Amazing Spider-Man 667 1:100 Dell'Otto Variant

[jreezy]

If small indie publishers like Image and Zenescope can produce variants with 500 or even 25 copies, why is it so far fetched to think marvel can't do the same?

 

Serious question guys. Some you clearly have been in comics longer than some of us here. So it's interesting to read about everyone's arguments and opinions. I grew up in the 90s btw.

[Jaydogrules]

If small indie publishers like Image and Zenescope can produce variants with 500 or even 25 copies, why is it so far fetched to think marvel can't do the same?

 

Serious question guys. Some you clearly have been in comics longer than some of us here. So it's interesting to read about everyone's arguments and opinions. I grew up in the 90s btw.

 

It isn't. And they do. Some of the 666 variants being a prime example.

 

-J.

[jreezy]

RMA- Are you referring to all marvel variants or just ratio variants? What about Convention variants? Even convention variants have a print run of 1k-2k?

I'm wondering about convention variants in general. In addition to the uncanny Xmen 510 sketch and the black panther #1 sketch by Campbell.

 

Also, what about those "redemption variants" like the wolverine #1 deadpool mashup or the Seige #3 cover. Those also have a 1k-2k print run?

 

The Michael turner sketch of UXM #500? Wolverine Nabisco Variant?

 

If so, why are all the census numbers so low on these books if there are a minimum of 1500 copies for all marvel variants?

 

 

The best answer to all of that is this: maybe.

 

 

There are, of course, exceptions to everything...but...it is true that when you get print runs for books under 1,000, they're generally more trouble than they're worth. For example: Harris/Anarchy has printed their Royal Blues in numbers of 100, but they've also charged a substantial amount for them: $59.95 when new, for each one, for most of them.

 

Marvel hasn't wanted to go that route, because they're so expensive to produce in such small numbers as a per unit cost, so they've stuck to the 1,000+ print runs for just about everything, if not everything.

 

The Wolverine Nabisco is an interesting case. Remember, you had to send in proofs of purchase for this book, and that was in 1999...one of the very lowest years for the comics industry. Did Marvel print up quite a few? Yes, absolutely...they had to have a "potential" amount covered. They probably printed 5,000 or more, and they wouldn't have wanted to go through the additional cost of a second printing if they didn't have to.

 

The tricky part, then, came in the distribution. These were mailed, one by one by one, to the people who sent in redemption. They achieved, then, very, very wide distribution, and there was a complete inability to "hoard" these on any distribution or retail level. Plus...they were "free", which tends to make people not care for them *as much* as they would something they paid for.

 

So, on top of not having a high redemption rate, and copies going out that could very easily have been trashed by their owners...this book didn't have a very high survival rate. That's not to say, at all, that there aren't a few cases stuck in some warehouse somewhere. There could be. Not likely, but possible. But, certainly there were much more than 1,000 copies printed.

 

And, after the redemption period was over, it's certainly possible that Marvel did, in fact, trash the remaining copies (keeping in mind that 1999 was a completely different world in comics than it is today.)

 

The modern redemption books...Siege #3, Wolverine #1...I have little doubt that they were printed to higher numbers than were redeemed, and are sitting at Marvel warehousing waiting for an opportunity to be distributed.

 

Remember...Spiderman #1 platinum. New Dimension Comics bought over 300 copies from Marvel, as late as 2005-2006.

 

As for the others...convention books are usually printed to the tune of 2,000-5,000 copies, just to have enough for con goers. There have been some exceptions, but I have yet to see a DOCUMENTED case of a Marvel book with less than 1,000 copies printed, even including the DF variants of yesteryear.

 

I would be thrilled to find a book that was DOCUMENTED to have a print run of a few hundred...but, knowing what I know about Marvel variants, I doubt that will ever be the case. It just doesn't make sense for them to go about things that way.

 

Why is the census so low on these books...? Because, as odd as it might sound to those on the CGC board, not everyone wants to slab their books.

 

The census is only the very broadest of indicators of what is out there. It doesn't even give us an exact number. It only tells us the most that MIGHT exist that have been slabbed. If there are 37 copies on the census...it doesn't mean there are, in fact, 37 different copies in slabs.

 

But it tells us absolutely nothing, obviously, about what exists independent of the slabs...that number is a complete unknown, and always will be.

 

Remember: we're talking about things like "potential" and "possible"...the truth is, we DON'T know, and so we have to extrapolate...but that extrapolation has to rely on a basic understanding of the entire process. Looking at the census and what's available on eBay is only a tiny, tiny part of the whole picture, and many erroneous conclusions result from doing that.

 

Thanks for the detailed response. Lots of info to digest here.

[RockMyAmadeus]

If small indie publishers like Image and Zenescope can produce variants with 500 or even 25 copies, why is it so far fetched to think marvel can't do the same?

 

Serious question guys. Some you clearly have been in comics longer than some of us here. So it's interesting to read about everyone's arguments and opinions. I grew up in the 90s btw.

 

It's not far-fetched at all. They absolutely DO have the means to produce ultra-rare, ultra-exclusive variants.

 

But...

 

That's not how Marvel has approached them. They've never been a "boutique" variant producer, like Zene and Image and others.

 

They've been in it since the beginning, and have always had (and continue to have) an everyman type of approach. After all...they *could* just hold on to their unsold variants and dole them out via a website at high prices, like Top Cow, Harris, and others have done...but they've instead chosen to offer them to Diamond accounts at substantial discounts after the initial allocations.

 

Marvel, more than any other variant producing company, has tried to not have "too exclusive" be a part of their program. Even DC has had their "RRP" and other type variants, that Marvel has typically stayed away from doing.

 

It's appreciated.

[WoWitHurts]

The thing to remember with Marvel printing a cover variant and a small press publisher is that with the Marvel Variants the underlying book is printed in the thousands. They just do a cover swap during its press run so the only real charge is what the printer charges for the labor at press time and the extra cost of the Film and plates. But now its File-->plates directly and a lot of the cost doesn't exist.

 

Marvel used to print at Quebecor in Montreal but last I checked they were printing in the US. However the Canadian dollar is now weak against the US dollar so it may be cheaper now to print in Canada again.

[Smoak//Frost-migration]

Its a great looking book, you clearly had the money to spend on it so more power to you.

 

Personally I'm more about key books, where things of note happen, as I think (and just my personal opinion), the limited RI/Low Print Run moderns reaching huge #s is not sustainable long term.

 

This is a board of very educated comic fans yet you still ahve to explain why the book is worth what you paid to them. I imagine your average joe and trying to explain to him the politic of 1:100 incentives, low print runs, etc.

 

On the other hand I tell any shmuck "this is the first appearance of Wolverine" and they automatically get it.

 

Anyways great book, and if you're happy who cares what the board thinks. No need for you to try and justify your purchase, you seem like a good guy and its just coming off insecure.

[Jaydogrules]

Thanks! But to be honest I could give two what somebody thinks of me or the books I've collected.

 

Again, I started this thread as an APPRECIATION thread and to share information about this book. Just like any other appreciation thread.

 

-J.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Thanks! But to be honest I could give two what somebody thinks of me or the books I've collected.

 

Again, I started this thread as an APPRECIATION thread and to share information about this book. Just like any other appreciation thread.

 

-J.

 

Not to pick too many nits, but nowhere in the thread title or first post does it say that this is an "APPRECIATION" thread. The thread is titled "Amazing Spider-Man 667 1:100 Dell'Otto Variant", so all discussion about that book has been "on topic", even if there were those who purposely did NOT appreciate the book (not that it matters either way.)

 

Even so, sharing information means sharing accurate information, not relying on rumor, hearsay, and ill-informed supposition to come to erroneous conclusions about the book in question. That's real appreciation, all right. Not everyone appreciates something in the same way, and that's a fine thing.

 

(Is this where the smiley goes...?)

[RockMyAmadeus]

The thing to remember with Marvel printing a cover variant and a small press publisher is that with the Marvel Variants the underlying book is printed in the thousands. They just do a cover swap during its press run so the only real charge is what the printer charges for the labor at press time and the extra cost of the Film and plates. But now its File-->plates directly and a lot of the cost doesn't exist.

 

Marvel used to print at Quebecor in Montreal but last I checked they were printing in the US. However the Canadian dollar is now weak against the US dollar so it may be cheaper now to print in Canada again.

 

"Switching plates" is not the only cost that variants incur. There are also labor and accounting costs to consider along the distribution chain, as well as creative costs. Dell'Otto was certainly paid for his effort, as were other people involved in this particular cover.

[Jaydogrules]

Thanks! But to be honest I could give two what somebody thinks of me or the books I've collected.

 

Again, I started this thread as an APPRECIATION thread and to share information about this book. Just like any other appreciation thread.

 

-J.

 

Not to pick too many nits, but nowhere in the thread title or first post does it say that this is an "APPRECIATION" thread. The thread is titled "Amazing Spider-Man 667 1:100 Dell'Otto Variant", so all discussion about that book has been "on topic" (not that it matters either way.)

 

Even so, sharing information means sharing accurate information, not relying on rumor, hearsay, and ill-informed supposition to come to erroneous conclusions about the book in question. That's real appreciation, all right. Not everyone appreciates something in the same way, and that's a fine thing.

 

(Is this where the smiley goes...?)

 

Again, maybe you should re-read the first post.

 

And every single thing I have said about this book has been accurate, except where as noted.

 

I'm pretty sure I know a little bit (well actually, a lot) more about it than you do.

 

-J.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Thanks! But to be honest I could give two what somebody thinks of me or the books I've collected.

 

Again, I started this thread as an APPRECIATION thread and to share information about this book. Just like any other appreciation thread.

 

-J.

 

Not to pick too many nits, but nowhere in the thread title or first post does it say that this is an "APPRECIATION" thread. The thread is titled "Amazing Spider-Man 667 1:100 Dell'Otto Variant", so all discussion about that book has been "on topic" (not that it matters either way.)

 

Even so, sharing information means sharing accurate information, not relying on rumor, hearsay, and ill-informed supposition to come to erroneous conclusions about the book in question. That's real appreciation, all right. Not everyone appreciates something in the same way, and that's a fine thing.

 

(Is this where the smiley goes...?)

 

Again, maybe you should re-read the first post.

 

No need, I got the gist of it already. But thanks!

 

And every single thing I have said about this book has been accurate, except where as noted.

 

Except where as noted, indeed. That's a bit like saying "I got every answer right on the test, except the ones I got wrong!"

 

I'm pretty sure I know a little bit (well actually, a lot) more about it than you do.

 

I'm pretty sure that's an inaccurate statement as well, but it really reveals where you're coming from, doesn't it? As if it's some sort of contest to prove who's smarter than whom, who knows more about what. It's not a contest, Jay. That's the problem you're having.

 

Do I again need to go into the litany of inaccuracies you've posted about this book, and Marvel's variant program in general? Hasn't that been enough to show whatever needs to be shown? Who cares? Isn't the point that EVERYONE comes away from the conversation having learned something new, having been enriched by the discussion...? Or, is it really just a matter of lording "knowledge" over others...?

 

 

Do you say these things here, because you think others don't see it, like they might in Comic General? Go ahead, post that there, see if there's any comment about it.

 

(I'm pretty sure this is where the smiley goes....)

[Jaydogrules]

Thanks! But to be honest I could give two what somebody thinks of me or the books I've collected.

 

Again, I started this thread as an APPRECIATION thread and to share information about this book. Just like any other appreciation thread.

 

-J.

 

Not to pick too many nits, but nowhere in the thread title or first post does it say that this is an "APPRECIATION" thread. The thread is titled "Amazing Spider-Man 667 1:100 Dell'Otto Variant", so all discussion about that book has been "on topic" (not that it matters either way.)

 

Even so, sharing information means sharing accurate information, not relying on rumor, hearsay, and ill-informed supposition to come to erroneous conclusions about the book in question. That's real appreciation, all right. Not everyone appreciates something in the same way, and that's a fine thing.

 

(Is this where the smiley goes...?)

 

Again, maybe you should re-read the first post.

 

No need, I got the gist of it already. But thanks!

 

And every single thing I have said about this book has been accurate, except where as noted.

 

Except where as noted, indeed. That's a bit like saying "I got every answer right on the test, except the ones I got wrong!"

 

I'm pretty sure I know a little bit (well actually, a lot) more about it than you do.

 

I'm pretty sure that's an inaccurate statement as well, but it really reveals where you're coming from, doesn't it? As if it's some sort of contest to prove who's smarter than whom, who knows more about what. It's not a contest, Jay. That's the problem you're having.

 

Do I again need to go into the litany of inaccuracies you've posted about this book, and Marvel's variant program in general? Hasn't that been enough to show whatever needs to be shown? Who cares? Isn't the point that EVERYONE comes away from the conversation having learned something new, having been enriched by the discussion...? Or, is it really just a matter of lording "knowledge" over others...?

 

 

Do you say these things here, because you think others don't see it, like they might in Comic General? Go ahead, post that there, see if there's any comment about it.

 

(I'm pretty sure this is where the smiley goes....)

 

Yes. What needs to be shown has been shown.

 

And here's what has actually been shown:

 

A) After more than 4 years there are still only 19 slabbed copies of the book.

 

B) Only one or two copies hit the market for sale a year.

 

C) The book has sold for more than $2k raw.

 

Everything after that is indeed just speculation.

 

Facts....

 

-J.

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

Yes. What needs to be shown has been shown.

 

And here's what has actually been shown:

 

A) After more than 4 years there are still only 19 slabbed copies of the book.

 

"Still only" has little to no meaning. The correct statement is "there are 19 grading events for this book on the census." That doesn't mean there are 19 slabbed copies out there, but it doesn't NOT mean that, either. Further conclusions aren't possible.

 

B) Only one or two copies hit the market for sale a year.

 

You mean, eBay. "The market" is composed of a lot more than just eBay.

 

C) The book has sold for more than $2k raw.

 

Everything after that is indeed just speculation.

 

Indeed.

[N/A]

It's fairly obvious that most people here have no manufacturing or costing experience.

 

A small indie publisher would likely print a small run using a small printer and their primary concern is the overall cost. This is not to be confused with unit cost.

 

Large distributors use much larger printing operations and base their costs primarily around unit cost. Not to be confused with overall cost.

 

If you have $50 and want to print a comic then you run to Kinkos or some such photocopy place.

 

If you have a large distribution then you print to minimum orders.

 

It's costing 101.

[Smoak//Frost-migration]

Jay I'm all for you spending your hard earned money on anything you want and I personally think this is a SICK book, however you're really rubbing me the wrong way with your need to be so combative and defensive about any critique on your purchase. Just be happy with what you've bought mate, I know I would be. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Jaydogrules]

Just keeping it real man.

 

You may be reading too much inflection into my posts.

 

RMA tussle like this on occasion whenever his wrongness on a topic overwhelms my ability to remain silent.

 

Well, in fairness, he asked for it this time, this is, after all, an APPRECIATION thread.

 

Back on topic.... (please?)

 

Doesn't look like the hammer price on that raw copy has ferreted any additional copies out of hiding.

 

-J.

[N/A]

Instant gratification fail.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Just keeping it real man.

 

You may be reading too much inflection into my posts.

 

RMA tussle like this on occasion whenever his wrongness on a topic overwhelms my ability to remain silent.

 

Jay....

 

You didn't have any idea that there was such a thing as the Marvel/Diamond variant leftover program.

 

You didn't know, or refused to acknowledge, that the "1:X" numbers were distribution numbers, not print numbers, and you kept repeating the erroneous idea that "if X number were printed, then 1:X number of the variant were printed."

 

You didn't even know what the Direct market order numbers for this book were, when that sort of information is at our fingertips. You insisted that there was some sort of "ordering fatigue" going on with this book when, in fact, it was the third highest ordered book of the 15 books from #660 to #674, most of which also had variants attached to them. And those numbers don't even matter, because "1:X" is a distribution number, not a print number.

 

You have absolutely insisted that there are no more than ~200 copies, either printed or extant, without having any reasonable understanding of how variants are produced, in what quantities, and why, when no one but Marvel and/or Diamond can really know that information.

 

You have absolutely insisted that this book was "known to be rare from Day 1", while providing no documentation to support that claim.

 

You have absolutely insisted that the census and eBay gives a fairly complete picture of the scarcity of any item, when, in fact, they are only very broad, very loose indicators at best, especially for very niche items like these.

 

Then, when challenged on all of these things, you have claimed that those challenging you "hated" the book, "didn't like" the book, "had something against" the book or variants in general, didn't "appreciate" the book, were "toxic posting", and other sorts of personal and rather aggressive comments, none of which was accurate.

 

But you're going to tell everyone that you "consider yourself well versed with regards to this book", knowing only how many copies on the census there are, how many times it's shown up for sale on eBay, and how hard it was for you, personally, to find one....?

 

It's very clear just who has been in "wrongness" here. If you want to continue saying these things, by all means, let's keep discussing it.

 

Well, in fairness, he asked for it this time, this is, after all, an APPRECIATION thread.

 

Back on topic.... (please?)

 

You don't get to take the thread off topic, make whatever off topic personal comments you want to make, and then complain that the thread is "off topic."

 

No, the thread has never BEEN off topic...you just don't like being corrected.

 

No problem; no one does. But it's necessary, because there are people reading this who don't know as much, and will believe misinformation if it's not addressed.

 

It's nothing personal, Jay. Truly.

 

Doesn't look like the hammer price on that raw copy has ferreted any additional copies out of hiding.

 

-J.

 

We shall see, no?

[Lethal_Collector]

I am getting ready to sell my ASM variant collection. ASM vol 3 #1 cured me of my variant addiction. After checking ebay I was surprised that some books were selling well especially this one. For years my LCS pulled one of every ASM for me including extra prints and variants.

 

I was wondering what made this one so special and I found your discussion. I think it is a cool cover for sure and hearing what some of you were all discussing decided to put my 2 cents in.

 

I worked for all of the comic companies in the 90's and pre pres houses and printers so I know a bit of how these processes work.

 

1. Yes small print runs are usually more difficult to get good books because of the time it takes to set up everything and get good registered copies shooting out. However this is not the case for variant covers as all they are doing is swapping out 1 plate (4 actually for process color). The printer charges a small fee sometimes around $500 for a plate swap. So I can totally see them printing basically what they need.

 

2. Publishers usually order an overage of around 10% for various reasons but mainly to cover their order if there is a counting issue.

 

3. Publishers are in the business to make money and when I would visit my Marvel editor he had a tiny office and space would be at a premium. They would usually get one box of 25-50 books to hand out to other editors and the artists to hang on to and keep a couple for his/her reference. Why are books from the late 90's so much harder to get? Marvel was hurting and they were only printing what was ordered. I was around the day Marvel lade off 1/3 of their staff in '95.

 

Is it possible they are storing them in some warehouse somewhere? Sure. Is it likely? NO. Especially give the digital era.

 

4. Given the scarcity of which they appear in the market at conventions and what have you it could very well be a very low print run and those people who have one went out of their way to get one and are not letting it go.

 

Also, artists used to be on comp lists with all the printers and get one of everything that is printed. I had a room in the studio that was just stuffed to the ceiling with these books. It was a good way to see what people were up to.

 

To me arguing over syntax and whether something is rare is moot. If this is a book that is indeed scarce/rare and people continue to be variant hunters and completionists and collectors there will be a strong demand because people will not want to break up a collection.

 

My only decision is do I sell my 200+ ASM variant collection as a whole or piece it out.

 

Dell'Otto did a good job on the cover, its pretty cool.

 

I'm your guy, if the condition (and I guess price too) is right, shoot me a PM if you want to sell off some variants (thumbs u

 

Does this cover look as cool when turned upside down?

 

 

Jerome

[Jaydogrules]

Looks like recalledcomics has already picked up the sale of that last raw copy on ebay and updated their site...

 

http://recalledcomics.com/AmazingSpider-Man667DellOtto.php

 

Still no other copies hitting the market (or this thread). Not surprising since it took nearly a year for another copy to be offered even after a 9.6 sold for $1600 in November, 2014.

 

That should make the sour grapes posters in the CG thread happy since no one can buy something that is non-existent.

 

-J.