Hall of Shame and Probation Rules DISCUSSION 4 4

[Awax]

[RockMyAmadeus]

It sucks that your name was called out, because I doubt anyone (I would hope) would think you were trying to cheat anyone. I completely agree that charity threads are a totally different animal than a normal purchase on the boards.

 

I called no one's name out, and made it a point to state several times that this had nothing to do with anyone personally. No one has been "accused" of anything, despite what they may claim. I know that will disbelieved by some, and the detractors feel it necessary to call me a liar, but that's the way it goes. We all have to account for ourselves in the end.

 

The facts remain: I have made this an issue for many years, and will continue to make it an issue, until it's no longer an issue, whether it's Fred, Steve, Mark, Sam, or the man on the moon involved.

 

And if one is making a donation, which is exactly what the Paypal personal is for, why would one expect merchandise in return, and if one WAS donating, why on earth would one make an issue of it if publicly if one didn't get the items? Either it's a business transaction, or it's a donation. It cannot be both. Making an issue of not getting merchandise puts a bit of a kibosh on the whole "donation" aspect, dunnit...?

[porcupine48]

Damn that man on the moooon!

Sorry,a Vonnegut quote got in my mind...

 

'Take a flying eff at the moooooon!'

Ill shut up before greenham must tell me to.

[porcupine48]

Andy is the only person i'll listen to.

Cause he deserves it.

[CAHokie]

I would disagree on the point that a donation cant be a transaction. As Sky said, many of us (perhaps yourself at some point) have purchased things that we really didn't want or care about because it was for charity. While I may not care much about the item itself, by principle alone, I should receive it. Someone who would lie or cheat in a charity thread is a special kind of low and should be called out if there is solid proof of wrongdoing.

 

She also made a point in the past of getting permission from Paypal, so that surely eliminates any hint of wrongdoing.

[@Captain_Sawyer]

Nice comic

[porcupine48]

A donation is a donation.You get nothing,besides maybe a tax slip in return.buying something in a charity thread,if you want it really or not,is a purchase ,and that requires a transaction.

Just saying.

[RockMyAmadeus]

I would disagree on the point that a donation cant be a transaction. As *** said, many of us (perhaps yourself at some point) have purchased things that we really didn't want or care about because it was for charity. While I may not care much about the item itself, by principle alone, I should receive it. Someone who would lie or cheat in a charity thread is a special kind of low and should be called out if there is solid proof of wrongdoing.

 

Understood completely.

 

However.

 

If the spirit of the act is to help someone out....would it be fair to make an issue of it? If one "didn't really want the merchandise", and was "just doing it to help someone out", then what does it matter if the merchandise never came?

 

If the spirit of the act is a transaction...then it's not a donation.

 

What is the motive when one decides if something is a transaction, or is a donation? Again: it cannot be both. It cannot be "this part is business, and this part is donation" unless they are separate transactions, and then the business part would be strictly business.

 

Was there a "charity thread"? Or just a regular sales thread, whereby someone had to sell for a stated need?

 

If the former, who cares if the merchandise never shows up, though granted, in principle, one should receive it? Isn't the goal to help someone? And isn't that person helped even if that person was really a liar and a thief?

 

Is charity only charity if it's to "good" people? Is charity no longer valid if it ends up in the hands of people we find out aren't so good? Is our giving lessened by finding out that the recipient was less than honorable? In which case, do we demand it back? And if we demand it back...was it really charity to begin with?

 

What does that say about OUR motives, if charity is conditional upon our determination of the worthiness of the recipient? (And, oughtn't that determination be cemented prior to donation?) Is "charity, with strings..." really charity?

 

Regardless of alllll of that philosophical meandering, and whatever justification may come, Paypal's TOS is still clear: Personal means without a purchase.

 

One cannot simply decide "well, this purchase is really more of a donation, so Paypal's terms don't really apply in this case." That's not for an individual to determine on their own. If there's a purchase...it's not a donation. If it's a donation....merchandise shouldn't be coming back. If you're giving someone money, with the expectation of receiving something, anything, in return...it's not a gift, it's a purchase, whether you believe your purchase was a "donation" or not.

 

It's really pretty cut and dried.

 

She also made a point in the past of getting permission from Paypal, so that surely eliminates any hint of wrongdoing.

 

Again, not about anyone or any particular transaction. This issue comes up time and time and time again, and needs to be addressed.

[RockMyAmadeus]

A donation is a donation.You get nothing,besides maybe a tax slip in return.buying something in a charity thread,if you want it really or not,is a purchase ,and that requires a transaction.

Just saying.

 

[Red84]

It sucks that your name was called out, because I doubt anyone (I would hope) would think you were trying to cheat anyone. I completely agree that charity threads are a totally different animal than a normal purchase on the boards.

 

I called no one's name out, and made it a point to state several times that this had nothing to do with anyone personally. No one has been "accused" of anything, despite what they may claim. I know that will disbelieved by some, and the detractors feel it necessary to call me a liar, but that's the way it goes. We all have to account for ourselves in the end.

 

The facts remain: I have made this an issue for many years, and will continue to make it an issue, until it's no longer an issue, whether it's Fred, Steve, Mark, Sam, or the man on the moon involved.

 

And if one is making a donation, which is exactly what the Paypal personal is for, why would one expect merchandise in return, and if one WAS donating, why on earth would one make an issue of it if publicly if one didn't get the items? Either it's a business transaction, or it's a donation. It cannot be both. Making an issue of not getting merchandise puts a bit of a kibosh on the whole "donation" aspect, dunnit...?

 

The item is the donation, not the payment for the item. No different than any charity auction where items are donated and people bid (often more than they would in a standard transaction) for those items. Not shipping the item when it was the donation is far worse than not shipping an item sold in a regular transaction.

[CAHokie]

A donation is a donation.You get nothing,besides maybe a tax slip in return.buying something in a charity thread,if you want it really or not,is a purchase ,and that requires a transaction.

Just saying.

 

I see your point, but I doubt many charity thread are going to be tax deductible on the boards. So if Paypal says it is ok to send friends and family for a charity thread sale, and the seller/donator never sends it, the person should suck it up because it was a charity thread? That just doesn't sound right....

[RockMyAmadeus]

It sucks that your name was called out, because I doubt anyone (I would hope) would think you were trying to cheat anyone. I completely agree that charity threads are a totally different animal than a normal purchase on the boards.

 

I called no one's name out, and made it a point to state several times that this had nothing to do with anyone personally. No one has been "accused" of anything, despite what they may claim. I know that will disbelieved by some, and the detractors feel it necessary to call me a liar, but that's the way it goes. We all have to account for ourselves in the end.

 

The facts remain: I have made this an issue for many years, and will continue to make it an issue, until it's no longer an issue, whether it's Fred, Steve, Mark, Sam, or the man on the moon involved.

 

And if one is making a donation, which is exactly what the Paypal personal is for, why would one expect merchandise in return, and if one WAS donating, why on earth would one make an issue of it if publicly if one didn't get the items? Either it's a business transaction, or it's a donation. It cannot be both. Making an issue of not getting merchandise puts a bit of a kibosh on the whole "donation" aspect, dunnit...?

 

The item is the donation, not the payment for the item. No different than any charity auction where items are donated and people bid (often more than they would in a standard transaction) for those items.

 

1. The items weren't donations by the owner. They were being sold by the owner, on behalf of himself. That isn't charity, that's commerce.

 

2. If the items WERE the donation, and "payment for the item" is NOT, as you state, then payment for the item is a regular purchase, and not eligible for Paypal personal. The donation would be on the part of the owner of the items, not the buyer.

 

People bidding in charity auctions are bidding because they expect something back in return. They are buying something.

 

That is, they are purchasing something.

 

Whether they pay more than they would otherwise isn't the point.

 

They are BUYING SOMETHING.

 

That makes it a PURCHASE, regardless of what they call it in their head. They exchange money for goods. Whether they overpay for that item "for charity" doesn't mean they don't get something in return.

 

And in any event, that still doesn't mean the buyer is making a donation. They exchange money for goods. Buying things for money is buying things for money...not a donation.

 

And thus, Paypal's terms of "without a purchase" would apply.

 

A person can't decide, unilaterally, that "I'm buying something, but I'm really only doing it to help someone out, because:charity " and thus set aside Paypal's TOS of their own accord. If that were the case, then I could simply decide that my Batman #232 9.6 that I paid $2,000 for is really only worth 15 cents, and the rest is a "donation, because I want to help the seller out."

 

No, that's why the terms are what they are: to prevent people from deciding on their own what is, and what is not, a certain transaction. The rules say "without a purchase." If you're buying something...it's a purchase, regardless of the amount you pay, or why you paid it.

[RockMyAmadeus]

A donation is a donation.You get nothing,besides maybe a tax slip in return.buying something in a charity thread,if you want it really or not,is a purchase ,and that requires a transaction.

Just saying.

 

I see your point, but I doubt many charity thread are going to be tax deductible on the boards. So if Paypal says it is ok to send friends and family for a charity thread sale, and the seller/donator never sends it, the person should suck it up because it was a charity thread? That just doesn't sound right....

 

Paypal doesn't say it is ok to send Personal for a charity thread "sale."

 

If you buy something...regardless of why....it's a purchase. A purchase is not allowed to be sent via Paypal personal.

 

If Paypal waives that fee on a case by case basis, that is PAYPAL'S decision to make, not a user's. If someone can convince Paypal to set aside their TOS for a specific transaction, more power to them, but that would be a negotiated situation of which Paypal was a party, not a disregarding of Paypal's terms on one's own accord, simply because one decided "charity."

 

And it brings us back to the question...if you're buying something, with the expectation of receiving something...it's not charity on your part, regardless of what you call it or what you pay.

 

You're simply buying something. And if you make an issue of it after the fact, it definitely wasn't charity. You purchased something you didn't get.

[Red84]

A donation is a donation.You get nothing,besides maybe a tax slip in return.buying something in a charity thread,if you want it really or not,is a purchase ,and that requires a transaction.

Just saying.

 

I see your point, but I doubt many charity thread are going to be tax deductible on the boards. So if Paypal says it is ok to send friends and family for a charity thread sale, and the seller/donator never sends it, the person should suck it up because it was a charity thread? That just doesn't sound right....

 

Paypal doesn't say it is ok to send Personal for a charity thread "sale."

 

If you buy something...regardless of why....it's a purchase. A purchase is not allowed to be sent via Paypal personal.

 

If Paypal waives that fee on a case by case basis, that is PAYPAL'S decision to make, not a user's. If someone can convince Paypal to set aside their TOS for a specific transaction, more power to them, but that would be a negotiated situation of which Paypal was a party, not a disregarding of Paypal's terms on one's own accord, simply because one decided "charity."

 

And it brings us back to the question...if you're buying something, with the expectation of receiving something...it's not charity on your part, regardless of what you call it or what you pay.

 

You're simply buying something. And if you make an issue of it after the fact, it definitely wasn't charity. You purchased something you didn't get.

 

I agree with all of that you've said, but to me, that still doesn't justify barring a PL nomination in the event that the purchaser does not receive their item. You can argue which wrong is greater (I think not shipping the books is the greater wrong), but that doesn't change the fact that only 1 of the 2 board participants in the transaction was wronged; and therefore, only 1 board member's actions is a threat to future board members. The Probation List is there to warn board members of other members who are dangerous to deal with; not to announce whether someone may or may not be a hypocrite. That goes back to my emphasis on the Probation List being about interaction between two board members. PayPal, being a third party, is not relevant to the Probation List.

[RockMyAmadeus]

A donation is a donation.You get nothing,besides maybe a tax slip in return.buying something in a charity thread,if you want it really or not,is a purchase ,and that requires a transaction.

Just saying.

 

I see your point, but I doubt many charity thread are going to be tax deductible on the boards. So if Paypal says it is ok to send friends and family for a charity thread sale, and the seller/donator never sends it, the person should suck it up because it was a charity thread? That just doesn't sound right....

 

Paypal doesn't say it is ok to send Personal for a charity thread "sale."

 

If you buy something...regardless of why....it's a purchase. A purchase is not allowed to be sent via Paypal personal.

 

If Paypal waives that fee on a case by case basis, that is PAYPAL'S decision to make, not a user's. If someone can convince Paypal to set aside their TOS for a specific transaction, more power to them, but that would be a negotiated situation of which Paypal was a party, not a disregarding of Paypal's terms on one's own accord, simply because one decided "charity."

 

And it brings us back to the question...if you're buying something, with the expectation of receiving something...it's not charity on your part, regardless of what you call it or what you pay.

 

You're simply buying something. And if you make an issue of it after the fact, it definitely wasn't charity. You purchased something you didn't get.

 

I agree with all of that you've said, but to me, that still doesn't justify barring a PL nomination in the event that the purchaser does not receive their item. You can argue which wrong is greater (I think not shipping the books is the greater wrong), but that doesn't change the fact that only 1 of the 2 board participants in the transaction was wronged; and therefore, only 1 board member's actions is a threat to future board members. The Probation List is there to warn board members of other members who are dangerous to deal with; not to announce whether someone may or may not be a hypocrite. That goes back to my emphasis on the Probation List being about interaction between two board members. PayPal, being a third party, is not relevant to the Probation List.

 

I agree with you...not sending out merchandise IS the greater wrong in a single case situation. Granted. And I agree with what you've said here, as I have said at many points in this conversation.

 

But that doesn't negate the lack of consistency, and if we're to maintain integrity in one area, we ought to maintain it in every area, and hold everyone to the same standard. Two wrongs don't make a right, but pretending one of the wrongs didn't happen or isn't important or isn't a wrong is as grave an injustice as the other, because it has a general corrupting influence and, more importantly, is cumulative.

 

In the former, once the offender is found out, that pretty much puts the clamps on that particular offender, even if they managed to take down a few members at once.

 

But if unethical behavior is allowed to flourish because "hey, XXXX does it, and XXXX is a respected board member, and YYYY also says there's no problem with it, so I guess it's ok!" then how long before everyone is using Paypal personal for purchases, because no one has a problem with it? After all...people have openly declared that they will continue to steal from Paypal by using Personal for purchases, and not caring one bit about it.

 

Indeed, almost no one has taken a stand with me and said "listen...Paypal provides a service, we should pay for that service, and using that service without paying for it really is stealing from them."

 

That is corruption, on a grand scale. And it wouldn't be half as bad, if we maintained no PL/HOS at all...at least we would be consistent. But it's made worse by giving lip service to fair play and justice, but ignoring it when it's convenient.

 

What is the greater injustice, accumulated? What's worse? One blow from a rotten seller? Or death by 1,000 tiny cuts to Paypal? A person who has no problem using Personal for purchases will do it as often as they like, and the only thing stopping them is their own conscience.

 

I have zero doubt that the amount of money that's been stolen from Paypal...3% here, 3% there, pretty soon we're talking real money...positively dwarfs the amount of money individuals have lost from bad transactions here on the boards. Dwarfs it. I have no way to prove that, but I suspect it's absolutely true.

 

How many people have never had a problem with sending money via Personal, but have cumulatively stolen hundreds, or thousands, from Paypal over the years? "Hey, Fred, I'll sell you that book for $1,000, but I don't want to pay the $29 in fees it will cost me. How's about sending it to me Personal?"

 

I suspect that answer is: not an insignificant amount.

[porcupine48]

A donation is a donation.You get nothing,besides maybe a tax slip in return.buying something in a charity thread,if you want it really or not,is a purchase ,and that requires a transaction.

Just saying.

 

I see your point, but I doubt many charity thread are going to be tax deductible on the boards. So if Paypal says it is ok to send friends and family for a charity thread sale, and the seller/donator never sends it, the person should suck it up because it was a charity thread? That just doesn't sound right....

Oh,no,I never said the person should not receive the item they purchased.Not at all.Just saying,it is a purchase.Not a donation.And in the spirit of helping someone else,I wouldn't think you should worry about it being tax deductible... Just saying,besides a warm,fuzzy feeling ,you could only,maybe ,get a tax receipt...for a DONATION.

[porcupine48]

And i love you all,

God bless!

Jimmers

[wombat]

And i love you all,

God bless!

Jimmers

 

You're a good porcupine jimmers.

Edited July 14, 2015 by wombat

[DavidTheDavid]

You can buy things from friends and family, you know.

[Ryan.]

Why make comments like this? To stir the pot.

 

In light of subsequent posts I deleted my comment.