I need 5 Fantastic Four facts

[Unca Ben]

In the first two issues the FF were located in Central City.

 

I never noticed that. I'll have to look for a Barry Allen appearance in the background art.

 

He's there.

You have to look quickly because he's gone in a flash.

[thunsicker]

Willie Lumpkin is the name of their old mailman.

 

And is taken from a comic strip Stan Lee and Dan DeCarlo tried to get off the ground before Marvel took off in the 60's.

[shadroch]

"The magazine [Justice League of America] sold so well, it practically led to -- I have to be careful what I say here -- the rescue of Marvel Comics. My boss was playing golf with the publisher of Marvel Comics, and boasted about what a big hit they had on their hands. Jack Leibowitz told Martin Goodman how well it was doing. He went to his editor, a young fellow named Stan Lee, and said 'let's put out a magazine like that, too.' He put out the Fantastic Four, which immediately became a big hit and is still going strong today. I have a standard gag, that the Justice League not only saved DC Comics, it saved Marvel comics, too."

Julius Schwartz: Keeper of the Universe

 

...and complete myth.

What's the real story?

 

There isn't one. The "golf story" is made up.

 

 

 

As discussed at great length, with much data, over in the Silver Age forum (some of which was exceptionally ill-informed), the JLA had little to nothing to do with the creation of the FF. There simply wasn't enough time.

 

 

JLA debuted in March of 1960 in Brave and Bold 28. After a three issue run, Justice League #1 came out in October 1960, more than a year before Fantastic Four #1 came out in November 1961. In real time, DC knew they had a hit on their hands by the summer of 1960. More than enough time for that story to play out. I'm not sure I believe it, but its interesting that people from both companies tell pretty much the same story.

 

[ninanina]

1.

 

5. In the 80's, H.E.R.B.I.E. the Robot replaced the Human Torch in the Saturday morning cartoon version of The Fantastic Four because plans were already underway even back then to ruin the franchise with bad ideas and poor decisions.

 

And here I thought it was because they didn't want children watching the cartoon to play the "Torch" superhero by lighting a match to themselves.

[Mr 9.8]

1.

 

5. In the 80's, H.E.R.B.I.E. the Robot replaced the Human Torch in the Saturday morning cartoon version of The Fantastic Four because plans were already underway even back then to ruin the franchise with bad ideas and poor decisions.

 

And here I thought it was because they didn't want children watching the cartoon to play the "Torch" superhero by lighting a match to themselves.

I thought that was the case to?

[howardhallis]

1.

 

5. In the 80's, H.E.R.B.I.E. the Robot replaced the Human Torch in the Saturday morning cartoon version of The Fantastic Four because plans were already underway even back then to ruin the franchise with bad ideas and poor decisions.

 

And here I thought it was because they didn't want children watching the cartoon to play the "Torch" superhero by lighting a match to themselves.

 

Not according to this!

[jaybuck43]

1.

 

5. In the 80's, H.E.R.B.I.E. the Robot replaced the Human Torch in the Saturday morning cartoon version of The Fantastic Four because plans were already underway even back then to ruin the franchise with bad ideas and poor decisions.

 

And here I thought it was because they didn't want children watching the cartoon to play the "Torch" superhero by lighting a match to themselves.

 

Actually the Human Torch was licensed to Universal Studios in 1978 (I think that's the right year, maybe earlier) for use in a stand alone movie that never materialized. Universal was not willing to allow his use in the cartoon show. Dave Cockrum was supposed to design and create H.E.R.B.I.E but he hated the character so much Kirby had to step in and do it.

[Chip Cataldo]

And here I thought it was because they didn't want children watching the cartoon to play the "Torch" superhero by lighting a match to themselves.

...addressed by John Byrne in FF #285.

 

A brilliant story...one of the best single-comic issues ever.

[Rodey]

Keep the facts coming in! got some good ones!

[akaSteveRogers]

The latest Marvel Studios movie star, Ant-Man (Scott Lang) was briefly a member of the FF in issue #384.

 

P.S. RODEY!!!!!!!! (wassup bro!)

 

 

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

"The magazine [Justice League of America] sold so well, it practically led to -- I have to be careful what I say here -- the rescue of Marvel Comics. My boss was playing golf with the publisher of Marvel Comics, and boasted about what a big hit they had on their hands. Jack Leibowitz told Martin Goodman how well it was doing. He went to his editor, a young fellow named Stan Lee, and said 'let's put out a magazine like that, too.' He put out the Fantastic Four, which immediately became a big hit and is still going strong today. I have a standard gag, that the Justice League not only saved DC Comics, it saved Marvel comics, too."

Julius Schwartz: Keeper of the Universe

 

...and complete myth.

What's the real story?

 

There isn't one. The "golf story" is made up.

 

 

 

As discussed at great length, with much data, over in the Silver Age forum (some of which was exceptionally ill-informed), the JLA had little to nothing to do with the creation of the FF. There simply wasn't enough time.

 

 

JLA debuted in March of 1960 in Brave and Bold 28. After a three issue run, Justice League #1 came out in October 1960, more than a year before Fantastic Four #1 came out in November 1961. In real time, DC knew they had a hit on their hands by the summer of 1960. More than enough time for that story to play out. I'm not sure I believe it, but its interesting that people from both companies tell pretty much the same story.

That's not accurate.

 

B&B #28 went on sale in December of 1959, true. However, the book did not go OFF sale until March of 1960 (cover date), and it would have taken another 1-2 months for the returns portion of the distribution to figure out how well the book did. That means, by May or so of 1960, DC had the rough sales information for B&B #28, but only B&B #28.

 

B&B was a tryout book by that point, like Showcase before it, and not every feature in B&B went on to receive its own title (Suicide Squad, Hawkman, Cave Carson, etc.)

 

While it's certainly possible that DC knew that the sales on the tryout issues of Justice League in B&B #28-30 was enough (and the fact that DC gave the feature THREE issues, rather than the standard TWO, shows they were both unsure of the feature's success and willing to risk it anyway) for JLA to get its own title, launching in August of 1960, and going off sale in November of 1960 (cover date, not October, and just one year before FF #1.)

 

At that point, however, the Justice League title (which is what the conversation has always been about, not the "tryout" issues...why no word about the "tryout" Green Lantern, or Challengers of the Unknown, which was Kirby's, or Flash, etc...?) was only 3-4 issues in...at most...when Stan and Jack would have been able to complete FF at the very latest. So, at most, DC would have had sales information for B&B #28-30, and JLA #1-3...maybe #4....before FF #1 began to be created. How does one know they have a "hit title" with sales information for only 3 or 4 issues...? They don't. The whole thing is apocrypha, and the story changes based on Stan's memory that day.

 

We know FF #1 was on sale the first and second week of August, 1961, so it would have to have been produced somewhere during June/mid-July at the very latest. It being a #1, they probably started a little earlier on it, since there was no deadline pressure to get it out yet. So, the instruction to Stan would had to have gotten from DC circulation, to DC management, to Marvel management, to Stan...and the information only covered the first 3 issues, 4 at the absolute latest (#4 being put on sale in February of 1960, off sale in May of 1960, and distribution summaries available in June/July.)

 

And that takes into account information that only DC circulation would have been privy to. What are the odds that someone at DC would have been in contact with someone at Marvel during this time period, would have known about these supposed "sales hit", and then shared it with that someone at Marvel, who in turn would tell Stan and Jack to "do what DC was doing"...?

 

Slim. Very slim. There was no instant access to information 50+ years ago like there is today, no Diamond.com, no "Previews", etc. The process was slow and laborious and time consuming. Computers were still in the future, certainly for comic book publishers, and this accounting needed to be done by hand. It took a lot of time.

 

As has already been demonstrated, Justice League was hardly a barn burner out of the gate, especially when 1961 sales figures in the Statement of Ownership (the first one for the title) put it at 335,000 copies sold, just about 10% higher than Flash, substantially lower than all the Batman and Superman titles except Detective (with which it was right about par), lower than Archie AND Turok, and 13th overall for comics that reported this information. That would have covered roughly the first year of the book's publication. Decent...but certainly not a top tier title, enough to inspire comments about "look how great this title is selling!" when Superman was selling 2.5 times that amount.

 

Add to that the numbers for B&B from 1960...214,000 copies sold....which would have covered #28-30....and then from 1961...245,000 copies sold...and we can extrapolate that B&B #28-30 didn't exactly set sales records, either, and it appears that Hawkman was the driver for the 1961 sales jump (1962 sales were back down to 210,000 copies.)

 

The numbers and dates we DO know...combined with the ever-shifting stories of those "who were there"...show us that these apocryphal stories may be neat, but they didn't really happen. There simply wasn't enough time, and the numbers simply don't add up.

 

PS. No one from Marvel tells that story. Goodman never spoke about much publicly, and Stan's story is simply that Goodman told him to "do what DC was doing." The "golf story" is never mentioned from a Marvel employee.

[RockMyAmadeus]

There you go, Rodney! Lots of FF facts for ya.

 

PS. Stan Lee and Jack Kirby's run on FF...a 102 issue unbroken run...would remain the longest unbroken run by a writer/artist team in comics until Ultimate Spiderman #103 in 2007.

[Chicago Boy]

Ben Grimm is Jewish (yet he doesn't have a Jewish last name)

[shadroch]

"The magazine [Justice League of America] sold so well, it practically led to -- I have to be careful what I say here -- the rescue of Marvel Comics. My boss was playing golf with the publisher of Marvel Comics, and boasted about what a big hit they had on their hands. Jack Leibowitz told Martin Goodman how well it was doing. He went to his editor, a young fellow named Stan Lee, and said 'let's put out a magazine like that, too.' He put out the Fantastic Four, which immediately became a big hit and is still going strong today. I have a standard gag, that the Justice League not only saved DC Comics, it saved Marvel comics, too."

Julius Schwartz: Keeper of the Universe

 

...and complete myth.

What's the real story?

 

There isn't one. The "golf story" is made up.

 

 

 

As discussed at great length, with much data, over in the Silver Age forum (some of which was exceptionally ill-informed), the JLA had little to nothing to do with the creation of the FF. There simply wasn't enough time.

 

 

JLA debuted in March of 1960 in Brave and Bold 28. After a three issue run, Justice League #1 came out in October 1960, more than a year before Fantastic Four #1 came out in November 1961. In real time, DC knew they had a hit on their hands by the summer of 1960. More than enough time for that story to play out. I'm not sure I believe it, but its interesting that people from both companies tell pretty much the same story.

That's not accurate.

 

B&B #28 went on sale in December of 1959, true. However, the book did not go OFF sale until March of 1960 (cover date), and it would have taken another 1-2 months for the returns portion of the distribution to figure out how well the book did. That means, by May or so of 1960, DC had the rough sales information for B&B #28, but only B&B #28.

 

B&B was a tryout book by that point, like Showcase before it, and not every feature in B&B went on to receive its own title (Suicide Squad, Hawkman, Cave Carson, etc.)

 

While it's certainly possible that DC knew that the sales on the tryout issues of Justice League in B&B #28-30 was enough (and the fact that DC gave the feature THREE issues, rather than the standard TWO, shows they were both unsure of the feature's success and willing to risk it anyway) for JLA to get its own title, launching in August of 1960, and going off sale in November of 1960 (cover date, not October, and just one year before FF #1.)

 

At that point, however, the Justice League title (which is what the conversation has always been about, not the "tryout" issues...why no word about the "tryout" Green Lantern, or Challengers of the Unknown, which was Kirby's, or Flash, etc...?) was only 3-4 issues in...at most...when Stan and Jack would have been able to complete FF at the very latest. So, at most, DC would have had sales information for B&B #28-30, and JLA #1-3...maybe #4....before FF #1 began to be created. How does one know they have a "hit title" with sales information for only 3 or 4 issues...? They don't. The whole thing is apocrypha, and the story changes based on Stan's memory that day.

 

We know FF #1 was on sale the first and second week of August, 1961, so it would have to have been produced somewhere during June/mid-July at the very latest. It being a #1, they probably started a little earlier on it, since there was no deadline pressure to get it out yet. So, the instruction to Stan would had to have gotten from DC circulation, to DC management, to Marvel management, to Stan...and the information only covered the first 3 issues, 4 at the absolute latest (#4 being put on sale in February of 1960, off sale in May of 1960, and distribution summaries available in June/July.)

 

And that takes into account information that only DC circulation would have been privy to. What are the odds that someone at DC would have been in contact with someone at Marvel during this time period, would have known about these supposed "sales hit", and then shared it with that someone at Marvel, who in turn would tell Stan and Jack to "do what DC was doing"...?

 

Slim. Very slim. There was no instant access to information 50+ years ago like there is today, no Diamond.com, no "Previews", etc. The process was slow and laborious and time consuming. Computers were still in the future, certainly for comic book publishers, and this accounting needed to be done by hand. It took a lot of time.

 

As has already been demonstrated, Justice League was hardly a barn burner out of the gate, especially when 1961 sales figures in the Statement of Ownership (the first one for the title) put it at 335,000 copies sold, just about 10% higher than Flash, substantially lower than all the Batman and Superman titles except Detective (with which it was right about par), lower than Archie AND Turok, and 13th overall for comics that reported this information. That would have covered roughly the first year of the book's publication. Decent...but certainly not a top tier title, enough to inspire comments about "look how great this title is selling!" when Superman was selling 2.5 times that amount.

 

Add to that the numbers for B&B from 1960...214,000 copies sold....which would have covered #28-30....and then from 1961...245,000 copies sold...and we can extrapolate that B&B #28-30 didn't exactly set sales records, either, and it appears that Hawkman was the driver for the 1961 sales jump (1962 sales were back down to 210,000 copies.)

 

The numbers and dates we DO know...combined with the ever-shifting stories of those "who were there"...show us that these apocryphal stories may be neat, but they didn't really happen. There simply wasn't enough time, and the numbers simply don't add up.

 

PS. No one from Marvel tells that story. Goodman never spoke about much publicly, and Stan's story is simply that Goodman told him to "do what DC was doing." The "golf story" is never mentioned from a Marvel employee.

 

 

Brave and Bold 28 went off sale sixty days after it was released, when BB 29 took its place. The rest of your post is equally inaccurate, but i'm not going to bother with it. Believe what you wish.

[RockMyAmadeus]

"The magazine [Justice League of America] sold so well, it practically led to -- I have to be careful what I say here -- the rescue of Marvel Comics. My boss was playing golf with the publisher of Marvel Comics, and boasted about what a big hit they had on their hands. Jack Leibowitz told Martin Goodman how well it was doing. He went to his editor, a young fellow named Stan Lee, and said 'let's put out a magazine like that, too.' He put out the Fantastic Four, which immediately became a big hit and is still going strong today. I have a standard gag, that the Justice League not only saved DC Comics, it saved Marvel comics, too."

Julius Schwartz: Keeper of the Universe

 

...and complete myth.

What's the real story?

 

There isn't one. The "golf story" is made up.

 

 

 

As discussed at great length, with much data, over in the Silver Age forum (some of which was exceptionally ill-informed), the JLA had little to nothing to do with the creation of the FF. There simply wasn't enough time.

 

 

JLA debuted in March of 1960 in Brave and Bold 28. After a three issue run, Justice League #1 came out in October 1960, more than a year before Fantastic Four #1 came out in November 1961. In real time, DC knew they had a hit on their hands by the summer of 1960. More than enough time for that story to play out. I'm not sure I believe it, but its interesting that people from both companies tell pretty much the same story.

That's not accurate.

 

B&B #28 went on sale in December of 1959, true. However, the book did not go OFF sale until March of 1960 (cover date), and it would have taken another 1-2 months for the returns portion of the distribution to figure out how well the book did. That means, by May or so of 1960, DC had the rough sales information for B&B #28, but only B&B #28.

 

B&B was a tryout book by that point, like Showcase before it, and not every feature in B&B went on to receive its own title (Suicide Squad, Hawkman, Cave Carson, etc.)

 

While it's certainly possible that DC knew that the sales on the tryout issues of Justice League in B&B #28-30 was enough (and the fact that DC gave the feature THREE issues, rather than the standard TWO, shows they were both unsure of the feature's success and willing to risk it anyway) for JLA to get its own title, launching in August of 1960, and going off sale in November of 1960 (cover date, not October, and just one year before FF #1.)

 

At that point, however, the Justice League title (which is what the conversation has always been about, not the "tryout" issues...why no word about the "tryout" Green Lantern, or Challengers of the Unknown, which was Kirby's, or Flash, etc...?) was only 3-4 issues in...at most...when Stan and Jack would have been able to complete FF at the very latest. So, at most, DC would have had sales information for B&B #28-30, and JLA #1-3...maybe #4....before FF #1 began to be created. How does one know they have a "hit title" with sales information for only 3 or 4 issues...? They don't. The whole thing is apocrypha, and the story changes based on Stan's memory that day.

 

We know FF #1 was on sale the first and second week of August, 1961, so it would have to have been produced somewhere during June/mid-July at the very latest. It being a #1, they probably started a little earlier on it, since there was no deadline pressure to get it out yet. So, the instruction to Stan would had to have gotten from DC circulation, to DC management, to Marvel management, to Stan...and the information only covered the first 3 issues, 4 at the absolute latest (#4 being put on sale in February of 1960, off sale in May of 1960, and distribution summaries available in June/July.)

 

And that takes into account information that only DC circulation would have been privy to. What are the odds that someone at DC would have been in contact with someone at Marvel during this time period, would have known about these supposed "sales hit", and then shared it with that someone at Marvel, who in turn would tell Stan and Jack to "do what DC was doing"...?

 

Slim. Very slim. There was no instant access to information 50+ years ago like there is today, no Diamond.com, no "Previews", etc. The process was slow and laborious and time consuming. Computers were still in the future, certainly for comic book publishers, and this accounting needed to be done by hand. It took a lot of time.

 

As has already been demonstrated, Justice League was hardly a barn burner out of the gate, especially when 1961 sales figures in the Statement of Ownership (the first one for the title) put it at 335,000 copies sold, just about 10% higher than Flash, substantially lower than all the Batman and Superman titles except Detective (with which it was right about par), lower than Archie AND Turok, and 13th overall for comics that reported this information. That would have covered roughly the first year of the book's publication. Decent...but certainly not a top tier title, enough to inspire comments about "look how great this title is selling!" when Superman was selling 2.5 times that amount.

 

Add to that the numbers for B&B from 1960...214,000 copies sold....which would have covered #28-30....and then from 1961...245,000 copies sold...and we can extrapolate that B&B #28-30 didn't exactly set sales records, either, and it appears that Hawkman was the driver for the 1961 sales jump (1962 sales were back down to 210,000 copies.)

 

The numbers and dates we DO know...combined with the ever-shifting stories of those "who were there"...show us that these apocryphal stories may be neat, but they didn't really happen. There simply wasn't enough time, and the numbers simply don't add up.

 

PS. No one from Marvel tells that story. Goodman never spoke about much publicly, and Stan's story is simply that Goodman told him to "do what DC was doing." The "golf story" is never mentioned from a Marvel employee.

 

 

Brave and Bold 28 went off sale sixty days after it was released, when BB 29 took its place. The rest of your post is equally inaccurate, but i'm not going to bother with it. Believe what you wish.

 

That is not correct, sorry. That's not how comic books were sold in those days. That's what the "cover date" was originally for: that's the date the book went OFF sale, so that a news vendor would know when to take any unsold copies down and return them for credit. Books didn't necessarily go "off sale" just because a new issue came out. Frequently, a couple of issues in a row could be on a newsstand, a practice which has continued even to this day. Not universally, no, but commonly enough to be standard practice.

 

You suggest that "the rest of my post is equally inaccurate", but are unwilling (or unable) to provide evidence as to how, as I have done. You won't bother with it because doing actual research to find actual information is work. I understand.

 

PS. B&B #28 went on sale in December of 1959. Maybe early December, middle December, or late December...but some time in December.

 

60 days later would be early, mid, or late February....and the cover date was March.

 

So your quibble about when it went off sale is over a week or two...? Really?

 

[Chip Cataldo]

It's like Avi vs Frazier in here.

[rjpb]

1. The best Fantastic Four movie was called "The Incredibles".

2. The new movie Reed Richards looks less like the comic book Reed Richards than the new Johnny Storm does in comparison to his comic book counterpart.

3. The final shot of Mr. Fantastic's fake looking arm waving goodbye at the end of the Roger Corman FF movie is equally as lame as making Galactus a cloud in "FF2: Rise of The Silver Surfer"

4. Hollywood knows how to make The Thing look cool in the movies but fails to do so every time on purpose by leaving out his brow. They do this because they hate you and enjoy ruining things.

5. In the 80's, H.E.R.B.I.E. the Robot replaced the Human Torch in the Saturday morning cartoon version of The Fantastic Four because plans were already underway even back then to ruin the franchise with bad ideas and poor decisions.

 

WOW. So much hate!

 

But true!

[ChrisInBaltimore]

There you go, Rodney! Lots of FF facts for ya.

 

PS. Stan Lee and Jack Kirby's run on FF...a 102 issue unbroken run...would remain the longest unbroken run by a writer/artist team in comics until Ultimate Spiderman #103 in 2007.

 

These numbers aren't accurate. Lee/Kirby was 102 plus 6 annuals. Then Bendis/Bagley ended at 111.

 

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2012/10/25/2012-top-100-comic-book-runs-17-15/

 

I say 111 because Bagley and Immonen split the art on 111.

[Jaylam]

I've heard the golf story too and it is pretty much regarded as myth or at least some mis-information, but the question is, what did prompt Marvel to come up with the Fantastic Four? I think the early issues show they were still unwilling to let go of the monster/alien theme they were more familiar with as evidenced by their continued prominence. Even the Hulk and the Thing were attempts to play it safe by being both a monster and a hero as they were still unsure of the success of super-heroes at that point.

Somebody please put up a link to the discussion in the Silver Age forum. I can't seem to find it.

 

[kav]

Fun fact-Wolverine sliced up Ben Grime's face and he had to wear a iron mask for a while.