the quote-city court house watching the quotes fly.

[Lazyboy]

You're absolutely right, Jaydog. I had a table at a local show last week, but none of my sales are documented or verified online. I guess they didn't happen and the cash in my wallet doesn't actually exist. That sucks I have some things I'd like to spend the money on.

 

By the way, since I can't account for all the millions of copies of X-Men (v.2) #1 and there are less than 2000 on the census, I have to assume that only 25000 copies still exist. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

 

Now "there's" the condescending BS I was referring to. Your meaningless post added absolutely nothing productive to the conversation. Thanks for playing. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

Right, you don't like it when others post completely unreasonable things. Only you are allowed to do that. Thanks for confirming. (thumbs u

[Jaydogrules]

You're absolutely right, Jaydog. I had a table at a local show last week, but none of my sales are documented or verified online. I guess they didn't happen and the cash in my wallet doesn't actually exist. That sucks I have some things I'd like to spend the money on.

 

By the way, since I can't account for all the millions of copies of X-Men (v.2) #1 and there are less than 2000 on the census, I have to assume that only 25000 copies still exist. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

 

Now "there's" the condescending BS I was referring to. Your meaningless post added absolutely nothing productive to the conversation. Thanks for playing. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

Right, you don't like it when others post completely unreasonable things. Only you are allowed to do that. Thanks for confirming. (thumbs u

 

except I have done no such thing, and surely not on the order of that one post of yours.

 

-J.

[RockMyAmadeus]

You're absolutely right, Jaydog. I had a table at a local show last week, but none of my sales are documented or verified online. I guess they didn't happen and the cash in my wallet doesn't actually exist. That sucks I have some things I'd like to spend the money on.

 

By the way, since I can't account for all the millions of copies of X-Men (v.2) #1 and there are less than 2000 on the census, I have to assume that only 25000 copies still exist. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

 

Now "there's" the condescending BS I was referring to. Your meaningless post added absolutely nothing productive to the conversation. Thanks for playing. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

Right, you don't like it when others post completely unreasonable things. Only you are allowed to do that. Thanks for confirming. (thumbs u

 

except I have done no such thing, and surely not on the order of that one post of yours.

 

-J.

 

Oh boy.

[Garlanda]

Here is some documentation I offered a while ago...

 

From Wizard 8 (Apr 1992)

 

 

Known to be $100 less than 3 years after it came out. For comparison, ASM 300 is $27, Batman 232 is $14, Brave and the Bold 60 is $50. This was clearly a huge book.

 

From Wizard 130 (Jul 2002)

 

 

By this time the series had ended and most new fans were coming in for the TPBs, so it's dropped to $60, but still not something you'd throw away unless you knew absolutely nothing about comics.

 

Personally, I'm on the watch for some former-goth soccer moms...

[Mike's Rack]

I still say that it is irrelevant what a dealer says he would "price" a book at. He could price it at a million it doesn't mean it would sell for that.

I mean no offense but, it appears that this is a part of the problem, I've noticed that your arguments often contain logical fallacies. To say this is irrelevant is wrong. Each of these dealers is well respected and both have a reputation for moving books rather than "showing" books. Both dealers have a solid appreciation of the market and would price a book according to their appreciation of the market. You may not place much value in their assessment. However, their expert opinions are relevant and saying otherwise is wrong. It is a logical fallacy, it's a form of the "moving the goalposts" or "shifting the bar" fallacy. The fact that two reputable dealers agree does add some support for the assertion that the Cerebus is worth more. You may not give it much weight it but it is relevant.

[sakaridis]

That is not condescending but this is still just speculation. Speculating that "someone else" might have multiple copies is not guessing in an educated manner IMO. It's just guessing. What makes you think that ? Schmidt says he has "5 or 6", which is it ? Somebody else might have 2 or three? Where are those and who is that ?

I have one. Bought it in 1999 for $85 (IIRC).

 

It's been in the same box for the last 15 years, along with all my Sandman issues and barring some unforeseen disaster it'll remain there for the rest of my time on this earth.

 

Now, try to imagine how many more people like me (Sandman fans/collectors who don't need/want to sell their personal collection) might be out there and you may realize why it's entirely possible (nay, probable!) that there are many more copies existing than the 100 you give as a "ceiling" for this book.

 

Like RMA said, 600 distributed copies in 1989 of a well-known book with a hardcore fanbase, cannot logically translate to less than 100 existing in 2014.

 

It "might" (since no one can say for certain in cases like this) but it really doesn't make sense to believe so.

 

[mschmidt]

...except, as with the cerebus thread, nobody is backing up any of what they're saying with actual data.

 

In the Cerebus thread, both Flying Donut and Dale Roberts (two big dealers) said they would price the Cerebus higher. You dismissed that.

 

Here, again, we have a "rare" book. In this thread, again you've dismissed what people have said. Schmidt said he has 5-6 copies of this book and saw 2 more at B'more. Since it's not on a website or GPA or Heritage, you don't consider it.

 

Yes, it may be anecdotal, but you dismiss it entirely. I've made some assumptions, I'll grant you that. But, it's not wild speculation grounded in nothing. It's an educated guess.

 

Is it crazy of me to think that if what Schmidt says is true (he has 5-6 copies) that there may be someone else (or more) that have multiple copies? Is it crazy for RMA to speculate that Neil Gaiman and Tori Amos each have a copy?

 

It's not "condescending BS" just because someone tells you you're wrong.

 

That is not condescending but this is still just speculation. Speculating that "someone else" might have multiple copies is not guessing in an educated manner IMO. It's just guessing. What makes you think that ? Schmidt says he has "5 or 6", which is it ? Somebody else might have 2 or three? Where are those and who is that ?

 

Really? I'm in NYC on business now, hence my inability to actually go down and check my boxes. If it makes you feel any better, I'd be happy to do so once I'm home again :thumbsup:

[RockMyAmadeus]

That is not condescending but this is still just speculation. Speculating that "someone else" might have multiple copies is not guessing in an educated manner IMO. It's just guessing. What makes you think that ? Schmidt says he has "5 or 6", which is it ? Somebody else might have 2 or three? Where are those and who is that ?

I have one. Bought it in 1999 for $85 (IIRC).

 

It's been in the same box for the last 15 years, along with all my Sandman issues and barring some unforeseen disaster it'll remain there for the rest of my time on this earth.

 

Now, try to imagine how many more people like me (Sandman fans/collectors who don't need/want to sell their personal collection) might be out there and you may realize why it's entirely possible (nay, probable!) that there are many more copies existing than the 100 you give as a "ceiling" for this book.

 

Like RMA said, 600 distributed copies in 1989 of a well-known book with a hardcore fanbase, cannot logically translate to less than 100 existing in 2014.

 

It "might" (since no one can say for certain in cases like this) but it really doesn't make sense to believe so.

And thus we have...a reasonable conclusion.

 

[sonicyouth]

I have a 9.2 raw Sandman 8 LE that I refuse to grade so I can actually see the editorial.

 

cgc is good for sellers but bad for collectors in this case. most die hard sandman fans simply aren't worried about owning a slabbed Sandman 8 LE.

 

Its the Harley quinn cosplay girls that collect this ..

 

 

[FineCollector]

...goth girl soccer moms...

 

[Jaydogrules]

I still say that it is irrelevant what a dealer says he would "price" a book at. He could price it at a million it doesn't mean it would sell for that.

I mean no offense but, it appears that this is a part of the problem, I've noticed that your arguments often contain logical fallacies. To say this is irrelevant is wrong. Each of these dealers is well respected and both have a reputation for moving books rather than "showing" books. Both dealers have a solid appreciation of the market and would price a book according to their appreciation of the market. You may not place much value in their assessment. However, their expert opinions are relevant and saying otherwise is wrong. It is a logical fallacy, it's a form of the "moving the goalposts" or "shifting the bar" fallacy. The fact that two reputable dealers agree does add some support for the assertion that the Cerebus is worth more. You may not give it much weight it but it is relevant.

 

Honestly these buzz words that you toss around don't really have much meaning, and further, they are not representative of anything I have actually said. It's great that you respect dealer opinions. I do as well. However I also have enough knowledge and insight to form my own opinions. And no I do not see any actual evidence beyond "dealer opinion", that a cerebus 1 9.2 has a higher FMV than a hulk 181 9.2.

 

But if you want to dredge that non-point up again I would respectfully ask that you take it back over the to the bronze section.

 

With regards to the sandman 8 book in question, it's nice to see some people at least allowing for the possibility that there "may" be as few as 100 surviving copies. There were indeed 600 copies "printed" but they were not all distributed. And it was a very long time before they were given any kind of significant value over the regular issue. You can see the progression on the GPA chart. I have never once said "there are only 100 copies". I have only said that I believe this to be a reasonable statement based on X, Y, and Z facts. I have no doubt there are raw copies lingering around here and there in collections. But again, I certainly would not say there are hundreds upon hundreds. The book is just too valuable, and too many people know the book is too valuable for there not to be more copies on the census and available at any given time for sale on the open market for this to be true IMO. "IMO" being the operative part of that sentence. (thumbs u

 

-J.