comix4fun Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 Honestly, the impression this film made felt more like the strength of its female cast than anything else. In terms of being empowering and dynamic, it's the role of women hands down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantastic_four Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 6 minutes ago, comix4fun said: Honestly, the impression this film made felt more like the strength of its female cast than anything else. In terms of being empowering and dynamic, it's the role of women hands down. Slate had a podcast special on the film a few weeks ago, and Aisha Harris said she thought the women in Black Panther were portrayed in an even stronger way than they were in Wonder Woman. I have no opinion on that and didn't understand it. Were the Dora Milaje portrayed in a stronger way than the Amazons were? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aweandlorder Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 9 minutes ago, comix4fun said: Honestly, the impression this film made felt more like the strength of its female cast than anything else. In terms of being empowering and dynamic, it's the role of women hands down. To women - certainly. Most aa men, and even some women, I spoke with actually found kilmonger to be inspiring Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aweandlorder Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 Or maybe I should say intriguing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
comix4fun Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 Just now, fantastic_four said: Slate had a podcast special on the film a few weeks ago, and Aisha Harris said she thought the women in Black Panther were portrayed in an even stronger way than they were in Wonder Woman. I have no opinion on that and didn't understand it. Were the Dora Milaje portrayed in a stronger way than the Amazons were? It's entirely possible, depending on perspective. The majority of the Amazons in WW were decidedly one-note. They were badass fighters, so a little 2d in that regard. The Dora Milaje was incredibly 3 dimensional and (without hitting spoilers) , in many regards. They had the badass fighter aspect but there was a bit more complexity to them, overall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
comix4fun Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 Just now, Aweandlorder said: To women - certainly. Most aa men, and even some women, I spoke with actually found kilmonger to be inspiring He's a great character, for sure. The best villains are ones that you can actually understand, and at least partially empathize, with their motivations. I just meant as a complete cast, the women were strong and integral and necessary and heroic in a way that many films either miss or mess up. Aweandlorder 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantastic_four Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 1 minute ago, Aweandlorder said: To women - certainly. Most aa men, and even some women, I spoke with actually found kilmonger to be inspiring That's the realism in the film's politics I was referring to. What other comic book film has this many people feeling on a visceral level that the villain is right and the hero is wrong? Just as Stan Lee modeled Magneto on Malcolm X and Professor X on Martin Luther King, T'Challa is clearly modeled on King and Killmonger on Malcolm. But while we can understand Magneto's cause and perhaps be sympathetic with it, it's far more difficult to identify with the oppression of a fictional race of mutants than it is the real oppression of Africans throughout history. I can't think of ANY superhero movie that ties in that closely to real pain felt by billions of people. Aweandlorder 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantastic_four Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 (edited) 6 minutes ago, comix4fun said: The best villains are ones that you can actually understand, and at least partially empathize, with their motivations. That's why that scene where he challenged T'Challa made my jaw drop. My initial reaction to him was that he's right, Wakanda SHOULD be empowering Africans around the world. It took a few seconds for me to realize "wait, what are you actually going to do here? Arm all African nations, or to take over the world?" I never did become clear on what his end game might have been, did Coogler ever hint at it? Edited March 5, 2018 by fantastic_four Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
comix4fun Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 Just now, fantastic_four said: That's the realism in the film's politics I was referring to. What other comic book film has this many people feeling on a visceral level that the villain is right and the hero is wrong? Just as Stan Lee modeled Magneto on Malcolm X and Professor X on Martin Luther King, T'Challa is clearly modeled on King and Killmonger on Malcolm. But while we can understand Magneto's cause and perhaps be sympathetic with it, it's far more difficult to identify with the oppression of a fictional race of mutants than it is the real oppression of Africans throughout history. I can't think of ANY superhero movie that ties in that closely to real pain felt by billions of people. I don't think that's all that accurate as it pertains to T'Challa. King never advocated isolationism, he advocated outreach and the way T'Challa was up until the very end violated probably 1/2 of the core teachings of MLK in seeking non-violent social change. His eventual commitment to outreach, education and aid brought him in line with King's teachings more closely, but the narrative has him adopting the most noble parts of Killmonger's ethos and discarding the violence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantastic_four Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 (edited) 11 minutes ago, comix4fun said: I don't think that's all that accurate as it pertains to T'Challa. King never advocated isolationism, he advocated outreach and the way T'Challa was up until the very end violated probably 1/2 of the core teachings of MLK in seeking non-violent social change. His eventual commitment to outreach, education and aid brought him in line with King's teachings more closely, but the narrative has him adopting the most noble parts of Killmonger's ethos and discarding the violence. It was somewhat of an origin story in terms of Martin Luther King's non-violent approach was in that he at first just adopted his the philosophy of all previous Wakandan kings and later changed it to be one of activism like MLK based upon Killmonger and his dad's reasoning that they should be helping out the continent as a whole. I was trying to remember this after the film but couldn't--did they give any specific time frame for how long ago that vibranium meteor fell, or how many kings there were before T'Chaka? Edited March 5, 2018 by fantastic_four Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
comix4fun Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 Just now, fantastic_four said: It was somewhat of an origin story in terms of Martin Luther King's non-violent approach was in that he at first just adopted his the philosophy of all previous Wakandan kings and later changed it to be one of activism like MLK based upon Killmonger and his dad's reasoning that they should be helping out the continent as a whole. I was trying to remember this after the film but couldn't--did they give any specific time frame for how long ago that vibranium meteor fell, or how many kings there were before T'Chaka? It was thousands of years since the meteor hit from the prologue. They didn't specifically hit how many kings/panthers there have been but there's a scene in the "ancestral plane" (the second time T'Challa goes there) where there are several, as many as a dozen, standing behind T'chaka...but it's unclear if that's a family line or just past kings. There were 3-4 black panthers in the tree the first time T'Challa arrived there, but I think we can assume it's a literal "ancestral plane" and that it's just direct family line, being that Killmonger didn't see any them and just his own father. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aweandlorder Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 I hate to say it. And not to contribute to any racial tension that may have appeared in this thread (maybe just in my head) but I am more comfortable w people relating to the villain in BP in Killmonger than people relating to the villain in Batman in The Joker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bosco685 Posted March 5, 2018 Author Share Posted March 5, 2018 41 minutes ago, comix4fun said: It's entirely possible, depending on perspective. The majority of the Amazons in WW were decidedly one-note. They were badass fighters, so a little 2d in that regard. The Dora Milaje was incredibly 3 dimensional and (without hitting spoilers) , in many regards. They had the badass fighter aspect but there was a bit more complexity to them, overall. Having not seen the movie yet, I don't have that experiences just yet. In what way? Did they delve deeper into their structure and purpose? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
comix4fun Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 Just now, Bosco685 said: Having not seen the movie yet, I don't have that experiences just yet. In what way? Did they delve deeper into their structure and purpose? At least a couple of them, their relationships, their ethics and morals, their sense of duty and honor. At least in the case of the more name actresses they are more fully formed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bosco685 Posted March 5, 2018 Author Share Posted March 5, 2018 1 minute ago, Aweandlorder said: I hate to say it. And not to contribute to any racial tension that may have appeared in this thread (maybe just in my head) but I am more comfortable w people relating to the villain in BP in Killmonger than people relating to the villain in Batman in The Joker Is it because Killmonger had a best-intent purpose versus the Joker just wanting to spread chaos and society breakdown? From the way his role has been described, it just sounds like Killmonger had that going for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aweandlorder Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 2 minutes ago, Bosco685 said: Is it because Killmonger had a best-intent purpose versus the Joker just wanting to spread chaos and society breakdown? From the way his role has been described, it just sounds like Killmonger had that going for him. I just can't fathom anyone looking up to an insane psychopath as an inspiration. Sadly some do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bosco685 Posted March 5, 2018 Author Share Posted March 5, 2018 4 minutes ago, comix4fun said: At least a couple of them, their relationships, their ethics and morals, their sense of duty and honor. At least in the case of the more name actresses they are more fully formed. That does sound like they put more into it. Where with the Amazons because they were a brief part of WW's history it was just demonstrating they were warriors and everyone had equal rights. But not much more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bosco685 Posted March 5, 2018 Author Share Posted March 5, 2018 3 minutes ago, Aweandlorder said: I just can't fathom anyone looking up to an insane psychopath as an inspiration. Sadly some do Wait. That isn't part of the gang membership for Comics General? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
comix4fun Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 Just now, Bosco685 said: That does sound like they put more into it. Where with the Amazons because they were a brief part of WW's history it was just demonstrating they were warriors and everyone had equal rights. But not much more. It's mostly because one of them is a main cast member with A LOT of screen time. You get to see her interaction with the entire cast, including the other warriors, including a love interest, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldust40 Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 1 hour ago, jimjum12 said: Personally, I think it's refreshing..... and high time..... to watch a movie where the cool black guy doesn't get killed off ..... Judy and I are getting sick of that. GOD BLESS... -jimbo(a friend of jesus) Yes, I hate that predictable trope. Drives me mad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
