I need 5 Fantastic Four facts

[kav]

If you google 'can reed richards muscles push' you'll get a link to a site that claims it is impossible.

[Buzzetta]

Vintage Kav - you know for 'sure' because a writer said this that worked on the book or you know the physics of mutations and genetic anomaly enhanced people?

[kav]

Vintage Kav - you know for 'sure' because a writer said this that worked on the book or you know the physics of mutations and genetic anomaly enhanced people?

Vintage Kav joke falls flat

[Buzzetta]

Vintage Kav - you know for 'sure' because a writer said this that worked on the book or you know the physics of mutations and genetic anomaly enhanced people?

Vintage Kav joke falls flat

 

Who said I was joking

 

This was fun. I am now home and must rest. I think I killed the alternator / batter for the second time by only driving my car about 2000 miles over the last two years and allowing it to mostly sit around.

 

Tomorrow is going to be an annoying and expensive day methinks...

 

Sleep well.

[kav]

ha ha no I meant my initial post was a joke and as usual a stupid one

watch those burritos!

[kav]

Ps I had the same problem I switched to a gel battery supposed to not need that full charge thing also no leaking/corrosion

[shadroch]

I've heard the golf story too and it is pretty much regarded as myth or at least some mis-information, but the question is, what did prompt Marvel to come up with the Fantastic Four?

 

Challengers of the Unknown, which Kirby created at DC four years earlier.

 

"Kirby has also sought to establish, more credibly and on numerous occasions, that the visual elements of the strip were his conceptions. He regularly pointed to a team he had created for rival publisher DC Comics in the 1950s, Challengers of the Unknown. "f you notice the uniforms, they're the same... I always give them a skintight uniform with a belt... the Challengers and the FF have a minimum of decoration. And of course, the Thing's skin is a kind of decoration, breaking up the monotony of the blue uniform." :"

 

Admittedly, that should be taken with a grain of salt, but no bigger grain than most of Stan's statements, which have varied considerably over the years.

 

Was Goodman unaware of what was going on at DC? No. But, it took DC a full 6 years to roll out their superhero revival, little by little, piece by piece. The Silver Age was nothing at all like the Golden Age, where you had everyone and their mother publishing superheroes within 3 years of Superman's debut in Action #1. The Silver Age rolled out much more slowly.

 

After all....Uncle Scrooge was the best selling comic book of 1960 and 1961.

 

the early issues show they were still unwilling to let go of the monster/alien theme they were more familiar with as evidenced by their continued prominence. Even the Hulk and the Thing were attempts to play it safe by being both a monster and a hero as they were still unsure of the success of super-heroes at that point.

 

Absolutely. They were clearly unsure of where to go. Look at the Stone Men of JIM #83. And, of course, Ant-Man and Spider-Man.

 

FF didn't adopt uniforms until the third issue.

[kav]

challengers didn't adopt their all purple uniforms till their 3rd appearance. Before that they had purple shirts but just some pants.

[makeminemego]

I've heard the golf story too and it is pretty much regarded as myth or at least some mis-information, but the question is, what did prompt Marvel to come up with the Fantastic Four?

 

Challengers of the Unknown, which Kirby created at DC four years earlier.

 

"Kirby has also sought to establish, more credibly and on numerous occasions, that the visual elements of the strip were his conceptions. He regularly pointed to a team he had created for rival publisher DC Comics in the 1950s, Challengers of the Unknown. "f you notice the uniforms, they're the same... I always give them a skintight uniform with a belt... the Challengers and the FF have a minimum of decoration. And of course, the Thing's skin is a kind of decoration, breaking up the monotony of the blue uniform." :"

 

Admittedly, that should be taken with a grain of salt, but no bigger grain than most of Stan's statements, which have varied considerably over the years.

 

Was Goodman unaware of what was going on at DC? No. But, it took DC a full 6 years to roll out their superhero revival, little by little, piece by piece. The Silver Age was nothing at all like the Golden Age, where you had everyone and their mother publishing superheroes within 3 years of Superman's debut in Action #1. The Silver Age rolled out much more slowly.

 

After all....Uncle Scrooge was the best selling comic book of 1960 and 1961.

 

the early issues show they were still unwilling to let go of the monster/alien theme they were more familiar with as evidenced by their continued prominence. Even the Hulk and the Thing were attempts to play it safe by being both a monster and a hero as they were still unsure of the success of super-heroes at that point.

 

Absolutely. They were clearly unsure of where to go. Look at the Stone Men of JIM #83. And, of course, Ant-Man and Spider-Man.

 

Thanks for posting this about Challengers. Interesting info about similarities in costume and structure.

 

Stan's great and all, but I don't think putting too much value on his ability to recall facts is a good idea. And I don't mean just now; he was always kind of vague or not informed at all times. I remember watching a video of him and the Romita's from the 1980's where JRSR has to tell him the name of the character they are drawing and inking right in front of him..........The Punisher. Not picking on Stan. Great man who has contributed a great deal, just not always great with facts.

 

It always seemed that JLA/BB 28-30 may have been a catalyst of sorts for the Avengers title 3 years down the road rather than FF #1.

 

Just made more sense to me that Challengers-if anything was-may have been what gave Stan and Jack the push for FF #1, with the scientist/explorers angle, not to mention the Kirby connection........

[Prince Namor]

I've heard the golf story too and it is pretty much regarded as myth or at least some mis-information, but the question is, what did prompt Marvel to come up with the Fantastic Four?

 

Challengers of the Unknown, which Kirby created at DC four years earlier.

 

"Kirby has also sought to establish, more credibly and on numerous occasions, that the visual elements of the strip were his conceptions. He regularly pointed to a team he had created for rival publisher DC Comics in the 1950s, Challengers of the Unknown. "f you notice the uniforms, they're the same... I always give them a skintight uniform with a belt... the Challengers and the FF have a minimum of decoration. And of course, the Thing's skin is a kind of decoration, breaking up the monotony of the blue uniform." :"

 

Admittedly, that should be taken with a grain of salt, but no bigger grain than most of Stan's statements, which have varied considerably over the years.

 

Was Goodman unaware of what was going on at DC? No. But, it took DC a full 6 years to roll out their superhero revival, little by little, piece by piece. The Silver Age was nothing at all like the Golden Age, where you had everyone and their mother publishing superheroes within 3 years of Superman's debut in Action #1. The Silver Age rolled out much more slowly.

 

After all....Uncle Scrooge was the best selling comic book of 1960 and 1961.

 

the early issues show they were still unwilling to let go of the monster/alien theme they were more familiar with as evidenced by their continued prominence. Even the Hulk and the Thing were attempts to play it safe by being both a monster and a hero as they were still unsure of the success of super-heroes at that point.

 

Absolutely. They were clearly unsure of where to go. Look at the Stone Men of JIM #83. And, of course, Ant-Man and Spider-Man.

 

Also...

 

Previous to Jack coming back to Marvel, they weren't doing any 'monster' books...this was something Jack brought with him to Marvel, though it was Stan who spiced it up with some of those great memorable names. But Jack was doing alien races, giant monsters, robots years before the pre-hero Marvel monster books.... all you have to do is look at those Challengers of the Unknown books.... truly one of the most undervalued early series....

 

 

 

Ultivac? How 'Marvel' is that?

 

 

Aliens

 

 

Giant Monsters

 

 

 

 

Wizards

 

 

Any of these could've been covers for the Fantastic Four - 2 years before they were created...

 

 

And of course... super powers...

 

[budsbundy]

The Thing is ageless, he only ages when in Ben Grimm form.

[Gunnz]

Reed Richards is super stretchy everywhere except where it counts. FACT!

[Prince Namor]

"The magazine [Justice League of America] sold so well, it practically led to -- I have to be careful what I say here -- the rescue of Marvel Comics. My boss was playing golf with the publisher of Marvel Comics, and boasted about what a big hit they had on their hands. Jack Leibowitz told Martin Goodman how well it was doing. He went to his editor, a young fellow named Stan Lee, and said 'let's put out a magazine like that, too.' He put out the Fantastic Four, which immediately became a big hit and is still going strong today. I have a standard gag, that the Justice League not only saved DC Comics, it saved Marvel comics, too."

Julius Schwartz: Keeper of the Universe

 

Not directing this at you, but rather Julius' quote....

 

Actually it may have been Kirby who saved Marvel COMICS in general....

 

In his 1987 Comics' Journal Interview, Jack said, "I came in [to the Marvel offices] and they were moving out the furniture, they were taking desks out — and I needed the work! ... Stan Lee is sitting on a chair crying. He didn't know what to do, he's sitting on a chair crying — he was still just out of his adolescence [Note: Lee, born Dec. 28, 1922, would actually have been about 36.] I told him to stop crying. I says, 'Go in to Martin and tell him to stop moving the furniture out, and I'll see that the books make money'."

 

Jack is alluding to Marvel getting ready to close their offices down...

 

Stan didn't really deny it, but rather took issue with a couple of the specific points:

 

"I never remember being there when people were moving out the furniture. If they ever moved the furniture, they did it during the weekend when everybody was home. Jack tended toward hyperbole, just like the time he was quoted as saying that he came in and I was crying and I said, 'Please save the company!' I'm not a crier and I would never have said that. I was very happy that Jack was there and I loved working with him, but I never cried to him. (laughs)"

 

Yet he doesn't DENY that it was happening....in fact, it's interesting that he sidesteps the specific point and accuses JACK of hyperbole.... man, oh man, talk about the pot and the kettle...

 

Here's what we know for sure....

 

Even after the Comics Code is instituted, Marvel is cranking out 35-45 titles a month as late as Spring of 1957.... BUT, Martin Goodman makes a horrible business blunder and sells his distribution, signing a contract with an outside distributor who, unknown to him is under Federal investigation and closes down.... leaving him in a bind. So he signs a deal with National (DC Comics) to have THEM distribute his comics, but they limit him to only 8 a month....

 

From 35-45 a month to only 8?

 

For a portion of his publishing empire that he always saw as secondary, it would hardly seem worth it... and he continues to make cuts.... Respected Comics Historian Michael J. Vassollo says the job log cuts off sometime not long after that and Marvel is publishing reprints and inventory stories only...

 

And then in August of 1958:

 

 

NOTHING. Marvel released NOTHING.

 

Were they going out of business? On Vacation? Was this a co-incidence?

 

Look at what the rest of the publisher's put out that month:

The rest of the Publisher's output on the Newsstands August 1958

 

So what changed the following month?

THREE new Kirby led #1's and what is essentially the birth of the pre-hero Silver Age Marvel's....

 

 

So has it ever really been addressed?

WAS Marvel getting ready to shut it's doors when Jack made his return and saved the day?

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

Also...

 

Previous to Jack coming back to Marvel, they weren't doing any 'monster' books...this was something Jack brought with him to Marvel, though it was Stan who spiced it up with some of those great memorable names. But Jack was doing alien races, giant monsters, robots years before the pre-hero Marvel monster books.... all you have to do is look at those Challengers of the Unknown books.... truly one of the most undervalued early series....

 

 

Yup yup.

 

Challengers, by the way, was also not bad sales wise, holding its own against other DC titles like Flash and Green Lantern throughout the 60's.

 

If you don't see the FF in Challengers, you're just not looking....or don't know the Challengers. It's a fantastic series.

 

I'm not denying that there was *some* influence at Marvel with what DC was doing...but it's certainly not these apocryphal "golf" stories and Goodman "noticing what was selling" (how could he have possibly known this on his own?) and then telling Stan and Jack to "do the same thing."

 

It is much more likely that Jack, having been directly involved in DC's superhero revival in its earlier years (1957-1959), and Stan, wanting to do something, anything different, came up with the "superhero angle" just based on DC's revival in general, just to see if it would work. Obviously, since it took them 6 months to even attempt another superhero...the aforementioned "semi-monster" Hulk....and then another three months for Thor and Spider-Man (TTA #27 obviously doesn't count)...they clearly didn't rush into anything.

 

And, by this time (early 1962), DC's SA revival was essentially complete. Flash, GL, JLA, Hawkman, plus all the new creations.

 

But the JLA being the direct inspiration for FF, and/or "saving" Marvel? No, doesn't add up, despite the vehement protestations of some.

[RockMyAmadeus]

"The magazine [Justice League of America] sold so well, it practically led to -- I have to be careful what I say here -- the rescue of Marvel Comics. My boss was playing golf with the publisher of Marvel Comics, and boasted about what a big hit they had on their hands. Jack Leibowitz told Martin Goodman how well it was doing. He went to his editor, a young fellow named Stan Lee, and said 'let's put out a magazine like that, too.' He put out the Fantastic Four, which immediately became a big hit and is still going strong today. I have a standard gag, that the Justice League not only saved DC Comics, it saved Marvel comics, too."

Julius Schwartz: Keeper of the Universe

 

Not directing this at you, but rather Julius' quote....

 

Actually it may have been Kirby who saved Marvel COMICS in general....

 

In his 1987 Comics' Journal Interview, Jack said, "I came in [to the Marvel offices] and they were moving out the furniture, they were taking desks out and I needed the work! ... Stan Lee is sitting on a chair crying. He didn't know what to do, he's sitting on a chair crying he was still just out of his adolescence [Note: Lee, born Dec. 28, 1922, would actually have been about 36.] I told him to stop crying. I says, 'Go in to Martin and tell him to stop moving the furniture out, and I'll see that the books make money'."

 

Jack is alluding to Marvel getting ready to close their offices down...

 

Stan didn't really deny it, but rather took issue with a couple of the specific points:

 

"I never remember being there when people were moving out the furniture. If they ever moved the furniture, they did it during the weekend when everybody was home. Jack tended toward hyperbole, just like the time he was quoted as saying that he came in and I was crying and I said, 'Please save the company!' I'm not a crier and I would never have said that. I was very happy that Jack was there and I loved working with him, but I never cried to him. (laughs)"

 

Yet he doesn't DENY that it was happening....in fact, it's interesting that he sidesteps the specific point and accuses JACK of hyperbole.... man, oh man, talk about the pot and the kettle...

 

Here's what we know for sure....

 

Even after the Comics Code is instituted, Marvel is cranking out 35-45 titles a month as late as Spring of 1957.... BUT, Martin Goodman makes a horrible business blunder and sells his distribution, signing a contract with an outside distributor who, unknown to him is under Federal investigation and closes down.... leaving him in a bind. So he signs a deal with National (DC Comics) to have THEM distribute his comics, but they limit him to only 8 a month....

 

From 35-45 a month to only 8?

 

For a portion of his publishing empire that he always saw as secondary, it would hardly seem worth it... and he continues to make cuts.... Respected Comics Historian Michael J. Vassollo says the job log cuts off sometime not long after that and Marvel is publishing reprints and inventory stories only...

 

And then in August of 1958:

 

 

NOTHING. Marvel released NOTHING.

 

Were they going out of business? On Vacation? Was this a co-incidence?

 

Look at what the rest of the publisher's put out that month:

The rest of the Publisher's output on the Newsstands August 1958

 

So what changed the following month?

THREE new Kirby led #1's and what is essentially the birth of the pre-hero Silver Age Marvel's....

 

 

So has it ever really been addressed?

WAS Marvel getting ready to shut it's doors when Jack made his return and saved the day?

 

A lot of people don't know that Atlas completely imploded in 1958, and nearly shut down for good. Kirby coming back to Atlas is no doubt a significant factor to the company's very survival.

 

Oddly enough, had Kirby never come back, he may have gone down in history as one of the best DC artists of all time. The vast majority of his 40's work was, of course, for DC, as well as a good chunk of his 50's work. But, because comics fandom didn't exist, by the time Marvel got rolling in the 60's, no one really remembered that he had ever worked for anyone but Marvel, and he became so associated with them that when he jumped ship BACK to DC in 1970, it was seen as quite the revolutionary move...despite Kirby having left only 12 years earlier, and the split with Timely/Atlas (1941-1958) was 5 years longer!

 

[Rodey]

I'm glad my thread started a historical perspective on the rise and fall of DC/Marvel comics.

[Jaylam]

I was born in 1960 and started collecting comics in 1966. I never knew Kirby had done anything for DC as I had always associated him with Marvel, so when he jumped to DC in 1970 that was amazing to me. I wasn't until years later did I become aware of his prior work for DC. As a kid in the late 60's and early 70's access to this information was just not readily available to me. At least as much as I was aware in rural Indiana at the time; no comic shops, no conventions, no fanzines, no internet and I barely knew anyone else who collected comics and most of those people were people I introduced to comics myself.

I think it was in 1971 when I saw Gene Shalit do a piece on Spider-Man #96 on the Today Show. I was amazed that the main-stream media even took notice of something like that out side of doing cartoons. I was so excited I went and grabbed my older brother to show him they were showcasing an actual (current release) comic-book on the Today Show. Anyone else remember this?

[shadroch]

Kirby did plenty of work for Atlas in 1956/57 before going to work free lance for DC for about thirty months, then he returned to Atlas/Marvel.

 

Seems to me that most of his post-war books were done for publishers other than Marvel or DC. Crestwood, Harvey and Mainline were the biggest publishers of his work before he rejoined Atlas in either late 1955 or early 1956.

He pretty much alienated everyone at DC so his return to Atlas wasn't exactly by choice. No one else would give him work.

[Prince Namor]

Kirby did plenty of work for Atlas in 1956/57 before going to work free lance for DC for about thirty months, then he returned to Atlas/Marvel.

 

Kirby did 32 ages of work for Marvel on books with covers dated 1956 (all in the last 2 months of 1956), and 67 pages of books cover dated 1957 according to the Grand Comics Database (about the equivalent of 5 comics). He did by far the majority of his work for DC and Harvey followed by Prize in 1956/57.

 

Seems to me that most of his post-war books were done for publishers other than Marvel or DC. Crestwood, Harvey and Mainline were the biggest publishers of his work before he rejoined Atlas in either late 1955 or early 1956.

 

Jack didn't 'rejoin' Atlas until 1958 though he did a tiny bit of work (outlined above). During the time you mention he did a 'good chunk' of work for DC.

 

He pretty much alienated everyone at DC so his return to Atlas wasn't exactly by choice.

 

Can you quote a source on this? Everything I've read is that Jack Schiff tried to squeeze money out of him over the SkyMasters newspaper strip, couldn't get Kirby to budge, so he got editors to nitpick his work until Jack get annoyed and left. Sounds more to me like they alienated HIM.

 

No one else would give him work.

 

Very few people could get work during that time. The Comics Code had almost destroyed the business and put THOUSANDS of artists out of work. Kirby was one who could always get work somewhere. Even if things had been really, really bad and not worked out with DC or Marvel he could've continued to freelance for Harvey or Charlton. Even though the books he did for them never did all that well, the guys at Harvey Comics loved Kirby, and he was welcome there any time.

DC, Archie and Dell dominated sales, and guys like Kirby and Gene Colan, Don Heck, John Buscema, weren't going to work for Archie and Dell.

It was a tough market.

But Kirby was never unemployed.

[shadroch]

Wikipedia credits Kirby with producing twenty stories for Atlas in 56/57. RMA stated he didn't work for Atlas from 1941 until 1958. That statement is incorrect.