2004 Original Art Acquisitioins

[THE_BEYONDER]

Marvel Team-up #72 cover 11/04

 

How much did it go for? That's the Byrne/Layton cover right?

[DESTRO-migration]

http://www.heritagecomics.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=814&Lot_No=6178&src=pr

[THE_BEYONDER]

Love that cover...but $5000+? No way would I have bid anywhere near that amount.

 

[DESTRO-migration]

Love that cover...but $5000+? No way would I have bid anywhere near that amount.

 

---------------------------------------------------------

 

But then you wouldnt have gottten it ; )

 

You collect art or comics, Beyonder,.. ?

 

The funny thing about art is that if you buy it,...and say to yourself,..I wont let it go for anything less than that,...UP TO THIS TIME IN MARKET HISTORY,...one has almost never been on the short side of this momentum market. Will that change?,...perhaps,...but IMO there's alotta GREAT stuff. Wait till some of the key stuff starts trading in the 100K's,...

 

I dont think we've seen nothing yet !!!!!

[heartened]

Love that cover...but $5000+? No way would I have bid anywhere near that amount.

 

---------------------------------------------------------

 

But then you wouldnt have gottten it ; )

 

You collect art or comics, Beyonder,.. ?

 

The funny thing about art is that if you buy it,...and say to yourself,..I wont let it go for anything less than that,...UP TO THIS TIME IN MARKET HISTORY,...one has almost never been on the short side of this momentum market. Will that change?,...perhaps,...but IMO there's alotta GREAT stuff. Wait till some of the key stuff starts trading in the 100K's,...

 

I dont think we've seen nothing yet !!!!!

 

I must say I have to agree (for now). Whenever I buy something, it always seems like I'm paying much more than it's worth. But then, the market catches up EXCEEDINGLY fast and I've been surprised (pleasantly) 100% of the time. So far, I've sold about 10 items over the years that I've been collecting, and I've (on average) doubled or tripled my money each time.

 

Will this be the case in the future? Who knows. But, I do think we're developing as a hobby much faster than comic books (even with CGC), and have a bigger shot at being a "legitimate" hobby to the lay public. No offense, but collecting art is not seen as being as "geeky" a hobby as collecting books. And that "societal acceptance" will allow our prices to blossom much higher and much more quickly. Only for "prime" art, of course.

[blowout]

Love that cover...but $5000+? No way would I have bid anywhere near that amount.

 

---------------------------------------------------------

 

But then you wouldnt have gottten it ; )

 

You collect art or comics, Beyonder,.. ?

 

The funny thing about art is that if you buy it,...and say to yourself,..I wont let it go for anything less than that,...UP TO THIS TIME IN MARKET HISTORY,...one has almost never been on the short side of this momentum market. Will that change?,...perhaps,...but IMO there's alotta GREAT stuff. Wait till some of the key stuff starts trading in the 100K's,...

 

I dont think we've seen nothing yet !!!!!

 

Where do you think the next generation of art collectors will come from? Most SA/BA fans have the earning capacity RIGHT NOW, so it makes sense that this is likely to be the price peak for material from that time period.

[COI]

No offense, but collecting art is not seen as being as "geeky" a hobby as collecting books. And that "societal acceptance" will allow our prices to blossom much higher and much more quickly. Only for "prime" art, of course.

 

Sorry, but I have to disagree here. Those who could afford the "prime" comic art could also afford "legitimate" art from internationally known artists. So why would someone, with no connection to the books, use their money to buy art that would be laughed at(in most cases) by the high art community?

 

And as for this whole "geeky hobby" thing, I've never personally experienced that reaction. I'm aware of the stereotype, but it has never affected me. It could be that I don't look like the typical collector(whatever that means), but it's more about being balanced. People will think you're if you obsess over any one particular hobby. If you like nice clothes or design(where there are a ton of hot chicks), some will call you gay. If you're too into sports, you're a meathead. Too into computers, you're an anti-social nerd, etc.......

 

So, using these ridiculous stereotypes that exist wherever there is an intense interest, inorder to make an argument for rising prices and the future potential of a hobby, is not a very solid foundation from which to justify these insane prices. Saying that art is "less geeky" than comics and therefore more of a stable market is not exactly going to inspire me to sell my comics and buy art.

[blowout]

Sorry, but I have to disagree here. Those who could afford the "prime" comic art could also afford "legitimate" art from internationally known artists. So why would someone, with no connection to the books, use their money to buy art that would be laughed at(in most cases) by the high art community?

 

I agree with this also.

 

Hari himself stated in a previous post that every collector of comic art he knows started out collecting books and then 'stepped up'. There would not be a market for comic book art without the comic books. The connection will always be there, and I just don't see anyone who didn't read/collect comic books becoming motivated to collect the artwork.

[Murph]

I've said it from day one. When you can pick up original pieces from WORLD RENOWNED artists for the SAME PRICE you can pick up a comic book cover from a COMIC-COLLECTOR ONLY known artist... something is just wrong.

It's interesting to hear you guys discuss it because I get the impression that there's a belief that comic art will continue to appreciate even beyond the already "strong" prices. I ask you.. who will pay 100,000 dollars for a comic book cover?? I can tell you there is NO cross-over appeal for traditional art collectors. Will it be from comic collectors? Doubtful, but it looks like some of you guys are hopin to convert a few of us.

 

Brian

[shrunkenhead]

Also agreed. There are precious few comic covers that could ever have shot at trading at the 100k zone...jb's Planet Comics #1 cover being one of them, maybe two or three others. As for the rest of 'em, sorry, ya'll are dreaming bigtime. The art world OPENLY LAUGHS at original art comic-stuff, with a few exceptions...you'll sometimes see R. Crumb in the galleries, for example. Other times you'll see a "comic art" display but it's almost purely for novelty or kitch.

 

I'm not saying that's fair or right, just the way it is, and it ain't changing anytime soon. The "fine art" world is notoriously stubborn. So those of you who collect comic cover art and pride yourselves on being "less geeky," it totally ain't so.

[COI]

I also get the impression that some fanboy's have deluded themselves into thinking that comic art is "fine art". I love it, and there has been some great work done in the comic context, but as far as the art world goes these pieces would be considered pop-culture trash. There are some exceptions, particularly with painters like Frazetta, but an art collector with millions of dollars invested in legitimate pieces is not going to be impressed with a Romita Sr. ASM cover.

 

A hobby is what it is, and that's it.

[DESTRO-migration]

Ultimately, ANYONE who claims to know the direction of ANY market is more probably incorrect than correct in his/ her market analysis. That said, I believe the case is very compeling that original art will grow as a market while comic books grow too, however, at a much less accelerated growth rate than comics.

 

The 'legitimate art world' in my opinion WILL recognize original comic art as an art form. In fact, I have heard rumors that the Whitney Museum will possibly be doing an exhibit on the works of Kirby, McCay, etc..in 2006. That said, recognition by 'the legitimate art world' is NOT necessary for continued growth in the original art sector. The community of collectors is presently VERY small and need only grow at the most conservative level to practically double in size (at present, there are only 1800+ members on http://groups.yahoo.com/group/comicart-l/

 

Yes, there are some distortions in the market -- no doubt. I personally think more attention should be paid to technique than nostalgia -- will the market going forward appreciate different considerations of 'value' - probably yes. Did this happen in comic books ? Absolutely,..we are both in dynamic and fluid markets. Hence, I agree that some art is unjutifiably high,.........but also,....much art is unjustifiably low (Case in point, Watchman, and Crisis Covers going for 75K and Romita/Ditko Amazing Spiderman Covers similarly going for 75K).

 

Comic books as commodities is developed market,..and the liklihood that the market population of comic book collectors continue to grow is in just as speculative as original art. Moreover, it is more likely that the original art market will grow as comic book collectors gravitate towards art - but it is less likely that art collectors will gravitate towards comics. Additionally, a major catalyst for growth in th comic book market is a developed 'comic industry'. Again, from what I have heard,....the new comics today have very low appeal.

[heartened]

No offense, but collecting art is not seen as being as "geeky" a hobby as collecting books. And that "societal acceptance" will allow our prices to blossom much higher and much more quickly. Only for "prime" art, of course.

 

Sorry, but I have to disagree here. Those who could afford the "prime" comic art could also afford "legitimate" art from internationally known artists. So why would someone, with no connection to the books, use their money to buy art that would be laughed at(in most cases) by the high art community?

 

And as for this whole "geeky hobby" thing, I've never personally experienced that reaction. I'm aware of the stereotype, but it has never affected me. It could be that I don't look like the typical collector(whatever that means), but it's more about being balanced. People will think you're if you obsess over any one particular hobby. If you like nice clothes or design(where there are a ton of hot chicks), some will call you gay. If you're too into sports, you're a meathead. Too into computers, you're an anti-social nerd, etc.......

 

So, using these ridiculous stereotypes that exist wherever there is an intense interest, inorder to make an argument for rising prices and the future potential of a hobby, is not a very solid foundation from which to justify these insane prices. Saying that art is "less geeky" than comics and therefore more of a stable market is not exactly going to inspire me to sell my comics and buy art.

 

Well, my comments have certainly stirred some debate. I meant no offense, and I was trying to speak as an outsider. After all, I'm an insider to both collecting the books and the art. I certainly don't fit the common stereotype, and I bet most of you don't either. It's a stereotype, and that means it's mostly wrong. But, like it or not, we as a community are victimized by it on some level, so trying to debate it with others in the hobby is a moot point.

 

If you don't think that other people see this as a weird or juvenile hobby, then you're simply choosing to ignore those reactions. For my part, I'm open about the hobby and try to explain my interest in it to all who would listen. And, I can tell you, I get more positive feedback about the art than I do about the books, that's for sure!!!

 

And I do therefore think that the art collecting part is more socially accepted. It is more "understandable" to pay high prices for art that is one-of-a-kind. People can, on some level, make sense of that. After all, spending money on one-of-a-kind pieces of art is not a foreign concept. And, no, this is not fine art, but comic art has more of a shot of becoming incorporated into the mainstream art community as a legitimate part of the American art form than do comic books into the fine book market. At least that's what I see. Many museums around the world, and especially in Europe, treat this as fine art. I have been asked personally by the Musee de Beaux Arts in Belgium, a highly respected museum, to loan some of my art for an exhibit last year. Comic art exhibits are becoming commonplace.

 

Please remember that I have spent a large amount of time collecting comic books and a large amount of time collecting the art, so I sit on both sides. I can certainly judge how lay people react to my comic book collection vs. my comic art collection, and all I'm saying is that they are much more enthusiastic and supportive of the art componenet than the books. I'll leave the "why" to others.

[heartened]

I've said it from day one. When you can pick up original pieces from WORLD RENOWNED artists for the SAME PRICE you can pick up a comic book cover from a COMIC-COLLECTOR ONLY known artist... something is just wrong.

It's interesting to hear you guys discuss it because I get the impression that there's a belief that comic art will continue to appreciate even beyond the already "strong" prices. I ask you.. who will pay 100,000 dollars for a comic book cover?? I can tell you there is NO cross-over appeal for traditional art collectors. Will it be from comic collectors? Doubtful, but it looks like some of you guys are hopin to convert a few of us.

 

Brian

 

Hi,

 

Actually, I'm not looking to convert anyone really. I love the art hobby, and so I share my experiences with people here.

 

Personally, I'd rather that prices stay lower so I can stay in the game! The rate of growth has certainly priced many people out of the market, unfortunately.

[heartened]

Also agreed. There are precious few comic covers that could ever have shot at trading at the 100k zone...jb's Planet Comics #1 cover being one of them, maybe two or three others. As for the rest of 'em, sorry, ya'll are dreaming bigtime. The art world OPENLY LAUGHS at original art comic-stuff, with a few exceptions...you'll sometimes see R. Crumb in the galleries, for example. Other times you'll see a "comic art" display but it's almost purely for novelty or kitch.

 

I'm not saying that's fair or right, just the way it is, and it ain't changing anytime soon. The "fine art" world is notoriously stubborn. So those of you who collect comic cover art and pride yourselves on being "less geeky," it totally ain't so.

 

Come on, man, I didn't say I was less geeky, nor did I say this hobby is geeky! I mentioned the perception that OTHERS have about us. Don't be so quick to be defensive.

[mr_highgrade]

Hi Hari, I am not to sure about that stereotype thing regarding comics or other collectibles. Part of my collection of "stuff" consists of Comics, Sportscards, Action figures, Coins, Swatches, etc.

And anytime I bought over a girlfriend or buddy, they were always blown away by my collection. Some of my ex-girlfriends even used to buy me comics for my collection.

[CGCMINT]

Can I still call you crazy?

[shrunkenhead]

Also agreed. There are precious few comic covers that could ever have shot at trading at the 100k zone...jb's Planet Comics #1 cover being one of them, maybe two or three others. As for the rest of 'em, sorry, ya'll are dreaming bigtime. The art world OPENLY LAUGHS at original art comic-stuff, with a few exceptions...you'll sometimes see R. Crumb in the galleries, for example. Other times you'll see a "comic art" display but it's almost purely for novelty or kitch.

 

I'm not saying that's fair or right, just the way it is, and it ain't changing anytime soon. The "fine art" world is notoriously stubborn. So those of you who collect comic cover art and pride yourselves on being "less geeky," it totally ain't so.

 

Come on, man, I didn't say I was less geeky, nor did I say this hobby is geeky! I mentioned the perception that OTHERS have about us. Don't be so quick to be defensive.

 

Well, it is geeky! No defense needed.

[DESTRO-migration]

<>

 

I know FOR FACT of SEVERAL pieces that have traded NORTH of 100K (Wally Wood DareDevil #5 for example ) or had offers of OVER 100K.

 

Its funny,...right now we are in a Collectibles Bull run,..so I dont mind 'per se' being lumped more along the spectrum as a collectible but ultimately we will transgress into the 'legitimate art market'.....thats where I see the market going.

 

Moreover,..and I dont mean this snidely,..spending several thousand on comic books could arguably be seen as 'cRaZY' as spending hundreds of thousands on art. I would think that having witnessed the growth of comic books as a hobby/ investment,..collectors would be more receptive to 'this side of the hobby (ie: Is spending 100K on a piece of art any more RIDICULOUS than spending 350K on the Pay Copy of Marvel #1 ?).

[heartened]

 

I know FOR FACT of SEVERAL pieces that have traded NORTH of 100K (Wally Wood DareDevil #5 for example ) or had offers of OVER 100K.

 

The question isn't whether art will hit the 100K mark anymore. It already has. The real question is whether this rapid growth is sustainable. I don't know the answer, but everytime I think prices are ridiculous they seem to double virtually overnight and they still get sold.