US vs UK editions

[the blob]

And speaking of ultra-rare "foreign reprints" - here's another one of my pride and joys...

 

Triumph no.772 from Aug 1939 (British)

 

Superman's 1st appearance outside America

original cover by John McCail

 

 

 

ok, that is cool. i think the original cover art puts that on a different footing, except you can't see the "S" on him

[EwanUK]

EwanUK... just curious, would you have bid more than what it went for.

 

If I had had the available funds, yes - but it's a out of range for me right now

 

Considering the previous discussions, I think it's a great price though

 

I was also genuinely interested how a copy has remained in such condition considering 1963 is really pre-UK fandom - must be quite a story

 

The top pence AF 15 was bought for around $6,000 I recall? Would've certainly been after that

[the blob]

pence copies = bad

 

but

 

canadian copies = good (at least with copper age books)

 

doesn't make a lot of sense to me

 

with that said, i too would be hesitant to plunk down huge money on a pence SA key, but i don't differentiate for the $1-$5 BA books I tend to buy

[gadzukes]

EwanUK... just curious, would you have bid more than what it went for.

 

If I had had the available funds, yes - but it's a out of range for me right now

 

Considering the previous discussions, I think it's a great price though

 

I was also genuinely interested how a copy has remained in such condition considering 1963 is really pre-UK fandom - must be quite a story

 

The top pence AF 15 was bought for around $6,000 I recall? Would've certainly been after that

 

It was in a purple label though when I bought it, so there was some risk involved with that $6000. I got lucky, it only had one small color touch on it. I had Matt Nelson remove it and resub it. Came back 7.0 Blue.

[mycomicshop]

Jaydog, you really nailed it with the whole 50-55% value estimate.

 

I sure thought it would go at least a little higher.

 

I wonder if no current price data on a 9.2 made the bidders skittish to go any higher? The $29,422 is about 61% of the last cent copy sale.

 

If the seller is the same person who bought it in 2004 at $8913, then they should be very happy. The comic gained more than 10% every year they owned it. Not bad.

 

Also of note... at $29,422 this pence copy ends up being very close to the current price of a 9.0 cent copy ($32,265).

 

 

Pegging a FMV number on a book this high up and thinly traded isn't an exact science. I'd put the FMV for a hypothetical equivalent US copy at closer to $48-50K for these reasons:

 

- the book we auctioned had off-white pages

- the most recent sale of a US 9.2, the $48,468 in 2013, had OWW pages

- the stronger sale before that, the $62,140 in 2012, had white pages

- the 2011 $60,000 sale had off-white pages too, but that's both the oldest of the three and appears to be a fixed price sale rather than an auction result

 

If you go with a comparable US FMV of $48-50K, the $29,422 auction for the pence copy is closer to 60% than 50%. I do generally agree that ~50% of US value is a good rule of thumb. I think this book went above that somewhat because it stands out: being the highest graded pence X-Men 1 by multiple grade steps, and also standing out as the highest grade among any of the pence copy Silver Age Marvel keys. For comparison, on the US census for X-Men #1 there are fifteen 9.2s and twelve 9.4s.

[Jaydogrules]

Jaydog, you really nailed it with the whole 50-55% value estimate.

 

I sure thought it would go at least a little higher.

 

I wonder if no current price data on a 9.2 made the bidders skittish to go any higher? The $29,422 is about 61% of the last cent copy sale.

 

If the seller is the same person who bought it in 2004 at $8913, then they should be very happy. The comic gained more than 10% every year they owned it. Not bad.

 

Also of note... at $29,422 this pence copy ends up being very close to the current price of a 9.0 cent copy ($32,265).

 

 

Pegging a FMV number on a book this high up and thinly traded isn't an exact science. I'd put the FMV for a hypothetical equivalent US copy at closer to $48-50K for these reasons:

 

- the book we auctioned had off-white pages

- the most recent sale of a US 9.2, the $48,468 in 2013, had OWW pages

- the stronger sale before that, the $62,140 in 2012, had white pages

- the 2011 $60,000 sale had off-white pages too, but that's both the oldest of the three and appears to be a fixed price sale rather than an auction result

 

If you go with a comparable US FMV of $48-50K, the $29,422 auction for the pence copy is closer to 60% than 50%. I do generally agree that ~50% of US value is a good rule of thumb. I think this book went above that somewhat because it stands out: being the highest graded pence X-Men 1 by multiple grade steps, and also standing out as the highest grade among any of the pence copy Silver Age Marvel keys. For comparison, on the US census for X-Men #1 there are fifteen 9.2s and twelve 9.4s.

 

I'd have to strongly disagree with your current FMV for a comparable 9.2 cents copy. You are giving it a value of $48k, which is what one 9.2 cents copy sold for nearly two years ago.

 

That is, therefore, a nonsensical and unsupported value estimate.

 

Simply giving a cents copy the same relative rate of appreciation of approximately 10% per annum that we are affording the comparable pence copy (as well as other lower graded cents copies of X men 1), the value is indeed closer to the $55K estimate that others have already agreed upon before the final result of that pence copy was even known. So let's not move the goal posts now.

 

Indeed, the $55K FMV estimate on a comparable cents copy is on the low side of what some have said. There were estimates as high as $58K.

 

In determining the percentage FMV that the pence copy ultimate sold for, I actually went with the *lowest* FMV for a cents copy that was estimated.

 

Thus, the pence copy realized a sale at about 53.5% of a comparable original American copy.

 

-J.

[mycomicshop]

Jaydog, you really nailed it with the whole 50-55% value estimate.

 

I sure thought it would go at least a little higher.

 

I wonder if no current price data on a 9.2 made the bidders skittish to go any higher? The $29,422 is about 61% of the last cent copy sale.

 

If the seller is the same person who bought it in 2004 at $8913, then they should be very happy. The comic gained more than 10% every year they owned it. Not bad.

 

Also of note... at $29,422 this pence copy ends up being very close to the current price of a 9.0 cent copy ($32,265).

 

 

Pegging a FMV number on a book this high up and thinly traded isn't an exact science. I'd put the FMV for a hypothetical equivalent US copy at closer to $48-50K for these reasons:

 

- the book we auctioned had off-white pages

- the most recent sale of a US 9.2, the $48,468 in 2013, had OWW pages

- the stronger sale before that, the $62,140 in 2012, had white pages

- the 2011 $60,000 sale had off-white pages too, but that's both the oldest of the three and appears to be a fixed price sale rather than an auction result

 

If you go with a comparable US FMV of $48-50K, the $29,422 auction for the pence copy is closer to 60% than 50%. I do generally agree that ~50% of US value is a good rule of thumb. I think this book went above that somewhat because it stands out: being the highest graded pence X-Men 1 by multiple grade steps, and also standing out as the highest grade among any of the pence copy Silver Age Marvel keys. For comparison, on the US census for X-Men #1 there are fifteen 9.2s and twelve 9.4s.

 

I'd have to strongly disagree with your current FMV for a comparable 9.2 cents copy. You are giving it a value of $48k, which is what one 9.2 cents copy sold for nearly two years ago.

 

That is, therefore, a nonsensical and unsupported value estimate.

 

Simply giving a cents copy the same relative rate of appreciation of approximately 10% per annum that we are affording the comparable pence copy (as well as other lower graded cents copies of X men 1), the value is indeed closer to the $55K estimate that others have already agreed upon before the final result of that pence copy was even known. So let's not move the goal posts now.

 

Indeed, the $55K FMV estimate on a comparable cents copy is on the low side of what some have said. There were estimates as high as $58K.

 

In determining the percentage FMV that the pence copy ultimate sold for, I actually went with the *lowest* FMV for a cents copy that was estimated.

 

Thus, the pence copy realized a sale at about 53.5% of a comparable original American copy.

 

-J.

 

Nonsensical and unsupported?

 

I prefaced my remarks by saying that arriving at a FMV is not an exact science, then provided my *opinion* of FMV and some simple factual reasons like page quality that influenced my estimate. For high grade keys, it doesn't make sense to treat a book with CROW or OW pages as interchangeable with a book with W pages.

 

I'm not sure what the basis is for the 10% annual rate of appreciation that you're referencing. I don't see any such trend in the GPA data for 9.0 and 9.2 X-Men 1's over the past few years. Lower grades are appreciating, but there's a huge gulf between them and the 9.0s and 9.2s. The 9.4s appear to be depreciating, if anything.

 

I'm not saying my estimate of FMV is the one true answer any more than I'm saying your estimate of FMV is wrong. If you calculate it differently, that's totally fine. For my own purposes, if I'm contemplating buying an X-Men #1 CGC 9.2 with OW pages for resale, I'm going to buy it based on the assumption that it could sell for $48-50K. That's what FMV means to me. It's certainly possible for me to be pleasantly surprised with a sale higher than $50K, but I'm not going to bet on it given that the most recent recorded sale, with better OW-W pages, went for $48,468.

[thunsicker]

Uh-oh. You brought up page quality with the Global Warming Page Quality denier.

[Jaydogrules]

Jaydog, you really nailed it with the whole 50-55% value estimate.

 

I sure thought it would go at least a little higher.

 

I wonder if no current price data on a 9.2 made the bidders skittish to go any higher? The $29,422 is about 61% of the last cent copy sale.

 

If the seller is the same person who bought it in 2004 at $8913, then they should be very happy. The comic gained more than 10% every year they owned it. Not bad.

 

Also of note... at $29,422 this pence copy ends up being very close to the current price of a 9.0 cent copy ($32,265).

 

 

Pegging a FMV number on a book this high up and thinly traded isn't an exact science. I'd put the FMV for a hypothetical equivalent US copy at closer to $48-50K for these reasons:

 

- the book we auctioned had off-white pages

- the most recent sale of a US 9.2, the $48,468 in 2013, had OWW pages

- the stronger sale before that, the $62,140 in 2012, had white pages

- the 2011 $60,000 sale had off-white pages too, but that's both the oldest of the three and appears to be a fixed price sale rather than an auction result

 

If you go with a comparable US FMV of $48-50K, the $29,422 auction for the pence copy is closer to 60% than 50%. I do generally agree that ~50% of US value is a good rule of thumb. I think this book went above that somewhat because it stands out: being the highest graded pence X-Men 1 by multiple grade steps, and also standing out as the highest grade among any of the pence copy Silver Age Marvel keys. For comparison, on the US census for X-Men #1 there are fifteen 9.2s and twelve 9.4s.

 

I'd have to strongly disagree with your current FMV for a comparable 9.2 cents copy. You are giving it a value of $48k, which is what one 9.2 cents copy sold for nearly two years ago.

 

That is, therefore, a nonsensical and unsupported value estimate.

 

Simply giving a cents copy the same relative rate of appreciation of approximately 10% per annum that we are affording the comparable pence copy (as well as other lower graded cents copies of X men 1), the value is indeed closer to the $55K estimate that others have already agreed upon before the final result of that pence copy was even known. So let's not move the goal posts now.

 

Indeed, the $55K FMV estimate on a comparable cents copy is on the low side of what some have said. There were estimates as high as $58K.

 

In determining the percentage FMV that the pence copy ultimate sold for, I actually went with the *lowest* FMV for a cents copy that was estimated.

 

Thus, the pence copy realized a sale at about 53.5% of a comparable original American copy.

 

-J.

 

Nonsensical and unsupported?

 

I prefaced my remarks by saying that arriving at a FMV is not an exact science, then provided my *opinion* of FMV and some simple factual reasons like page quality that influenced my estimate. For high grade keys, it doesn't make sense to treat a book with CROW or OW pages as interchangeable with a book with W pages.

 

I'm not sure what the basis is for the 10% annual rate of appreciation that you're referencing. I don't see any such trend in the GPA data for 9.0 and 9.2 X-Men 1's over the past few years. Lower grades are appreciating, but there's a huge gulf between them and the 9.0s and 9.2s. The 9.4s appear to be depreciating, if anything.

 

I'm not saying my estimate of FMV is the one true answer any more than I'm saying your estimate of FMV is wrong. If you calculate it differently, that's totally fine. For my own purposes, if I'm contemplating buying an X-Men #1 CGC 9.2 with OW pages for resale, I'm going to buy it based on the assumption that it could sell for $48-50K. That's what FMV means to me. It's certainly possible for me to be pleasantly surprised with a sale higher than $50K, but I'm not going to bet on it given that the most recent recorded sale, with better OW-W pages, went for $48,468.

 

Yes I take the "PQ" on the label with a grain of salt since it's not only erratically and randomly assigned by CGC, but it is also impossible to quantify a realized sale price based on that alone (as I have demonstrated multiple times in multiple threads, hence my reputation, and yes, books with "better PQ" on the label sell for less than other books all the time, all day and every day. ).

 

I do believe that presuming zero appreciation on what is one of the highest graded copies of an x men 1, (even for a cents copy) over a two year period is unrealistic and even unreasonable. Heck, if the "right" 9.2 came to market now it would more likely than not *exceed* $55K given that there have been none offered publicly in that nearly two year period.

 

Yet I erred on the conservative side of what multiple other posters in this thread estimated FMV at $55k, and I also happen to agree with that figure. The pence copy you just sold also benefited from being "the highest graded pence copy" as well as closing in conjunction with a well received new x-men trailer at comic con. Various external factors helped that book achieve, again, what I feel is a very strong result.

 

However, it is still at about 53.5% FMV of a comparable American copy.

 

-J.

[gadzukes]

Here's a "What if?" question:

 

We all agree that the cent & pence (and apparently the canadian) copies were printed at the same time. I think most people assume that the cent copies were printed 1st, then the presses were stopped so that changes could be made to the plates (change 12c to 9d + remove the month + slightly change the indicia).

 

I've heard a few people suggest that the pence copies were printed first and then the plates were changed to reflect "cent" copies.

 

What if evidence was presented showing 100% definitive proof that the pence copies were printed first? Would that knowledge make the pence copies equal to or more valuable than the cent copies? Or would that knowledge change nothing about how pence copies are valued?

[koollectablz]

Here's a "What if?" question:

 

We all agree that the cent & pence (and apparently the canadian) copies were printed at the same time. I think most people assume that the cent copies were printed 1st, then the presses were stopped so that changes could be made to the plates (change 12c to 9d + remove the month + slightly change the indicia).

 

I've heard a few people suggest that the pence copies were printed first and then the plates were changed to reflect "cent" copies.

 

What if evidence was presented showing 100% definitive proof that the pence copies were printed first? Would that knowledge make the pence copies equal to or more valuable than the cent copies? Or would that knowledge change nothing about how pence copies are valued?

 

No.

[Kevin.J]

Here's a "What if?" question:

 

We all agree that the cent & pence (and apparently the canadian) copies were printed at the same time. I think most people assume that the cent copies were printed 1st, then the presses were stopped so that changes could be made to the plates (change 12c to 9d + remove the month + slightly change the indicia).

 

I've heard a few people suggest that the pence copies were printed first and then the plates were changed to reflect "cent" copies.

 

What if evidence was presented showing 100% definitive proof that the pence copies were printed first? Would that knowledge make the pence copies equal to or more valuable than the cent copies? Or would that knowledge change nothing about how pence copies are valued?

 

It was suggested some time ago by someone who worked in the industry ( I forget who) that the smaller print runs were printed first so any bugs or glitches could be ironed out, whether this is true or not, I guess we will never know.

As to making pence more or less valuable, I think it will remain the same whatever happens, with Pence copies showing a slight increase year on year as more people come to realise what they are, but I doubt there will ever be a time when they are as in demand as a cents copy.

[Silver Surfer]

And speaking of ultra-rare "foreign reprints" - here's another one of my pride and joys...

 

Triumph no.772 from Aug 1939 (British)

 

Superman's 1st appearance outside America

original cover by John McCail

 

 

 

ok, that is cool. i think the original cover art puts that on a different footing, except you can't see the "S" on him

 

This is pretty cool!

[TheLiamSturgess]

Here's a "What if?" question:

 

We all agree that the cent & pence (and apparently the canadian) copies were printed at the same time. I think most people assume that the cent copies were printed 1st, then the presses were stopped so that changes could be made to the plates (change 12c to 9d + remove the month + slightly change the indicia).

 

I've heard a few people suggest that the pence copies were printed first and then the plates were changed to reflect "cent" copies.

 

What if evidence was presented showing 100% definitive proof that the pence copies were printed first? Would that knowledge make the pence copies equal to or more valuable than the cent copies? Or would that knowledge change nothing about how pence copies are valued?

 

It was suggested some time ago by someone who worked in the industry ( I forget who) that the smaller print runs were printed first so any bugs or glitches could be ironed out, whether this is true or not, I guess we will never know.

As to making pence more or less valuable, I think it will remain the same whatever happens, with Pence copies showing a slight increase year on year as more people come to realise what they are, but I doubt there will ever be a time when they are as in demand as a cents copy.

 

Yeah, I don't think this should affect pricing at all.

[thunsicker]

Here's a "What if?" question:

 

We all agree that the cent & pence (and apparently the canadian) copies were printed at the same time. I think most people assume that the cent copies were printed 1st, then the presses were stopped so that changes could be made to the plates (change 12c to 9d + remove the month + slightly change the indicia).

 

I've heard a few people suggest that the pence copies were printed first and then the plates were changed to reflect "cent" copies.

 

What if evidence was presented showing 100% definitive proof that the pence copies were printed first? Would that knowledge make the pence copies equal to or more valuable than the cent copies? Or would that knowledge change nothing about how pence copies are valued?

 

It was suggested some time ago by someone who worked in the industry ( I forget who) that the smaller print runs were printed first so any bugs or glitches could be ironed out, whether this is true or not, I guess we will never know.

As to making pence more or less valuable, I think it will remain the same whatever happens, with Pence copies showing a slight increase year on year as more people come to realise what they are, but I doubt there will ever be a time when they are as in demand as a cents copy.

 

+1 I think the fact that UK print run was run first has been known for a while now. And I think that is partially the cause of the narrowing of the gap between the UK editions and the U.S. Editions. But I don't see that gap ever reaching 0.

[gaz973]

Here's a "What if?" question:

 

We all agree that the cent & pence (and apparently the canadian) copies were printed at the same time. I think most people assume that the cent copies were printed 1st, then the presses were stopped so that changes could be made to the plates (change 12c to 9d + remove the month + slightly change the indicia).

 

I've heard a few people suggest that the pence copies were printed first and then the plates were changed to reflect "cent" copies.

 

What if evidence was presented showing 100% definitive proof that the pence copies were printed first? Would that knowledge make the pence copies equal to or more valuable than the cent copies? Or would that knowledge change nothing about how pence copies are valued?

 

It was suggested some time ago by someone who worked in the industry ( I forget who) that the smaller print runs were printed first so any bugs or glitches could be ironed out, whether this is true or not, I guess we will never know.

As to making pence more or less valuable, I think it will remain the same whatever happens, with Pence copies showing a slight increase year on year as more people come to realise what they are, but I doubt there will ever be a time when they are as in demand as a cents copy.

I agree.

[EwanUK]

Just noticed this advert fom the latest Overstreet...

 

So at least one American dealer is on to it... and this is the guy who sold the $3.2m Action no.1

 

 

[EwanUK]

And just for fun, here's some of my recent pence aquisitions / sales

 

First one is interesting in that it's a CHARLTON PENCE VARIANT!!! What more could any collector desire!

 

 

And some more well known books...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Silver Surfer]

Since we are talking UK editions

[EwanUK]

more...