Amazing Spider-Man 667 1:100 Dell'Otto Variant

[Lazyboy]

Jay's theory is sound and until proven incorrect, I am inclined to lean towards his explanation. In this instance the burden of proof works in his favor, not against.

 

Jay's theory is the same method once used to prove the earth must be flat. Duh.

 

"This is all the data we know.... it must be true!"

 

How'd that work out?

 

False Equivalence!!!

 

 

Side note - I understand what you are trying to say, but I disagree with your assessment and comparison. He has provided enough information for me (and others) to warrant additional research and the opposition has not provided enough information for me (and others) to discard his point of view. It doesn't mean he is right, but at this point he isn't wrong either.

 

Schrödinger's cat man. Schrödinger's cat.

 

Also

 

That would be incorrect. It's the perfect analogy.

 

"This is what I can see.... this is what I know.... THUS, it must be true."

 

 

That isn't exactly what I said, definitely not in an absolute sense.

 

:shrug:

 

If we really wanted to rule out causation the most certain method would be to perform statistical analysis to eliminate coincidence.

 

Anyone have the data to perform the exercise?

 

If not, we are all really just speculating on both sides of his (or the "hobby's") hypothesis. Sure people are creating well thought-out arguments based on other examples and personal experience, but that isn't any more concrete in truth to Jaydog's assertion.

 

Otherwise we are arguing that this book experiences the same thing prior examples in the hobby have proven out. "But we all know the past performance doesn't predict future results."

 

:shrug:

 

We really are all talking in circles at this point.

 

The main problem is that Jaydog dismisses outright all other realistic theories on why the book is (or appears to be) so rare. The other problem is that his opinion has clearly been influenced by the many pieces of misinformation he has posted, both specifically about this book and about the comics industry and market in general.

 

People on the other side aren't saying the book isn't "rare" (depending on how you define the term, but I think at least most people in the thread understand how it's being used) or that it's not possible (even though it isn't likely) that Marvel only printed a very small number of copies.

[BarryAllen]

Pretty sure we can ascertain a book's rarity by more than just the print run bud. It's done all the time round these parts.

 

-J.

 

[BarryAllen]

Jay's theory is sound and until proven incorrect, I am inclined to lean towards his explanation. In this instance the burden of proof works in his favor, not against.

 

Jay's theory is the same method once used to prove the earth must be flat. Duh.

 

"This is all the data we know.... it must be true!"

 

How'd that work out?

 

False Equivalence!!!

 

 

Side note - I understand what you are trying to say, but I disagree with your assessment and comparison. He has provided enough information for me (and others) to warrant additional research and the opposition has not provided enough information for me (and others) to discard his point of view. It doesn't mean he is right, but at this point he isn't wrong either.

 

Schrödinger's cat man. Schrödinger's cat.

 

Also

 

That would be incorrect. It's the perfect analogy.

 

"This is what I can see.... this is what I know.... THUS, it must be true."

 

 

That isn't exactly what I said, definitely not in an absolute sense.

 

:shrug:

 

If we really wanted to rule out causation the most certain method would be to perform statistical analysis to eliminate coincidence.

 

Anyone have the data to perform the exercise?

 

If not, we are all really just speculating on both sides of his (or the "hobby's") hypothesis. Sure people are creating well thought-out arguments based on other examples and personal experience, but that isn't any more concrete in truth to Jaydog's assertion.

 

Otherwise we are arguing that this book experiences the same thing prior examples in the hobby have proven out. "But we all know the past performance doesn't predict future results."

 

:shrug:

 

We really are all talking in circles at this point.

 

The main problem is that Jaydog dismisses outright all other realistic theories on why the book is (or appears to be) so rare. The other problem is that his opinion has clearly been influenced by the many pieces of misinformation he has posted, both specifically about this book and about the comics industry and market in general.

 

People on the other side aren't saying the book isn't "rare" (depending on how you define the term, but I think at least most people in the thread understand how it's being used) or that it's not possible (even though it isn't likely) that Marvel only printed a very small number of copies.

 

I understand where you are coming from and I think the discussion escalated to a place where only arguments online (particularly on here) can go: into absurdity. About 40 pages ago egos took over and it was a lost cause at that point.

 

I also recognize that in many instances that people may not being arguing against the relative rarity of the comic, but against some of the data sources and argument methods used. However, outside of a pure altruistic need to improve Jaydog's life, I think people (not everyone) are arguing just to argue on those points. Which is also very popular round these parts.

 

I am still maintaining: Schrödinger's cat.

 

So yeah

[BarryAllen]

This is better than Gabe's journal

 

Blasphemy!

 

NOTHING is better than Gabe's journal, NOTHING!

[RockMyAmadeus]

My is that no one will convince anyone of anything at this point. People's heels are firmly entrenched

 

False analogy. Presumes that those arguing are trying to convince the other side, rather than correcting misinformation. Presumes that all sides have an equal stake in the conclusion of the debate, and that all sides are partisan to their argument, without regard for reason or truth.

 

and while there have been repeated appeals for either side to "come to reason"

 

False equivalence. Presents all sides as having made sound, reasoned, dispassionate arguments, and therefore "come to reason" appeals from all parties are legitimate. Presents both sides as having been equally concerned at arriving at factual, supportable conclusions.

 

the individuals arguing hardest typically do not publicly demonstrate that behavior.

 

Vague personal opinion, with no explanation or supporting evidence included. Attempt to discredit by presenting the individuals "arguing hardest" as "typically" not "coming to reason", without demonstrating how that is the case. In other words, determining that individuals are "unreasonable", as characterized by yourself, without defining how those individuals are, in fact, not "coming to reason." Argumentum ad hominem.

 

 

 

[BarryAllen]

[Prince Namor]

Pretty sure we can ascertain a book's rarity by more than just the print run bud. It's done all the time round these parts.

 

-J.

 

Maybe someplace weird like 'moderns', but certainly not in any respectable sub forum by anyone with any credibility.

 

 

[Prince Namor]

I guess where I am at (to whomever cares) is that there has been limited data on this exact book presented indicating that it could be rare, but no data on this specific book presented indicating that it is definitely not rare.

 

:shrug:

 

Uh.... That's EXACTLY what the vsJay side is saying....

[Prince Namor]

Chuck, "my" theory is "the" theory, and it is held by some who also are retailers and know full well first hand everything you describe.

 

Your logic is sound in general terms. However what "normally" happens or what is "typically" expected, clearly- clearly- did not happen with this book.

 

Rfoiii accurately states that no theory can be proven either way, and he is correct.

 

I'm still going with mine (the consensus theory of the hobby at large) because all of the available data points, few as they are, support it. In truth, the scarcity of the data points is in and of itself prima facie evidence to support, if not the theory, at least the fact as it has been for the last four and a half years, that the book is just plain crazy rare. We can disagree on the whys and the wherefores, but I'm not sure how anyone can argue with the result (even if they do feel like arguing the cause).

 

-J.

 

I appreciate this post as it sounds as though you do recognize some of what I'm saying.

 

I still believe your argument is heavily dependent on 'may have happened' because of lack of information.

 

Once again, not that it's wrong, just unfounded in its reasoning. The book may very well be rare, I'm just convinced we don't know the reasons why, if it is.

 

And be careful what retailers you get information from.

[BarryAllen]

I guess where I am at (to whomever cares) is that there has been limited data on this exact book presented indicating that it could be rare, but no data on this specific book presented indicating that it is definitely not rare.

 

:shrug:

 

Uh.... That's EXACTLY what the vsJay side is saying....

 

, kinda hard to get that out of many of the "vsJay" sides' posts.

 

I also don't think of my statements as "vsJay" either.

 

To your point though, the overall positions are very similar. Makes me wonder what everyone is arguing about.

[Jaydogrules]

Pretty sure we can ascertain a book's rarity by more than just the print run bud. It's done all the time round these parts.

 

-J.

 

Maybe someplace weird like 'moderns', but certainly not in any respectable sub forum by anyone with any credibility.

 

 

Uh...have you NOT seen that ASM 361 print run thread in the Copper Section? Not coincidentally also being posted in by RMA (though he argues from the exact opposite position to support his theories in that thread).

 

-J.

[Buzzetta]

This really seems like someone trying to hawk something as rare that really isn't as rare as the item actually is.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Pretty sure we can ascertain a book's rarity by more than just the print run bud. It's done all the time round these parts.

 

-J.

 

Maybe someplace weird like 'moderns', but certainly not in any respectable sub forum by anyone with any credibility.

 

 

Uh...have you NOT seen that ASM 361 print run thread in the Copper Section? Not coincidentally also being posted in by RMA (though he argues from the exact opposite position to support his theories in that thread).

 

-J.

 

There isn't any coincidence involved, and none that you would be able to explain, without resorting to invention. It is not accurate to say that I am "argu(ing) from the exact opposite position"...the two situations are not even remotely analogous.

 

As has been pointed out, multiple times, by multiple people, you cannot make claims and expect to be taken seriously if you will not support those claims with evidence.

 

Those who are reasonable make the attempt to explain their positions. That is one of the hallmarks that separates the reasonable from the unreasonable, and why claims of "unreasonableness from all sides" fall flat.

[Jaydogrules]

This really seems like someone trying to hawk something as rare that really isn't as rare as the item actually is.

 

...or back in the real world it is an appreciation thread about a well documented rare book.

 

If you disagree, do please advise us when you track one down. That was, after all, one of the points of the thread anyway.

 

-J.

 

 

[Jaydogrules]

Chuck, "my" theory is "the" theory, and it is held by some who also are retailers and know full well first hand everything you describe.

 

Your logic is sound in general terms. However what "normally" happens or what is "typically" expected, clearly- clearly- did not happen with this book.

 

Rfoiii accurately states that no theory can be proven either way, and he is correct.

 

I'm still going with mine (the consensus theory of the hobby at large) because all of the available data points, few as they are, support it. In truth, the scarcity of the data points is in and of itself prima facie evidence to support, if not the theory, at least the fact as it has been for the last four and a half years, that the book is just plain crazy rare. We can disagree on the whys and the wherefores, but I'm not sure how anyone can argue with the result (even if they do feel like arguing the cause).

 

-J.

 

I appreciate this post as it sounds as though you do recognize some of what I'm saying.

 

I still believe your argument is heavily dependent on 'may have happened' because of lack of information.

 

Once again, not that it's wrong, just unfounded in its reasoning. The book may very well be rare, I'm just convinced we don't know the reasons why, if it is.

 

And be careful what retailers you get information from.

 

I generally agree with this.

 

And glad we can still be friends at the end of it.

 

-J.

 

[N/A]

Aren't we all friends? Or at least some level of an acquaintance.

[paul747]

What a read.

[Jaydogrules]

Aren't we all friends? Or at least some level of an acquaintance.

 

I'd like to think so!

 

-J.

[bababooey]

Aren't we all friends? Or at least some level of an acquaintance.

[BarryAllen]