Lucifer ordered for a Fox pilot 1 1

[Topnotchman]

I think there are at least 500 copies still in collections, with an additional 10% of them unknowingly having the error edition, total 550.

[chrisco37]

Unsubstantiated anecdotes!

 

That guy's a fiction writer anyway, basically a professional liar. Not a credible witness.

 

 

[Lazyboy]

I'm baffled by how quickly we're going back over this. Here's a link to RMA posting a transcript from the Feb 9, 1990 issue of Comics Buyers Guide:

 

RMA and Jaydog talking about this in the Copper Forum

 

For the linking impaired, this is key:

When writer Neil Gaiman was touring California after the San Diego Comic-Con last summer, DC sent one box each to two comics stores where Gaiman would be doing signings: Comix Experience in San Francisco and The Outer Limits in Los Angeles. It was in these stores that the discovery was made that they were variant printings. "Jaws dropped and phone calls were made," Gaiman told CBG. "And, to the credits of both the stores, the comics *were* given away to the people at the signings -- although I think anything they had left over after the signing they will be selling."

 

So, in a quote from none other than Neil Gaiman himself, who was there when they were given out, the books were immediately recognized as variants and given out during his appearances, even further reinforcing the supposition that these variant copies are mostly safely in the hands of collectors who are keeping them.

 

 

I wonder if there are more than 100 signed copies out there in collections...

[chrisco37]

I'm baffled by how quickly we're going back over this. Here's a link to RMA posting a transcript from the Feb 9, 1990 issue of Comics Buyers Guide:

 

RMA and Jaydog talking about this in the Copper Forum

 

For the linking impaired, this is key:

When writer Neil Gaiman was touring California after the San Diego Comic-Con last summer, DC sent one box each to two comics stores where Gaiman would be doing signings: Comix Experience in San Francisco and The Outer Limits in Los Angeles. It was in these stores that the discovery was made that they were variant printings. "Jaws dropped and phone calls were made," Gaiman told CBG. "And, to the credits of both the stores, the comics *were* given away to the people at the signings -- although I think anything they had left over after the signing they will be selling."

 

So, in a quote from none other than Neil Gaiman himself, who was there when they were given out, the books were immediately recognized as variants and given out during his appearances, even further reinforcing the supposition that these variant copies are mostly safely in the hands of collectors who are keeping them.

 

 

I wonder if there are more than 100 signed copies out there in collections...

 

GLOD garbage.

[Lazyboy]

I'm baffled by how quickly we're going back over this. Here's a link to RMA posting a transcript from the Feb 9, 1990 issue of Comics Buyers Guide:

 

RMA and Jaydog talking about this in the Copper Forum

 

For the linking impaired, this is key:

When writer Neil Gaiman was touring California after the San Diego Comic-Con last summer, DC sent one box each to two comics stores where Gaiman would be doing signings: Comix Experience in San Francisco and The Outer Limits in Los Angeles. It was in these stores that the discovery was made that they were variant printings. "Jaws dropped and phone calls were made," Gaiman told CBG. "And, to the credits of both the stores, the comics *were* given away to the people at the signings -- although I think anything they had left over after the signing they will be selling."

 

So, in a quote from none other than Neil Gaiman himself, who was there when they were given out, the books were immediately recognized as variants and given out during his appearances, even further reinforcing the supposition that these variant copies are mostly safely in the hands of collectors who are keeping them.

 

 

I wonder if there are more than 100 signed copies out there in collections...

 

GLOD garbage.

 

I was actually considering adding "(worthless junk, unapproved by CGC)" to my post, but decided against it.

[Garlanda]

I guess I'm easily impressionable, but I really want a Cerebus #1 and Sandman #8B now.

[chrisco37]

I guess I'm easily impressionable, but I really want a Cerebus #1 and Sandman #8B now.

 

Stay out of the GA Forums then. The same phenomenon happens. But it gets expensive real quick.

[Dale Roberts]

(with the exception of course being the #8 editorial variant which only has about 30 known surviving copies,

 

Interesting.

 

Where did you get this information?

 

 

Just took a quick look at the census.

 

-J.

 

There are 34 copies on the census.

 

What makes you think the census represents all surviving copies?

 

...."known" copies. There were what only 600 originally made and handed out in just two locations in California ? That particular issue has been sought after for some time. It's a safe bet the majority of them are known to the market at this point. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

You make a lot of assumptions about stuff you don't know about. I have 2 copies of the book in my collection, not slabbed. And I have sold at least 2 others that I know are not slabbed.

 

It's highly likely that most of the books are still out there in collections. I would guess there are at least 500 copies still in collections. Really almost no reason for any book from that time period not to have survived to this point. Sandman sold well from the time it came out and was a well loved titles at the time.

[chrisco37]

(with the exception of course being the #8 editorial variant which only has about 30 known surviving copies,

 

Interesting.

 

Where did you get this information?

 

 

Just took a quick look at the census.

 

-J.

 

There are 34 copies on the census.

 

What makes you think the census represents all surviving copies?

 

...."known" copies. There were what only 600 originally made and handed out in just two locations in California ? That particular issue has been sought after for some time. It's a safe bet the majority of them are known to the market at this point. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

You make a lot of assumptions about stuff you don't know about. I have 2 copies of the book in my collection, not slabbed. And I have sold at least 2 others that I know are not slabbed.

It's highly likely that most of the books are still out there in collections. I would guess there are at least 500 copies still in collections. Really almost no reason for any book from that time period not to have survived to this point. Sandman sold well from the time it came out and was a well loved titles at the time.

 

Not on GPA. Never happened.

 

 

[Garlanda]

Well, I've wanted a Sandman #8B for years but just kept putting off actually picking one up. My Sandman collection is complete except for 8B and 18B. It's bumped up in priority now. I'm sure I'll lose interest in Cerebus #1 before too long, since I have no real draw to it. The only thing I really have to do is avoid finding one of these temporary fascinations before the appeal wears off. I'm sitting on several recent Image slabs in which I have no real interest because they were readily available on eBay when the urge struck.

[Jaydogrules]

I think there are at least 500 copies still in collections, with an additional 10% of them unknowingly having the error edition, total 550.

 

Groundless speculation is fun, right ?

 

I'm sticking with about 100. Just not enough on the census, not enough reported sales, and not enough seen on the market raw, slabbed or otherwise to speculate differently.

There are also too many examples of other books with similar print runs and fan bases to compare it to with much higher census numbers and market availability that belie many of your theories.

 

As I said, one can either "assume" people just aren't slabbing or selling them in large numbers (based on what, exactly?), or we can extrapolate from existing market data to reach a proximate conclusion. In this case, that you are grossly over estimating the survival rate of the book.

 

What's that old saying again about the most obvious answer usually being the right one ?

 

-J.

[Lazyboy]

What is "obvious" about the idea that most copies of a popular comic book from 1989 (that has never been worthless) have been destroyed?

[Jaydogrules]

(with the exception of course being the #8 editorial variant which only has about 30 known surviving copies,

 

Interesting.

 

Where did you get this information?

 

 

Just took a quick look at the census.

 

-J.

 

There are 34 copies on the census.

 

What makes you think the census represents all surviving copies?

 

...."known" copies. There were what only 600 originally made and handed out in just two locations in California ? That particular issue has been sought after for some time. It's a safe bet the majority of them are known to the market at this point. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

You make a lot of assumptions about stuff you don't know about. I have 2 copies of the book in my collection, not slabbed. And I have sold at least 2 others that I know are not slabbed.

 

It's highly likely that most of the books are still out there in collections. I would guess there are at least 500 copies still in collections. Really almost no reason for any book from that time period not to have survived to this point. Sandman sold well from the time it came out and was a well loved titles at the time.

 

You make a lot of assumptions about what I do and do not know. Why don't you try staying on point for once and saving the condescending attempts at personal attacks to yourself. It makes you look unprofessional. (thumbs u

 

-J.

[HighVoltage]

J,

 

I'm curious as to how you shop / buy comics. Do you primarily shop online, or are you looking in stores or at conventions? A little of all three?

 

Are you basing your speculation primarily on GPA/"reported" sales?

 

On a side note, who wants to sell me a run of Lucifer 1-75 for cheap?

[Dale Roberts]

I think there are at least 500 copies still in collections, with an additional 10% of them unknowingly having the error edition, total 550.

 

Groundless speculation is fun, right ?

 

I'm sticking with about 100. Just not enough on the census, not enough reported sales, and not enough seen on the market raw, slabbed or otherwise to speculate differently.

There are also too many examples of other books with similar print runs and fan bases to compare it to with much higher census numbers and market availability that belie many of your theories.

 

As I said, one can either "assume" people just aren't slabbing or selling them in large numbers (based on what, exactly?), or we can extrapolate from existing market data to reach a proximate conclusion. In this case, that you are grossly over estimating the survival rate of the book.

 

What's that old saying again about the most obvious answer usually being the right one ?

 

-J.

 

extrapolation is the process of estimating, beyond the original observation range, the value of a variable on the basis of its relationship with another variable

 

You are leaving out a few steps and some other data in your "extrapolation".

 

Its like CGC says on the website, "The utilization of this report as a tool for assessing the population and value of certified comic books in any character or grade is unreliable."

 

Sandman is a niche title. The people that bought it REALLY like it. The price this book sells for has up til now not been high enough for the people who have the book to want to sell it. It happens with every book as it gets hot. I bet over half the Fear 19s that have been graded in total, have been graded in the past 3 months. I know I have never graded a copy before, but have graded 4 or 5 since then.

 

Its not as simple as you are trying to make it sound. You can't look at A without knowing B and come up with a reasonable answer for C.

[Dale Roberts]

(with the exception of course being the #8 editorial variant which only has about 30 known surviving copies,

 

Interesting.

 

Where did you get this information?

 

 

Just took a quick look at the census.

 

-J.

 

There are 34 copies on the census.

 

What makes you think the census represents all surviving copies?

 

...."known" copies. There were what only 600 originally made and handed out in just two locations in California ? That particular issue has been sought after for some time. It's a safe bet the majority of them are known to the market at this point. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

You make a lot of assumptions about stuff you don't know about. I have 2 copies of the book in my collection, not slabbed. And I have sold at least 2 others that I know are not slabbed.

 

It's highly likely that most of the books are still out there in collections. I would guess there are at least 500 copies still in collections. Really almost no reason for any book from that time period not to have survived to this point. Sandman sold well from the time it came out and was a well loved titles at the time.

 

You make a lot of assumptions about what I do and do not know. Why don't you try staying on point for once and saving the condescending attempts at personal attacks to yourself. It makes you look unprofessional. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

I do know that you have know idea about the market. I can "extrapolate" that from your myriad of posts. I don't dislike you because of it. Its not personal to me. I just believe based on 25 years or so in the business that you are wrong.

[chrisco37]

(with the exception of course being the #8 editorial variant which only has about 30 known surviving copies,

 

Interesting.

 

Where did you get this information?

 

 

Just took a quick look at the census.

 

-J.

 

There are 34 copies on the census.

 

What makes you think the census represents all surviving copies?

 

...."known" copies. There were what only 600 originally made and handed out in just two locations in California ? That particular issue has been sought after for some time. It's a safe bet the majority of them are known to the market at this point. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

You make a lot of assumptions about stuff you don't know about. I have 2 copies of the book in my collection, not slabbed. And I have sold at least 2 others that I know are not slabbed.

 

It's highly likely that most of the books are still out there in collections. I would guess there are at least 500 copies still in collections. Really almost no reason for any book from that time period not to have survived to this point. Sandman sold well from the time it came out and was a well loved titles at the time.

 

You make a lot of assumptions about what I do and do not know. Why don't you try staying on point for once and saving the condescending attempts at personal attacks to yourself. It makes you look unprofessional. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

No it doesn't. He was on point the whole time, apart from his one "opinion".

 

He gave you reasons, based on his experience as a dealer. Which you dismissed just like in the other thread.

 

He told you that he owns 2 himself. 2% of your theorized existing copies. What are we up to now? Over 50% of all the existing copies tracked down in just about 24 hours.

 

Keep going.

[Jaydogrules]

What is "obvious" about the idea that most copies of a popular comic book from 1989 (that has never been worthless) have been destroyed?

 

I didn't say they were "destroyed". However as many have pointed out the comic was popular in its day, then not so much as a back issue, and then was re discovered again later. A lot can happen in that time to a book. I personally mis-placed, lost, or had stolen nearly half my OO Sandman collection. Where did they go? I thought I had them in that one short box but they're not there anymore ? What happened ?

 

I can't explain why there are scarce numbers of the book or on the census or out there on the open market. I can only speculate. And I simply choose to follow the publicly available data points to the logical conclusion that their survival rate is minimal. For whatever reason. I'm not sure why that riles people up. I have acknowledged other peoples' points as being valid feasible and possible. Taken together I do believe it explains "some" of the book's scarcity. Why no one else seems to want to acknowledge the possibility (probability) that the book is under represented simply because their survival rate is just plain less than what they wish to believe is truly a mystery to me.

 

-J.

[chrisco37]

What is "obvious" about the idea that most copies of a popular comic book from 1989 (that has never been worthless) have been destroyed?

 

I didn't say they were "destroyed". However as many have pointed out the comic was popular in its day, then not so much as a back issue, and then was re discovered again later. A lot can happen in that time to a book. I personally mis-placed, lost, or had stolen nearly half my OO Sandman collection. Where did they go? I thought I had them in that one short box but they're not there anymore ? What happened ?

 

I can't explain why there are scarce numbers of the book or on the census or out there on the open market. I can only speculate. And I simply choose to follow the publicly available data points to the logical conclusion that their survival rate is minimal. For whatever reason. I'm not sure why that riles people up. I have acknowledged other peoples' points as being valid feasible and possible. Taken together I do believe it explains "some" of the book's scarcity. Why no one else seems to want to acknowledge the possibility (probability) that the book is under represented simply because their survival rate is just plain less than what they wish to believe is truly a mystery to me.

 

-J.

 

Because, as numerous people have said throughout this thread but you continue to ignore, the collecting world is a lot bigger than the CGC census/graded comic market.

[Jaydogrules]

(with the exception of course being the #8 editorial variant which only has about 30 known surviving copies,

 

Interesting.

 

Where did you get this information?

 

 

Just took a quick look at the census.

 

-J.

 

There are 34 copies on the census.

 

What makes you think the census represents all surviving copies?

 

...."known" copies. There were what only 600 originally made and handed out in just two locations in California ? That particular issue has been sought after for some time. It's a safe bet the majority of them are known to the market at this point. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

You make a lot of assumptions about stuff you don't know about. I have 2 copies of the book in my collection, not slabbed. And I have sold at least 2 others that I know are not slabbed.

 

It's highly likely that most of the books are still out there in collections. I would guess there are at least 500 copies still in collections. Really almost no reason for any book from that time period not to have survived to this point. Sandman sold well from the time it came out and was a well loved titles at the time.

 

You make a lot of assumptions about what I do and do not know. Why don't you try staying on point for once and saving the condescending attempts at personal attacks to yourself. It makes you look unprofessional. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

No it doesn't. He was on point the whole time, apart from his one "opinion".

 

He gave you reasons, based on his experience as a dealer. Which you dismissed just like in the other thread.

 

He told you that he owns 2 himself. 2% of your theorized existing copies. What are we up to now? Over 50% of all the existing copies tracked down in just about 24 hours.

 

Keep going.

 

A dealer telling me he has sold two raw copies in all his years in the business is supposed to prove that the book is plentiful and falling out of the trees ? I don't get the point. He's a dealer I expect for him to have handled a lot of rare books (even rarer and far older than this one) at some point. And how do you know the raw copies he sold aren't one of the 30 slabs now? You don't. And neither do I. And yet you assume for some reason that you are right and I am wrong. Lots of haughty people around here.

 

-J.