Hall of Shame and Probation Rules DISCUSSION 4 4

[skypinkblu]

Yes you can, and you can't take a tax write off since although you can do something charitable here, we are not a registered charity and we won't be unless someone else volunteers to do all the paperwork, because I'm not.

 

I know this is not going to end and I've already smacked myself for answering now...but

 

I didn't post here expecting to get money back, I've said that already.

 

The reason I posted is because the mscn34 stopped communicating for a month after saying he was mailing those books. Had he written or called and said there was a problem, he needed time, lost the books, couldn't send them, he sprained his packing finger, whatever...there would have been no post by me.

 

That was why I spoke up about AjaxFarrel, too, he said he had mailed something and disappeared. I thought others would want a heads up.

 

I would like to think that people appreciate knowing when someone on the boards makes a commitment and then just leaves without saying what happened, because it could happen again to one of you.

 

In circumstances like these when things have not been sent but there has been communication, I have not posted, and I would not.

 

It's not really about the money, but that's not the reason for all of these long mulitple rants...nor is Paypal the reason, because they have happened before on many subjects...and and I'm sure they will continue, so I'm going to follow the advice of a friend with more common sense than I obviously have and just let him go on and on.

 

I know I'm a catalyst for him, so I'm not going to answer again, not only do I know I can't win an argument with him, I don't really want to bother. Life is too short and I'm not going to waste any more of it on this.

 

Have a nice day.

[joeypost]

Yes you can, and you can't take a tax write off since although you can do something charitable here, we are not a registered charity and we won't be unless someone else volunteers to do all the paperwork, because I'm not.

 

I know this is not going to end and I've already smacked myself for answering now...but

 

I didn't post here expecting to get money back, I've said that already.

 

The reason I posted is because the mscn34 stopped communicating for a month after saying he was mailing those books. Had he written or called and said there was a problem, he needed time, lost the books, couldn't send them, he sprained his packing finger, whatever...there would have been no post by me.

 

That was why I spoke up about AjaxFarrel, too, he said he had mailed something and disappeared. I thought others would want a heads up.

 

I would like to think that people appreciate knowing when someone on the boards makes a commitment and then just leaves without saying what happened, because it could happen again to one of you.

 

In circumstances like these when things have not been sent but there has been communication, I have not posted, and I would not.

 

It's not really about the money, but that's not the reason for all of these long mulitple rants...nor is Paypal the reason, because they have happened before on many subjects...and and I'm sure they will continue, so I'm going to follow the advice of a friend with more common sense than I obviously have and just let him go on and on.

 

I know I'm a catalyst for him, so I'm not going to answer again, not only do I know I can't win an argument with him, I don't really want to bother. Life is too short and I'm not going to waste any more of it on this.

 

Have a nice day.

 

Here is my take on it Sharon.

 

-PayPal personal is not for a sales transaction.

-While I chose to view it that way I am not the collective conscience of the boards. Everyone needs to make their own decisions.

-If you called PayPal and ask for permission to use the personal option for a charity thread you have not broken any rules. PayPal sets the rules and they made an exception for you.

-It is not something I would view as probation lists worthy.

 

[vaillant]

But if unethical behavior is allowed to flourish because "hey, XXXX does it, and XXXX is a respected board member, and YYYY also says there's no problem with it, so I guess it's ok!" then how long before everyone is using Paypal personal for purchases, because no one has a problem with it? After all...people have openly declared that they will continue to steal from Paypal by using Personal for purchases, and not caring one bit about it.

 

Indeed, almost no one has taken a stand with me and said "listen...Paypal provides a service, we should pay for that service, and using that service without paying for it really is stealing from them."

 

That is corruption, on a grand scale. And it wouldn't be half as bad, if we maintained no PL/HOS at all...at least we would be consistent. But it's made worse by giving lip service to fair play and justice, but ignoring it when it's convenient.

RMA, unethical behavior is not always algebra. While your principles when you start a discussion are almost always perfectly sound, there is clearly an element of free will involved when you do something bad.

I don’t think I have ever paid attention in the few cases someone sent me a PayPal payment with a "Personal" option, especially within a donation thread (which at least from one of the two parties is – indeed – a donation).

 

So I’ll make you a very simple example: if an institution, or the very institution which emanates "laws" becomes corrupted, what determines the bad quality of an action? Laws are not absolute, they are both a means and a way to test good will. The principles on which laws are based are as much important as the laws themselves, otherwise you’d be easily fallen "under the law", instead having the law as an element of liberation.

 

So, in short, while your point is clear, there are cases in which the contextual elements are as much important as the law itself, and this is clearly one of these. PayPal is not certainly an ideal example of crystal clear rules right now, as it seems it makes everything more and more complicate to prevent you from understanding what is going on when you use their services. Is that a highly ethical behavior? I think it is open to discussion. :shrug:

[HarveySwick]

-It is not something I would view as probation lists worthy.

 

 

If someone paid using Personal PayPal and the seller didn't ship the books, you don't think it's probation list worthy?

[vaillant]

-It is not something I would view as probation lists worthy.

 

 

If someone paid using Personal PayPal and the seller didn't ship the books, you don't think it's probation list worthy?

If it reassures you, I do.

[CAHokie]

-It is not something I would view as probation lists worthy.

 

 

If someone paid using Personal PayPal and the seller didn't ship the books, you don't think it's probation list worthy?

 

I cant fathom how it wouldnt be. It actually seems worse since a sympathetic story was used to help make the sales.

[wombat]

 

 

-It is not something I would view as probation lists worthy.

 

 

If someone paid using Personal PayPal and the seller didn't ship the books, you don't think it's probation list worthy?

 

I think he meant the act of paying with PayPal personal, but I could be wrong.

[vaillant]

I cant fathom how it wouldnt be. It actually seems worse since a sympathetic story was used to help make the sales.

Well, not that the donor benefits from it, but if he does not donate (for whatever reason) he should make up for it ASAP, and send explanations. :shrug:

[joeypost]

-It is not something I would view as probation lists worthy.

 

 

If someone paid using Personal PayPal and the seller didn't ship the books, you don't think it's probation list worthy?

 

Where did I say that Harvey? I said using personal PayPal is not probation list worthy. Not shipping an item is something altogether different regardless of payment type.

[joeypost]

 

-It is not something I would view as probation lists worthy.

 

 

If someone paid using Personal PayPal and the seller didn't ship the books, you don't think it's probation list worthy?

 

I think he meant the act of paying with PayPal personal, but I could be wrong.

 

You are correct.

[HarveySwick]

-It is not something I would view as probation lists worthy.

 

 

If someone paid using Personal PayPal and the seller didn't ship the books, you don't think it's probation list worthy?

 

I think he meant the act of paying with PayPal personal, but I could be wrong.

That's what I'm trying to clarify. I'd imagine that was his thoughts, but I don't want his words to be misconstrued to be used against Sharon's Probation List nomination.

[joeypost]

-It is not something I would view as probation lists worthy.

 

 

If someone paid using Personal PayPal and the seller didn't ship the books, you don't think it's probation list worthy?

 

I think he meant the act of paying with PayPal personal, but I could be wrong.

That's what I'm trying to clarify. I'd imagine that was his thoughts, but I don't want his words to be misconstrued to be used against Sharon's Probation List nomination.

 

Like I mentioned earlier, I do not like it when I am paid using PayPal personal. I myself don't use it unless it is within PayPal's guidelines. With that said, regardless of how a buyer decides to pay for an item, the seller should complete the deal. If in the end you have payment in hand AND the merchandise...something is amiss.

[HarveySwick]

So, if buyer pays for an item with Personal PayPal and the seller doesn't ship, this IS a Probation worthy nomination by the buyer?

[HighRadArt]

Whether its a Charity or Sales thread (a transaction that takes place here) and how its paid for (cash, money order, PayPal, chickens, cows) shouldn't matter. If you don't follow through on your end then you should know or expect to be put on the probation list.

[joeypost]

So, if buyer pays for an item with Personal PayPal and the seller doesn't ship, this IS a Probation worthy nomination by the buyer?

 

If a buyer pays using: (I will reiterate again) regular PayPal, personal PayPal, wampum, favors (you decide what defines a favor), indebted servitude, check, money order, livestock, beads, etc. If the seller receives payment and does not ship out the item and after being contacted numerous time still refuses to communicate while the buyer follows all the rules set out in order to nominate him/her for the probation list

 

I would think that is worthy.

[jaybuck43]

So I'm a bit confused. There's been a lot of talk about stealing from paypal etc. I looked through their terms of service. Here is how they define paypal personal:

"Personal Payment" means amounts sent between two individuals (not to or from a business) without a purchase. Examples of Personal Payments include sending a gift to a friend or paying a friend back for your share of a lunch bill."

 

Now as to Paypal's rules for using Paypal personal for paying for goods this is the only rule I can find:

 

"4.1 Receiving Personal Payments. If you are selling goods or services, you may not ask the buyer to send you a Personal Payment for the purchase. If you do so, PayPal may remove your ability to accept Personal Payments."

 

Note the phrasing "you may not ask" it's not "you may not receive". Also there is a conspicuously missing "you may not send" for paying for goods. The onus is on the merchant not the buyer. Thus I would think that paypal does not care if a buyer sends money via paypal personal, but wants to keep the bargaining power in check and prohibits the requesting by a merchant.

[wombat]

So, if buyer pays for an item with Personal PayPal and the seller doesn't ship, this IS a Probation worthy nomination by the buyer?

 

If a buyer pays using: (I will reiterate again) regular PayPal, personal PayPal, wampum, favors (you decide what defines a favor), indebted servitude, check, money order, livestock, beads, etc. If the seller receives payment and does not ship out the item and after being contacted numerous time still refuses to communicate while the buyer follows all the rules set out in order to nominate him/her for the probation list

 

I would think that is worthy.

 

Exactly. Has it ever been any different?

[joeypost]

So, if buyer pays for an item with Personal PayPal and the seller doesn't ship, this IS a Probation worthy nomination by the buyer?

 

If a buyer pays using: (I will reiterate again) regular PayPal, personal PayPal, wampum, favors (you decide what defines a favor), indebted servitude, check, money order, livestock, beads, etc. If the seller receives payment and does not ship out the item and after being contacted numerous time still refuses to communicate while the buyer follows all the rules set out in order to nominate him/her for the probation list

 

I would think that is worthy.

 

Exactly. Has it ever been any different?

 

To my knowledge...no. But I was clarifying my stance for the swick.

[RockMyAmadeus]

So I'm a bit confused. There's been a lot of talk about stealing from paypal etc. I looked through their terms of service. Here is how they define paypal personal:

"Personal Payment" means amounts sent between two individuals (not to or from a business) without a purchase. Examples of Personal Payments include sending a gift to a friend or paying a friend back for your share of a lunch bill."

 

Now as to Paypal's rules for using Paypal personal for paying for goods this is the only rule I can find:

 

"4.1 Receiving Personal Payments. If you are selling goods or services, you may not ask the buyer to send you a Personal Payment for the purchase. If you do so, PayPal may remove your ability to accept Personal Payments."

 

Note the phrasing "you may not ask" it's not "you may not receive". Also there is a conspicuously missing "you may not send" for paying for goods. The onus is on the merchant not the buyer. Thus I would think that paypal does not care if a buyer sends money via paypal personal, but wants to keep the bargaining power in check and prohibits the requesting by a merchant.

 

Again:

 

Paypal clearly defines what a "Personal payment" is. It means "without a purchase." If you are buying something, it's a purchase, regardless of why you're buying it. If you're buying something, Personal payment to pay for it is not an option (and the answer why is obvious: Paypal charges for their service.)

 

If you use their service, you should pay for their service (that is, the seller receiving payment should pay their fee.) Using their service in a manner that avoids those fees, then, is stealing.

 

Why this is even up for debate is unfathomable. You use a service, you pay for the service. Using a service, and not paying for it, is stealing.

 

Everything else is just endless dancing around the issue to justify stealing. Maybe someone else will come along and say it, because clearly the message is being lost in the messenger.

[HarveySwick]