Black Panther official movie thread (11/3/17) 1 1

[fantastic_four]

33 minutes ago, Aweandlorder said:

I just can't fathom anyone looking up to an insane psychopath as an inspiration. Sadly some do

Only person I know of that's done that is James Holmes, the Aurora "Dark Knight Rises" premiere shooter, so yes, I would think the idea of idolizing Killmonger over Joker isn't even a controversial one.

[goldust40]

1 hour ago, fantastic_four said:

And now they have.  Which superhero do you imagine was a favorite of most black kids who aren't diehard fans like us prior to this?  And which one do you think it's now more likely to be?  That's the identity politics you're overlooking.

But I was wrong to say you're incapable of understanding it, which is why I deleted that from the quote within three minutes of posting it and regret you had to see it.  I apologize for that.  But I was confused as to how you could just summarily dismiss the strong impact on identity this character has the potential to have.  Before this, a black kid's favorite hero was most likely going to be Spider-Man, but now it's far more likely to be T'Challa, benevolent king of the most powerful nation on Earth.

I always liked the Black Panther character, especially the McGregor / Graham stories from Jungle Action (amongst others).

The thing about super-hero comics is that they are meant to be universal in their appeal - Spider-Man connects with the angsty teenager in all of us. However at least part of T'Challa's interest comes from his status as a royal, which is intriguing but not something that should necessarily be that significant for those who are not as politicized as Cornel West, for example.

If we're going to talk about black kids not just following but identifying with a character because of his racial background then that is purely about tribalism, and not about taking an artistic interest in the inner narrative a character should have in order to have a film made about him. In the Avengers Boseman portrayed a solid enough character, but in his own film he was a bland icon engulfed by drab polemic masquerading as humour. What did we learn about him, other than he was a supporting character in his own film, taking  second place to a political conundrum that most of the audience would be thoroughly conversant with?

Super-hero films are not real cinema as such - they are fun, lightweight slabs of formulaic entertainment that are not there to edify and be artistically developed at the same time. At least BP, which is no different regarding this, dispensed with any claims to  subtext by bashing us over the head with its message.

[namisgr]

4 hours ago, goldust40 said:

The fact that you have stated that I lack empathy because I didn't share your opinion on a film means that you have been successfully duped, and says far more about you than it does about me.

You're making me feel duped, too. 

I loved the African-inspired costumes.  I loved the soundtrack.  I loved the strong African female characters.  I loved the totally cool premise of an African nation being hidden, isolated, and technologically far ahead of any other.  I loved that the superhero wasn't yet another superpowered Caucasian American or Canadian male.  I loved that those of black African descent have a few heroes both male and female who look and speak more like them than Superman.  I loved the Korean action scenes and the visual representation of Wakanda.  I loved what the little boy on the Oakland playground said to T'Challa at the end.  And, yes, I love that there were so many black actors on screen, directed by a black who also wrote the movie.

Call these feelings about the movie what you will but, while considering it short of a truly great film, I loved the movie and loved the way it's touched an audience that's been too long underserved.  I don't think its great longer term achievement will come from any sequels or Panther-containing Marvel material, but from doors being opened to more culturally varied and interesting films being made going forward, seeing as everyone does now that they can be box office megablockbusters.

 

Edited March 5, 2018 by namisgr

[goldust40]

2 hours ago, Gatsby77 said:

1) Black Panther had already reached an audience much broader than comic fans due to Ta-Nehisi Coates signing on to write the comic two years ago. That was a _big_ deal, sort of equivalent to if Cornel West had written a solo Luke Cage comic in the late '90s. And Coates' run launched introduced the character to a huge audience that didn't normally read comic books.

2) As noted, Snipes campaigned to do Black Panther back in the mid-90s, before he even did the first Blade film. He tried to get it made for 2+ years. It was set up at Columbia with Snipes set to star and a screenwriter approved. See details on that here, as well as quotes from Tom DeFalco about it.

I really wasn't aware that Coates's run on the character was such a quantum leap for the franchise - sales figures don't seem to back this up and it was cancelled. If it was such a hit, why are they relaunching it again? (And can you imagine a hardline polemicist like West (who is somewhat opposed to Coates's neoliberalism) would've done with Cage? It wouldn't have been entertaining.)

As for Snipes, I imagine he would've done a good job as it sounds like it was a pet project for him.  But that option ended over two decades ago.

Edited March 5, 2018 by goldust40

[goldust40]

2 minutes ago, namisgr said:

You're making me feel duped, too. 

I loved the African-inspired costumes.  I loved the soundtrack.  I loved the strong African female characters.  I loved the premise of an African nation being hidden, isolated, and technologically far ahead of any other.  I loved that the superhero wasn't yet another superpowered Caucasian American or Canadian male.  I loved that those of black African descent have a few heroes both male and female who look and speak more like them than Superman.  I loved the Korean action scenes and the visual representation of Wakanda.  And, yes, I love that there were so many black actors on screen, directed by a black who also wrote the movie.

Call these feelings about the movie what you will but, while considering it short of a truly great film, I loved the movie and loved the way it's touched an audience that's been too long underserved.  I don't think its great longer term achievement will come from any sequels or Panther-containing Marvel material, but from doors being opened to more culturally varied and interesting films being made going forward, seeing as everyone does now that they can be box office megablockbusters.

What is so pioneering about this film, dammit?? There's been plenty of black cinema before, some of it excellent, some of it less so. So there's been a dearth of action heroes (but not a complete absence) who are of African descent? Great, let's have loads more, and could we leave the politics out of it next time?

I would like to know how a genre film of limited artistic ambition will open doors in terms of culturally varied films being made when there are already a vast amount of them already. Once again, you're turning a super-hero film into a cause celebre and a political catalyst for something, but you're not sure what it is.

[fantastic_four]

32 minutes ago, goldust40 said:

The thing about super-hero comics is that they are meant to be universal in their appeal - Spider-Man connects with the angsty teenager in all of us. However at least part of T'Challa's interest comes from his status as a royal, which is intriguing but not something that should necessarily be that significant for those who are not as politicized as Cornel West, for example.

If we're going to talk about black kids not just following but identifying with a character because of his racial background then that is purely about tribalism, and not about taking an artistic interest in the inner narrative a character should have in order to have a film made about him. In the Avengers Boseman portrayed a solid enough character, but in his own film he was a bland icon engulfed by drab polemic masquerading as humour. What did we learn about him, other than he was a supporting character in his own film, taking  second place to a political conundrum that most of the audience would be thoroughly conversant with?

Super-hero films are not real cinema as such - they are fun, lightweight slabs of formulaic entertainment that are not there to edify and be artistically developed at the same time. At least BP, which is no different regarding this, dispensed with any claims to  subtext by bashing us over the head with its message.

That overlooks the universal appeal of the heroic myth, a narrative form that's as old as human civilization itself and is present in art as old as archaeology has been able to find.  Whether it's the cave drawings at Lascaux, Greek and Roman myths, the Odyssey or Illiad, Beowulf, the Arthurian legend, American Westerns, Star Wars, or superhero films, tales of heroism have always held an important place in the minds of men and civilization as a whole as an example to aspire to, and as such there's every reason to believe it will endure indefinitely.

Black kids don't NEED a black superhero to look up to, and I doubt anything close to a majority find it hard to identify with Peter Parker just because he's white.  But the fact that they haven't had ANY major black character to admire is a huge problem, but not anymore.  That's why Snipes wanted to make this film himself, and it's why the film has social significance that stands alone in the superhero genre.  The only film that even seems similar is Wonder Woman.

Tribalism is endemic to the human condition.  We can wish it wasn't, but the reality is that it always has been and to a varying extent always will be.  Little girls will never identify with Superman like they do Wonder Woman, and you or I will never identify with T'Challa like black kids will.  I'm extremely happy they have their hero.  I live in a neighborhood that's 85% black, and I can't wait to see all the Black Panther costumes this Halloween.  

Edited March 5, 2018 by fantastic_four

[fantastic_four]

15 minutes ago, goldust40 said:

Great, let's have loads more, and could we leave the politics out of it next time?

While I admire your idealism and hope there's a far-off day akin to Gene Roddenberry's vision of humanity in Star Trek where we don't draw tribal lines, that's not how human beings work circa 2018.  Or are likely to even circa 2500.

[Pete Marino]

19 hours ago, JollyComics said:

I never knew it and I would try to be Costco member. I heard $50 membership for a year?

Get movie pass, $90 at costco for a full year.  My wife and I got it, and we've seen 4 movies each since the begging of the year, and have not had to pay any more $$.

[fantastic_four]

46 minutes ago, namisgr said:

Call these feelings about the movie what you will but, while considering it short of a truly great film, I loved the movie and loved the way it's touched an audience that's been too long underserved.

I don't think it was a great film, either, in terms of its construction.  I'm still debating where it should go in the top 10 or 20 just among superhero films.  I know for sure it's nowhere close to Dark Knight, but I may eventually decide it was better than Batman Begins, a film I place third in the genre.  Might take me another few viewings to decide and I expect it to land somewhere between 2 and 10, but the social significance within the genre is so huge it gets a lot of credit that override at least some of the film's flaws.

[ExNihilo]

2 hours ago, fantastic_four said:

That's why that scene where he challenged T'Challa made my jaw drop.  My initial reaction to him was that he's right, Wakanda SHOULD be empowering Africans around the world.  It took a few seconds for me to realize "wait, what are you actually going to do here?  Arm all African nations, or to take over the world?"  I never did become clear on what his end game might have been, did Coogler ever hint at it?

Spoiler

I was under the impression that T'Challa's idea of empowering African Americans around the world was by providing them with a safe place/platform to grow and develop.  Thus the center he was opening in Oakland.

 

[Bosco685]

54 minutes ago, fantastic_four said:

Only person I know of that's done that is James Holmes, the Aurora "Dark Knight Rises" premiere shooter, so yes, I would think the idea of idolizing Killmonger over Joker isn't even a controversial one.

I think the two of you both missed the point of any questions on this. OF COURSE nobody normal is going to relate to the Joker, blowing things up and killing people to spread chaos. It was more WHY Killmonger is relatable. And the answer still hasn't been given yet. Take a moment to read the question, versus a response-o-thon.

Was it because his agenda made more sense in bettering mankind in someway, and it was just an opposing view to T'Challa's?

[fantastic_four]

2 minutes ago, ExNihilo said:

2 hours ago, fantastic_four said:

That's why that scene where he challenged T'Challa made my jaw drop.  My initial reaction to him was that he's right, Wakanda SHOULD be empowering Africans around the world.  It took a few seconds for me to realize "wait, what are you actually going to do here?  Arm all African nations, or to take over the world?"  I never did become clear on what his end game might have been, did Coogler ever hint at it?

  Hide contents

I was under the impression that T'Challa's idea of empowering African Americans around the world was by providing them with a safe place/platform to grow and develop.  Thus the center he was opening in Oakland.

 

Sorry, I wasn't clear--I was confused about Killmonger's ultimate intention, not T'Challa's.  Was it just to arm Africa, or was it for Africa to enact retribution on the rest of the world?  He was so violent and sociopathic I can't rule out world domination as his goal, but I wasn't at all sure.

[ExNihilo]

1 minute ago, Bosco685 said:

I think the two of you both missed the point of any questions on this. OF COURSE nobody normal is going to relate to the Joker, blowing things up and killing people to spread chaos. It was more WHY Killmonger is relatable. And the answer still hasn't been given yet. Take a moment to read the question, versus a response-o-thon.

Was it because his agenda made more sense in bettering mankind in someway, and it was just an opposing view to T'Challa's?

side note: it's been 3 weeks and despite all your posts on box office figures, I'm a bit surprised you haven't seen it yet.  What's been keeping you?

[Bosco685]

1 minute ago, ExNihilo said:

side note: it's been 3 weeks and despite all your posts on box office figures, I'm a bit surprised you haven't seen it yet.  What's been keeping you?

Getting my wife to go. I got dogged out for going with friends the past few movies. So now it is on her.

[fantastic_four]

5 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

I think the two of you both missed the point of any questions on this. OF COURSE nobody normal is going to relate to the Joker, blowing things up and killing people to spread chaos. It was more WHY Killmonger is relatable. And the answer still hasn't been given yet. Take a moment to read the question, versus a response-o-thon.

Was it because his agenda made more sense in bettering mankind in someway, and it was just an opposing view to T'Challa's?

His line of thinking is that human history has seen Western nations colonizing and subjugating Africa, so he didn't want Wakanda to hide from the world, he wanted to use Wakanda's weapons and technology to arm Africa and turn the table on the colonizers.

Edited March 5, 2018 by fantastic_four

[Bosco685]

1 minute ago, fantastic_four said:

His line of thinking is that human history has seen Western nations colonizing and subjugating Africa, so as ruler of Wakanda he didn't want to hide from the world, he wanted to use Wakanda's weapons and technology to arm Africa and turn the table on the colonizers.

Now that does make sense. And I can see why a portion of the audience could relate to the thinking. Not the evil, dastardly Pinky and the Brain scheme 'I SHALL RULE THE WORLD!'

[ExNihilo]

2 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

Getting my wife to go. I got dogged out for going with friends the past few movies. So now it is on her.

That's brutal.  I mean, if she knows you like comics, I would hope she would have the presence of mind to go watch it with you sooner so as to avoid spoilers, reviews, hype.  Especially after the opening weekend.  After 3 weeks, pyschologically, the hype must continue to build until it reaches a point where the movie can't possibly meet those lofty expectations.

[fantastic_four]

Just now, Bosco685 said:

3 minutes ago, fantastic_four said:

His line of thinking is that human history has seen Western nations colonizing and subjugating Africa, so as ruler of Wakanda he didn't want to hide from the world, he wanted to use Wakanda's weapons and technology to arm Africa and turn the table on the colonizers.

Now that does make sense. And I can see why a portion of the audience could relate to the thinking. Not the evil, dastardly Pinky and the Brain scheme 'I SHALL RULE THE WORLD!'

In the moment he declared his intention I was all for it, but then I realized that the period of colonization is now over, so what, exactly, would Africa do with weapons more advanced than all the other countries?  I couldn't rule out world domination as his ultimate goal, but from what I could tell they didn't fully explore it enough to be sure.

[goldust40]

36 minutes ago, fantastic_four said:

54 minutes ago, goldust40 said:

Great, let's have loads more, and could we leave the politics out of it next time?

While I admire your idealism and hope there's a far-off day akin to Gene Roddenberry's vision of humanity in Star Trek where we don't draw tribal lines, that's not how human beings work circa 2018.  Or are likely to even circa 2500.

Roddenberry thought there might've been a chance by the 23rd century. We'll just have to wait...

[fantastic_four]

2 minutes ago, ExNihilo said:

6 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

Getting my wife to go. I got dogged out for going with friends the past few movies. So now it is on her.

That's brutal.  I mean, if she knows you like comics, I would hope she would have the presence of mind to go watch it with you sooner so as to avoid spoilers, reviews, hype.  Especially after the opening weekend.  After 3 weeks, pyschologically, the hype must continue to build until it reaches a point where the movie can't possibly meet those lofty expectations.

I avoided this thread and queued all the podcasts I had discussing it (Fat Man on Batman and a Slate Spoiler Specials podcast) until I saw it.  I didn't find it hard to avoid spoilers, but I do prefer to see things close to their release just to participate in discussion.  I didn't see Wonder Woman until the disc release and missed the thread on that entirely as a result, but nothing in it was spoiled for me.