JUSTICE LEAGUE: PART ONE (11/17/17) 5 5

[ComicConnoisseur]

15 hours ago, topofthetotem said:

Does anybody think Affleck might be the problem?

With the recent Weinstein deluge of sexual harrasment/assault stories and his own past frat boy behaviour does anybody else think it potentially took the sheen of the shiny new Justice League movie? 

I would have no doubt that there are quite a few social justice warriors whom would have made a point to skip the  JL movie because of him.

I personally find him to be highly unlikeable at least his public persona anyways, however, I can still separate him from the character he plays in a movie some can’t. 

Absolutely. My reasoning is though when I see him I think of Ben Affleck and not Batman. They need a new Batman that is not famous.

The worst thing that can be done to a superhero is getting a Tom Cruise, Ben Affleck, George Clooney or Johnny Depp type to play them.

That's the kiss of death because we will take our focus off the character and put it on to that famous actors persona.

Imagine if Robert Redford, Al Pacino or Sylvester Stallone played Superman instead of Christopher Reeve?

[Bosco685]

Kevin Smith during a funny review of Justice League touches on the ever-changing comic book movie standard, and how studios just need to find their place in the genre (starts around 47:00). He also touches on how WB listened to what people disliked about Batman v Superman, and they made the jump. But not cutting a clear story that the average person can keep up with without being plugged into many fanboy details. It's very interesting.

Going from the gold standard of  Superman: The Movie to Batman (1989) to Fox's X-Men (2000) to Spider-Man (2002) to Nolan's Dark Knight Trilogy to finally Iron Man. WB/DC needs to stake a claim what it is going for, and go with it. Not try and force itself to repeat Marvel only.

[Bosco685]

51 minutes ago, drotto said:

Actually, I think in this situation Paramount is the unreasonable one.  I think WB did everything that was expected of them, and Paramount should have been willing to compromise.  But as usual it is to much to expect two corporate entities to do anything that may benefit one and not the other. WB for whatever reason has had a string of bad luck from a production standpoint, many things were beyond their control.

 

The reason we tend to pick these things apart is just the figures for making these movies has become astronomical. Way more than 99.999% of us will see in a lifetime. The average person can't understand (and this applies to many movies), how that much can be spent and potentially known fixable flaws make it into the final product. Now I am not talking about small editing inconsistencies or a ---script we may not like, but things that the company knows are sub-par, especially when they know their are legions of internet schmucks like us looking for things like this. But at the root of why we do it is ultimately we are fans and we want these movies to be good.  When we see mistakes or problems a certain measure of comic OCD kicks in, because of the notion that it may reflect badly on the movie and possibly the genre of comic films as a whole.

 

I realize that the entire previous paragraph is expecting too much out of what really is just a group of normal people.  People make mistakes, and are under pressure and time constraints just like in any other industry. It is also inherently easy to give the big faceless corporate entity a hard time.  As for why WB does not see to have a thicker skin about all this, they want to meet their two primary goals.  Make people happy and by making people happy making loads of money.  If they fail in mission one they risk failing in mission two. Which after a few missteps have  left them scrambling because their is so much money on the line.  Furthermore, the top level seems unsure about what has gone wrong so they are attempting to fix problems on the fly based on likely flawed market data (this is us) because they see their window for success as closing.  It really has become the perfect storm.

What is interesting in the situation is Geoff Johns was now going to be the Feige of the WB/DC portfolio, though teamed up with Jon Berg as the co-President of DC Films. At least, that was the assumption. So you would think he is the magic link across these movies in some well-planned roadmap for those films meant to be linked together. I still think DC doing standalone films is a smart move as well, forcing the standard of a movie having to be successful on its own legs.

Yet we see the CEO of Warner Bros. forced 2 hours in the one movie that should have gone longer. Light-hearted and uplifting became the standard to match audience demands for 'do it like Marvel'.  And in doing the latter, we end up with a chopped movie with unfinished CGI. One which many are still enjoying it - but NOT loving it. No matter the tone and direction, a solid film must be the standard.

Better folks have to say "That movie was too dark. But what a heck of a film and story!"

[Artboy99]

1 hour ago, Bosco685 said:

You are not kidding! One moment, the theme is 'WB should have offered Paramount an option so they were open to shaving Cavill's moustache'.

Then when it turns out WB did try to be reasonable (Heaven forbid we give it credit), the new complaint is why they didn't go makeup vs. CGI. Yet if Paramount was open to this, it would have suggested makeup as an agreeable option.

By the way, turns out Cavill pointed out prosthetics wouldn't work because of the action scenes in Mission Impossible. Most probably due to the sweat involved.

Paramount Reportedly Turned Down WB's Offer To Give Henry Cavill A CGI Mustache In MISSION: IMPOSSIBLE 6

NOW do some folks get it why people that appreciate these movies read these things and wonder how much we pick a production apart? It's like when business projects apply the 5 WHY'S to get to an answer, where you keep asking WHY until you get to the root of the problem. But with WB movies, it's the INFINITY WHY'S. Which then enough voices like this reach the studio, WB makes the mistake to keep second-guessing what it should do.

Not meaning to pick on you, drotto. It just fits the norm with WB/DC releases. Including Wonder Woman.

all WB needs to do is WRITE a great story and they won't need to second guess.

Wonder Woman is a perfect example: logical flow of the story, great character development and she does very heroic things ( crossing no man's land was fantastic! ) and the movie does extremely well amongst comic book viewers and the general population.

Want an example of extremely bad writing? Doomsday in BvS. Totally awful! They have the twitchy and annoyingly portrayed Lex Luthor take the body of Zod and shave off Zod's finger prints?? Then he takes Zod's body to the Kryptonian spacecraft and has the body transform into the creature they call Doomsday. So badly written. How does he know this will happen? It makes no sense. Why is Lex the person doing this he has no idea what the creature will actually do. Something capable of killing "a god on earth" (Superman) may not be controllable would Lex really put himself in that position?

A different way of writing it:

Have Lex be in control of a company that has bid for the contract to study the alien vessel for the government/ military. One of his hired scientists discovers energy readings from within that reveal a life form signature. Within the Kryptonian ship there is a stasis pod and inside it is Doomsday. He already exists just like in the comics. It adds to the mystery of the creature. I don't need to see a human fooling around with alien technology that he has absolutely no understanding of especially a human in the situation that Lex Luthor is: rich, powerful and tied into all sorts of things. There is no way Lex would be inside the ship himself: a lacky is instructed to go in and Lex watches on a view screen from the safety of his office. Doomsday is awoken and kills the lacky and Lex watches in horror. He then turns off his monitor and destroys all files that link him to this event.

[Bosco685]

Just now, Artboy99 said:

all WB needs to do is WRITE a great story and they won't need to second guess.

Agreed! Read above that I was writing while you were posting.

[Bosco685]

2 minutes ago, Artboy99 said:

Then he takes Zod's body to the Kryptonian spacecraft and has the body transform into the creature they call Doomsday. So badly written. How does he know this will happen? It makes no sense.

My only difference of opinion with this comment, and something you may have missed. The ship reveals its capabilities to Lex when he enters the ship, and uses Zod's fingerprints and the command key to take control. It then runs him through its capabilities.

 

[Bosco685]

Box Office: ‘Coco’ Beats ‘Justice League’ Over Holiday Weekend

Quote

Disney-Pixar’s “Coco” handily won the Thanksgiving holiday box office over Warner Bros.-DC Entertainment’s “Justice League,” with $71.2 million at 3,987 North American sites during the Wednesday-Sunday period.

 

“Justice League” pulled in about $60 million at 4,051 locations during the same timeframe. The superhero action-adventure, the fifth in the DC Extended Universe, has totaled $172 million in its first 10 days.

Looks like international markets drove some solid numbers as well.

[Artboy99]

4 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

My only difference of opinion with this comment, and something you may have missed. The ship reveals its capabilities to Lex when he enters the ship, and uses Zod's fingerprints and the command key to take control. It then runs him through its capabilities.

 

Yes I saw that. UGH so horrid.

If the ship is giving him the information they needed to at least add a short sequence where the ship instructs him what to. How does he know the finger prints off of Zod's body will gain entrance to the ship? Why does he bring the body with him? The cutting of himself so that his blood is introduced is so off base. I didn't hear the ship tell him to do that and it needs to be there: have the ship actually say "the remains are in a state where the process will not succeed without the addition of living DNA." Then have Lex ask "can my DNA enable the process?" "Analyzing...yes your DNA is a suitable match". Give the viewer something! None of this sequence makes sense at all.

My point is Lex is supposed to be a very smart guy and in a position of power in the world due to the enormous wealth of his empire. Lex would never put himself in the ship itself, it would be a hired "expert" under his employ. The video shows the creation of a creature that isn't in any way under his control (in fact it tries to kill him and Superman has to intervene).

This video portrays Lex as a madman, and that isn't Lex Luthor to me. This video is exactly what I am referring to: Lex is badly written, and a strong deviation from the character in the comics and it is in this capacity that WB is failing: they need to stay more true to the character properties like they did with Wonder Woman.

[paperheart]

On 11/19/2017 at 9:05 AM, paperheart said:

Mea Culpa:  $900 WW est ($350 US, $550 Int'l) adjusted down to $800MM ($300MM US, $500MM Int'l); CC's $600MM looking better

Mea Culpa Part II:  Let's just say $800MM was a hoped for best case scenario, but after this weekend let's try a more doable: $675MM ($250MM US, $425MM Int'l.)  That CC was a swami.

Edited November 26, 2017 by paperheart

[Bosco685]

4 minutes ago, Artboy99 said:

Yes I saw that. UGH so horrid.

If the ship is giving him the information they needed to at least add a short sequence where the ship instructs him what to. How does he know the finger prints off of Zod's body will gain entrance to the ship? Why does he bring the body with him? The cutting of himself so that his blood is introduced is so off base. I didn't hear the ship tell him to do that and it needs to be there: have the ship actually say "the remains are in a state where the process will not succeed without the addition of living DNA." Then have Lex ask "can my DNA enable the process?" "Analyzing...yes your DNA is a suitable match". Give the viewer something! None of this sequence makes sense at all.

My point is Lex is supposed to be a very smart guy and in a position of power in the world due to the enormous wealth of his empire. Lex would never put himself in the ship itself, it would be a hired "expert" under his employ. The video shows the creation of a creature that isn't in any way under his control (in fact it tries to kill him and Superman has to intervene).

This video portrays Lex as a madman, and that isn't Lex Luthor to me. This video is exactly what I am referring to: Lex is badly written, and a strong deviation from the character in the comics and it is in this capacity that WB is failing: they need to stay more true to the character properties like they did with Wonder Woman.

Sounds like what you desire many of these movies don't answer. Even the mighty Marvel Civil War with everything lining up perfectly in Zemo's plan was unrealistic.

But it's a comic book movie. I go to be entertained.

[Artboy99]

2 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

Sounds like what you desire many of these movies don't answer. Even the mighty Marvel Civil War with everything lining up perfectly in Zemo's plan was unrealistic.

But it's a comic book movie. I go to be entertained.

Well I guess I have to acknowledge that. Some of the movies deliver, others leave me wondering why they didn't at least try to make it the best film they could possibly make. Without excellent writing these films are just popcorn fair with fantastic CGI moments of explosions.

[Bosco685]

3 minutes ago, Artboy99 said:

Well I guess I have to acknowledge that. Some of the movies deliver, others leave me wondering why they didn't at least try to make it the best film they could possibly make. Without excellent writing these films are just popcorn fair with fantastic CGI moments of explosions.

Kevin Smith pointed something out from Justice League that I forgot. In the beginning of the movie, Batman catches a criminal to use him as Parademon bait. But while the criminal is right there, he says on his headset, "Alfred, did you see that?"

You just said an uncommon first name that would allow for someone to do a little research on a link. And then Batman jumps off the roof probably to pull together the Justice League. But he leaves the thief on the roof tied up with all the items he stole.

Now THAT is an example of bad writing. Including forgetting Batman tries to protect his identity.

[Artboy99]

4 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

Kevin Smith pointed something out from Justice League that I forgot. In the beginning of the movie, Batman catches a criminal to use him as Parademon bait. But while the criminal is right there, he says on his headset, "Alfred, did you see that?"

You just said an uncommon first name that would allow for someone to do a little research on a link. And then Batman jumps off the roof probably to pull together the Justice League. But he leaves the thief on the roof tied up with all the items he stole.

Now THAT is an example of bad writing. Including forgetting Batman tries to protect his identity.

agreed.  I am sure Batman can capture one of the parademons without the criminal.

[Bosco685]

Box Office Pro is stating Justice League was slightly higher than $60M, which had a estimate range of $60-$63M.

Studio Weekend Estimates: ‘Coco’ Sings w/ $49M/$71M 3-Day/5-Day, ‘Justice League’ Holds w/ $40.7M/$62.8M

Quote

Running a reasonably close second was Warner Bros.’ Justice League, which took in $40.7 million over the three-day frame and $62.8 million since Wednesday.

 

The superhero team-up film demonstrated a good hold after its weaker-than-expected $94 million debut last weekend. The film’s 57% drop is an improvement over several previous DCEU titles including Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice (69%) and Suicide Squad (67%). Wonder Woman remains the champ in that department, however, with a drop of just 43% in its second weekend.

 

While much was made of the Justice League’s sub-$100 million debut last weekend, the hold was more solid than expected.

 

[WeR138]

Saw it yesterday.  Enjoyed it way more than I thought I would. 8.0 for me.  Would have no problem seeing this a 2nd time.

Spoiler

Marvel has had a big head-start, and DC is the one who has to tease a Super-Villain team-up movie?  I don't care which one does it, I'm just tired of seeing the played out "Minion Army" approach.

 

[Ken Aldred]

3 hours ago, ComicConnoisseur said:

Imagine if Robert Redford, Al Pacino or Sylvester Stallone played Superman instead of Christopher Reeve?

They did seriously consider having Nicholas Cage as Superman at one point. 

Miscast and bad enough in the Ghost Rider films.

 

[NewEnglandGothic]

2 hours ago, paperheart said:

Mea Culpa Part II:  Let's just say $800MM was a hoped for best case scenario, but after this weekend let's try a more doable: $675MM ($250MM US, $425MM Int'l.)  That CC was a swami.

 

[Bosco685]

23 minutes ago, WeR138 said:

Saw it yesterday.  Enjoyed it way more than I thought I would. 8.0 for me.  Would have no problem seeing this a 2nd time.

  Reveal hidden contents

Marvel has had a big head-start, and DC is the one who has to tease a Super-Villain team-up movie?  I don't care which one does it, I'm just tired of seeing the played out "Minion Army" approach.

 

That's just not going to work around here. You're supposed to celebrate a series of dislikes. Then cheer each other on with these dislikes.

Spoiler

I did like the tease about a Legion of Doom. So much great material to source.

 

[Bosco685]

One of the best uses of a superhero's powers to pull off a joke was with Barry Allen in the prison line.

Spoiler

 

When the prison guard asked if there was a prescription to go with those...

[Wall-Crawler]

4 hours ago, ComicConnoisseur said:

Absolutely. My reasoning is though when I see him I think of Ben Affleck and not Batman. They need a new Batman that is not famous.

The worst thing that can be done to a superhero is getting a Tom Cruise, Ben Affleck, George Clooney or Johnny Depp type to play them.

That's the kiss of death because we will take our focus off the character and put it on to that famous actors persona.

Imagine if Robert Redford, Al Pacino or Sylvester Stallone played Superman instead of Christopher Reeve?

Agree with this 100%.

The worst recent example I can think of is Will Smith as Deadshot...I never saw "Deadshot", I saw Will Smith and combined that with the fact he never really wore his signature mask, well...