Batman Ashcan Scan

[ajaxfarrell]

Yeah, but I wasn't trying to pass it off as the real thing. I was just joking , then owned up to it right after I fooled you. I thought it looked pretty cool. This guy made a bogus cover and then acted the fool when the jig was up. Bye the way, I hope you didn't mind me fooling you with that cover. I just wanted to see if anybody would actually think it was real. It took me a couple of hours to do just right. Bye the way, here is what Detective Comics # 1 would look like it there wasn't that cover blurb in the lower right hand corner (for anybody that might have missed it).

[Forbush-Man]

Yeah, but I wasn't trying to pass it off as the real thing. I was just joking , then owned up to it right after I fooled you. I thought it looked pretty cool. This guy made a bogus cover and then acted the fool when the jig was up. Bye the way, I hope you didn't mind me fooling you with that cover. I just wanted to see if anybody would actually think it was real. It took me a couple of hours to do just right. Bye the way, here is what Detective Comics # 1 would look like it there wasn't that cover blurb in the lower right hand corner (for anybody that might have missed it).

 

I know you meant it as a joke & yes, you had me on it (I had stayed up the night before to close to 2:00 AM debating Poverty Row about Comics/Pulp Magazines, so I was blurry-eyed when you first posted. No harm, no foul. And "Yes", that was slightly different than starting a thread to confuse and then "Hey, I just happen to have that very Ashcan I was talking about, silly me!"

 

But let this be a lesson to you, the folks who come here to discuss comics don't take kindly to getting their chains yanked, so being up-front is crucial to your or anyone's credibility here.

 

As for that dang-nab Detective Comics varient # 1,... hhhhh

[DarrenSmith]

I find it funny how everyone ignored ravencomics when he said he had a third (previously unknown) Superman Ashcan, but for whatever reason people responded to him when he said he had the Bat-Man Ashcan. Is it possible he was scammed instead of him trying to scam board members? I mean maybe he purchased these fantasy books thinking they were real.

[Moondog]

Okay...

 

I just get back from 4 days in sunny L. A. and I discover that there's a foot of snow in my driveway and read that the "Holy Grail of Ashcans" has been discovered by a fellow who asked me (both publicly and privately) only last week if I thought it existed.

 

I've got to say that if this is a hoax the layout and design of this piece is exactly how it would look if it were authentic.

 

The blank price circle. The blank blurb box. The hyphenated name (BAT-MAN) in the logo. These elements are all consistent with the known ashcans I've inspected and documented (especially the hyphenated name - DC almost always used the logo of the character as the title of the ashcan because that's a trademark issue - not a copyright issue - so they wouldn't have simply printed BATMAN - they would use something as close to a logo as possible and that could have been the Bat-Man logo from the interior of Detective 27..). The fact that Detective 35 is 8 months after Batman's debut is similar to the time elapsed between Action 1 and Action 7 (the cover to the Superman ashcan) and its interior being the Batman-only story from Detective 37 is again consistent.

 

There is no copyright notice on the cover which a majority of ashcans have, but it's not a requirement of authenticity. The interior of the All-Star ashcan was the complete interior of Detective 37...so that's a bit of a coincidence...but not a deal killer.

 

So all the elements are in place...but this is just too weird. One side of me says: Woo-hoo! It exists! I want it! The other side says: No way. Circumstances are just too strange. And Raven - or David - as he calls himself in his emails - is a pretty strange/weird character or at least he writes like a strange/weird character. But if I dismissed all the strange/weird characters I know in comic-collecting circles, there wouldn't be many people left...

 

I think the key will be his willingness to give us the background of how/when/where he acquired it, and when he'll allow me to inspect it.

 

I, for one, hope it's authentic.

 

--Gary Colabuono

[Moondog]

Darren:

 

Raven didn't have an unknown third issue of the Supes ashcan. His scan was the unslabbed 9.0. Was he claiming that he owned a third copy?

 

--Gary

[greggy]

Darren:

 

Raven didn't have an unknown third issue of the Supes ashcan. His scan was the unslabbed 9.0. Was he claiming that he owned a third copy?

 

--Gary

Yes

[dgillock]

 

Even though I'm pretty sure I know how this movie is going to end, I can't stop watching!

[DarrenSmith]

Gary,

 

Yes he did. It is in the Rarest Golden Age Thread.

 

Darren

 

Below is a copy of it:

 

 

Re: Rarest Golden Age Books [Re: ravencomics]

#691476 - Sun Jan 16 2005 04:29 PM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply

 

superman comics nn ashcan is pretty rare , i have one of three known copies!

 

what do you think rare or not!!!

[Moondog]

Well, if he's claiming that the copy of the Superman ashcan that he owns is the scan he posted, then he's a liar.

 

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the scan is the 9.0 before it was slabbed. I owned that book for nearly 20 years and know every one of it's little nuances.

 

The first Mastro-Net auction has a full page scan as does a Heritage auction from last year. It's very apparent they're the same book.

 

BTW, I have not heard from Raven regarding inspecting his Bat-Man ashcan, yet he emailed me 6 times within two days last week.

 

Like I said, I hope it's authentic - but I'm skeptical...

[PovertyRow]

A dark blue on the original 'Tec #35 would have been a moire pattern of black printed over blue.

 

Don;t get this. Can you elaborate? I would have thought the dot angle of any plate combo would not result in a moire.

 

What I'm saying is that with a four color printing process (simplified- red ink, yellow ink, blue ink, black ink on white paper) "dark blue" is blue ink with a patterned black ink printed over it. The geometric pattern is referred to as a "moire". So, a slightly dark blue would be blue ink with a "light" moire of black ink printed over. A very dark blue would be blue ink with a denser moire of black ink printed over. Examples:

 

Blue Ink:

 

Blue with a little black printed over it:

 

Blue with more black printed over it:

 

The blue ink is the same. How "dark" it is is dependent on the amount of black printed over it. Make sense?

 

I do not get this. Each color (no need to simplify - yellow, magenta, cyan, black - and sometimes a 5th black with text only for fast changes at the press) is ANGLED DIFFERENTLY so that a moire pattern does not show. No way would a moire pattern appear if a blue and black neg (or plate) were used to create the b&w cover. I have to ask what samples are you using for these demo images?

 

::edit added::

 

Oh - I don;t see a real moire pattern in any of your examples.

 

Folks - if you want to see a moirte pattern get two hair combs. Hold them together and look through them at a light. Then keep one comb still and rotate the other. The psychedilic wave youe see shiftiong as the ANGLE shifts is a moire pattern.

 

In printing, if the angles of the different colors are not aligned properly, a moire pattern WILL occur. But if two negs or plate (in this case black and blue) were used to make a monochrome image, no moire pattern would exist.

[PovertyRow]

A dark blue on the original 'Tec #35 would have been a moire pattern of black printed over blue.

 

Don;t get this. Can you elaborate? I would have thought the dot angle of any plate combo would not result in a moire.

 

Dice! Oh Dice! Can you help?

 

In this case? No need for Dice! Pov will do!

[Forbush-Man]

A dark blue on the original 'Tec #35 would have been a moire pattern of black printed over blue.

 

Don;t get this. Can you elaborate? I would have thought the dot angle of any plate combo would not result in a moire.

 

Dice! Oh Dice! Can you help?

 

In this case? No need for Dice! Pov will do!

 

Go get 'em, Professor Poverty!!!

[Arty]

wake up pow..it's just a misuse of the word moire.

[dgillock]

Okay, I might be mis-using the word "moire". All I was saying is that if one were to use just the black plate from a four color separation set to print a single color ink cover, there could be printed areas on the cover that would appear gray from a distance- specifically areas of the black plate that were used to shade underlying colors darker, in particular to darken a blue or in the case of the Supe's Ashcan a red to a dark red. If my mis-use of "moire" offended anyone I apologize...

 

And just to clarify, I created the black overlays for the blue in Photoshop using a round halftone screen with a frequency of 30 lines/inch and an angle of 45 degrees.I think my example would have been clearer if I had used an opposing pattern for the blue as opposed to a solid blue ground, but that seemed a bit complicated for what I was trying to explain.

[Harvey Dude]

Well, if he's claiming that the copy of the Superman ashcan that he owns is the scan he posted, then he's a liar. ...

 

BTW, I have not heard from Raven regarding inspecting his Bat-Man ashcan, yet he emailed me 6 times within two days last week.

 

Like I said, I hope it's authentic - but I'm skeptical...

 

Hi Moondog,

 

I wrote Raven off when I pm’d him to ask him about the Superman ashcan that he allegedly owned.

I also asked if he will get it CGC’d for authenticity. His response was “vf will not slab it.”

He never mentioned that the copy he posted was the 9.0 Superman ashcan. Given Raven’s prior postings

on this board, there is no chance that the Batman ashcan is authentic.

I will eat my words if he can provide the provenance.

[Forbush-Man]

Okay, I might be mis-using the word "moire". All I was saying is that if one were to use just the black plate from a four color separation set to print a single color ink cover, there could be printed areas on the cover that would appear gray from a distance- specifically areas of the black plate that were used to shade underlying colors darker, in particular to darken a blue or in the case of the Supe's Ashcan a red to a dark red. If my mis-use of "moire" offended anyone I apologize...

 

And just to clarify, I created the black overlays for the blue in Photoshop using a round halftone screen with a frequency of 30 lines/inch and an angle of 45 degrees.I think my example would have been clearer if I had used an opposing pattern for the blue as opposed to a solid blue ground, but that seemed a bit complicated for what I was trying to explain.

 

Yes! yes! The Oppossing Pattern! Why didn't I think of this before! Now there will be no stopping me! Buh, Ha, Ha, Ha,Ha!!!!

 

Just Kidding,.......

[PovertyRow]

Okay, I might be mis-using the word "moire". All I was saying is that if one were to use just the black plate from a four color separation set to print a single color ink cover, there could be printed areas on the cover that would appear gray from a distance- specifically areas of the black plate that were used to shade underlying colors darker, in particular to darken a blue or in the case of the Supe's Ashcan a red to a dark red. If my mis-use of "moire" offended anyone I apologize...

 

And just to clarify, I created the black overlays for the blue in Photoshop using a round halftone screen with a frequency of 30 lines/inch and an angle of 45 degrees.I think my example would have been clearer if I had used an opposing pattern for the blue as opposed to a solid blue ground, but that seemed a bit complicated for what I was trying to explain.

 

OK. I centered on moire because if a moire pattern did occur in this, it would be quick evidence of a fake. The 4-colors when properly aligned will form a "rosette" pattern.

 

I agree with your choice of blue and black, as the black plate alone would not hold sufficient image to make a very strong cover. When I was in printing and we wanted to make a reference blueprint we would use cyan and black negatives.

[dgillock]

pov- Thanks for straighten us out on the terminology. Glad to now know the term "rosette".

 

BTW- Where the heck is raven? I would have certainly expected him to turn up with a Marvel Comics ashcan by now...

 

Also, is there a confirmed basis for the "theory" of a Batman ashcan? Was it ever advertised or mentioned in a trade publication or do people just hope it exists because of the confirmed existence of the other DC ashcans?

[PovertyRow]

dmg - No problem at all.

 

BTW - where does the Dope Crazed Kids come from???

[dgillock]

 

It a beater, but it's my beater! Just picked this up recently on Ebay. Hope to upgrade eventually, but for now I'm just happy to have a filler copy for my run.