Spiderman 62 cover - get your bets in

[Peter G]

Okay, the bet I'll get in now is that the future owner of the ASM 62 will have a nice, tasteful ceremony, and the next morning hang the Strathmore outside the window so the town can cheer.

 

Ok, now you are being silly. If one were to flaunt ones wealth like that, the peasants might decide to storm the Bastille.

[stinkininkin]

It's not the most detailed Romita cover, but probably the sexiest.

 

Babes > backgrounds

 

Yeah, there's that too.

 

I guess part of my point on this cover specifically (and "condition" aside) was this piece doesn't seem outside the range of what would be considered typical of Romita's work at this time, at least enough to adversely affect the esteem in which it should be held, or the value. I'm not a big Romita guy, but it looks expertly drawn, beautifully inked (never noticed how much Romita inks can look like vintage Dave Cockrum inks, which I love) with the added bonus of a sexy babe. It just doesn't really strike me as "sparse" in content compared to other Romita work at the time, even acknowledging that Romita would do full background covers and pages, depending on what was needed/intended. Does this one strike Romita fans as unusually empty, distracting in it's non Romita orthodoxy? The only strike against this cover that hit me when it came up on Heritage was that it was a Spidey/Medusa image, with Medusa not being any significant part of the Spidey universe. That's where I thought a discount might (or might not) apply.

 

On a related note, I will concede that once an artist defines and hones the terms of his artistic style, he usually needs to stay within that box to satisfy his fans and his market. Jim Lee/Scott Williams art was brought up as an example, and I would agree that once we established the general approach to out style, it was in our interest commercially to not stray too far outside of that box.

 

So to the Romita experts out there, does this ASM 62 really fall outside of the Romita box to make it less desirable? And yeah, I'm now avoiding the condition question since it seems we all have different tolerance ranges for what is acceptable and what's not. This cover is fine with me, but I'd be lying if I said I never took issue with condition when it comes to OA, and have in fact had professional restoration done on multiple pieces to make a piece less distracting due to the ravages of age.

 

 

Scott

 

 

[delekkerste]

What part of my "Which doesn't mean you shouldn't (always) use every avenue to bargaining something down to your advantage ;\) " made you feel the need to restate it redundantly yourself?

 

Oh, I don't know, could it be that it was your wildly fanciful statement that preceded it that said "none of that matters, even if it's torn in half"? You may not mind if a piece is torn in half for your keepers, but, regardless of whether we agree that this should be used as a bargaining tool, I doubt you'll find many (any?) others here who are going to agree that it doesn't matter. Condition matters and impacts desirability. Full stop. Obviously, we give a wide berth compared to a condition-oriented hobby like comics. But, for serious alterations, damage and issues, it matters. Piece torn in half? Matters. Piece colored in? Matters. Amateur inking in ballpoint pen? Matters. Big chunk missing? Matters. Extensive marker use? Matters. And not just in determining how much to pay, but also how much you're going to enjoy it.

[delekkerste]

Yes you and I disagree. Torn in half is hardly a deal-kill for me. Ever heard of restorers?

 

You're moving the goalposts again. Saying that torn in half matters is not the same as saying that torn in half is a deal-killer.

 

If I had found the X-Men #172 cover art and it was torn in half, or colored in, or the previous owner had drawn a doodle in the UPC box area for the hell of it, would it have been a deal-killer? No. Would it have impacted both my willingness to pay up for it and my ability to enjoy it? Yes.

[bocaratondefense]

 

Oh, I don't know, could it be that it was your wildly fanciful statement that preceded it that said "none of that matters, even if it's torn in half"? You may not mind if a piece is torn in half for your keepers, but, regardless of whether we agree that this should be used as a bargaining tool, I doubt you'll find many (any?) others here who are going to agree that it doesn't matter. Condition matters and impacts desirability. Full stop. Obviously, we give a wide berth as opposed to a condition-oriented hobby like comics. But, for serious alterations, damage and issues, it matters. Piece torn in half? Matters. Piece colored in? Matters. Amateur inking in ballpoint pen? Matters. Big chunk missing? Matters. Extensive marker use? Matters. And not just in determining how much to pay, but also how much you're going to enjoy it.

 

Of course all of those condition issues matter. The paste-up figures on the board bother me for this particular cover, and it would certainly affect the amount that I am willing to bid.

 

 

[Nexus]

I'm speaking in broad generalities here, but it is often the case that more detail in a given work is a shortcut to hiding issues with composition, anatomy, etc. and so on.

 

Or to put it another way, sometimes a million and one notes is not a sign of a musician's virtuosity, so much as an exercise in practice and wanking for the sake of having anything worthwhile to say. It is not difficult to find artists who paint so photorealistically as to be almost indistinguishable from an actual photograph, and yet so few bring anything of interest to the table except a honed skill. Without bringing something more (and a good dose of creative fearlessness behind it) the work falls flat creatively.

 

It is not uncommon for an artist's work to simplify or streamline over the years, as they recognize what is important in an image and what is not. And it is also not uncommon for the layman to see that change and long for the more "detailed" years, and totally missing the growth in efficacy in the new work.

 

And in other experienced and knowing hands, the occasional simplification of a specific work is created in contrast against a large body of busy work. It is not because said artists was lazy that month, but done to punctuate a moment.

 

There is power in that when done with intention. Much the same as in music. When it is loud all the time, it can actually lack the power of a piece of music that uses loudness sparingly but effectively.

 

I think the concept of more-ink-the-better is laughable were it not a bit sad, but I'd be an insufficiently_thoughtful_person if I didn't recognize it as true where the layman and their monies are concerned. So it's a good thing I've never used those as guideposts on what interests me, and prefer to judge based on my own eye and heart instead.

 

My .02¢

 

Excellent, as always, Eric.

 

Mignola is an obvious example. Jorge Zaffino, an artists' favorite, is another.

 

To me, similar to "more-ink-the-better" is "bigger-the-paper-the-better". Specifically as it relates to twice-up art. Of course, all else being equal, the larger board is the tie-breaker. But it does seem that a lesser image will be favored over a stronger one in the marketplace, if it's drawn bigger. Dealers will tout "twice-up!' when there's nothing else to sell...sadly, that's often enough for collectors.

[vodou]

What part of my "Which doesn't mean you shouldn't (always) use every avenue to bargaining something down to your advantage ;\) " made you feel the need to restate it redundantly yourself?

Oh, I don't know, could it be that it was your wildly fanciful statement that preceded it that said "none of that matters, even if it's torn in half"? You may not mind if a piece is torn in half for your keepers, but, regardless of whether we agree that this should be used as a bargaining tool, I doubt you'll find many (any?) others here who are going to agree that it doesn't matter.

And I care about that why exactly? My taste and purchases aren't ruled by committee majority. For sure I'm not after the approval of others, attaboys, etc...else I'd share my collection on CAF, watch my hit and comment counts closely, and hope (pray) to one day have a featured piece on the front page. Well no to all that, as I think you know, which is neither here nor there except that I tend to keep my own counsel on such things. What the market thinks, individual collectors think, after I've made my deal for a keeper...it's mine and it's not leaving. When I write "keepers", I mean to the grave. The market 'discounting' my errors in judgement (of what the market is okay with)...simply immaterial. Now I'll forgive you for confusing that statement with the ones so many others throw around, about a week before their car breaks down, wife gets pregnant, whatever, and they have to "sell it all, even the keepers, but no hosers or lowballers please" ha ha ha. But that's not me. So again, why would I care what the market thinks of it, after I purchase? And if it seems I'm trying to convince you of something...I'm not.

...but also how much you're going to enjoy it.

You and "others"...if you say so. But not me. I'm an open-minded person though...let's never say never, I'll leave that door open.

[vodou]

Yes you and I disagree. Torn in half is hardly a deal-kill for me. Ever heard of restorers?

 

You're changing the goalposts again.

You're making too much of it. Price is the potential deal-kill, not condition, unless I don't plan on keeping (to the grave). Then I very much care how the market of the future may discount something...sheee-ooot there's money on the line. Always important!

[Nexus]

One of my biggest collecting regrets actually centers around a sort of snobbish mindset back in the 90s. I passed on a number of fantastic pages from Duncan Fegredo's Enigma. It's still a low rent book (and art) by most standards even today, when it comes to fiscal values.

 

But I really loved that story, and those drawings. I wanted art from it badly. When I saw the originals in a huge pile at Scott Eder's table, I excitedly went through them all. And to my great regret today, I passed on every single one. The pages were a total mess of pasteovers, whiteout, etc, and so on. Almost to the point of collage.

 

And there's the rub. My 40-something year old brain sees that work in hindsight not available to my 20-something year old brain. What a magnificently unique example of funny-book process. Some of those pages represented what comic book art is, to an extreme degree. They showed a true and pure process with a complete disregard for what came after. And in some ways the artist's current (at the time) working method. Something lost in today's computer world, with fixes easily accomplished away from the physical piece.

 

James Harren's art is similar to what you describe here, if not quite as extreme. His work also resonates strongly with other artists, across all eras (a lot of vets come by the table to chat him up and he has artist fans from outside comics as well). None of them are bothered by his process, they pick up what they like, what catches their eye. The only ones who ever remark on it are collectors.

[AKA Rick]

I'll agree about condition and it just like with high grade comics, different things matter to different people. Some can overlook one thing and accept another flaw.

 

For me, it's more of my own personal quirk... one somewhat deal breaker in terms of paying fair market value (i.e. not saying I'd kick something out of bed that came cheap) is when there's a personalized autograph within the artwork itself. I also don't like the heavy use of paste-ups/stats. But, oddly, I'd accept art with missing paste-ups such as word balloons, as well as any white-out original touch ups. I generally don't like modern art where there's patches, or it's on 2 pieces of board that were merged in the production process. From an investment standpoint because the field tells me it's less desirable, I don't really like finished pieces which are inks over bluelines. I also don't really like light penciled pieces, or paneled pages with the "x" indicating where areas should be blacked out. I do love pieces that look exactly like the published cover/page, 'thus my preference to the older art with the dialogue.

 

Luckily I do have a lot of filters that enables me to pass on a lot of artwork without flinching too much.

[Mercury8989-migration]

The Detective #28 is actually ripped in half as that's how it was found in the dumpster. Guess we have to discount its value based on that fact. There being substitutes and all for that cover.

[Bronty]

agreed. Like the detective 30

[comix4fun]

Oh, like that wasn't what you did to Vampi the moment that nasty old frame came off??

 

 

I would never do that to an Enric Vampi painting.

 

That's what Adam Hughes commissions are for.

 

 

 

Enric and Gonzalez were heavy duty 70's fapping material....and you know it!

 

 

[comix4fun]

agreed. Like the detective 30

 

 

 

Amazing the mods let this shill account, of the guy you're agreeing with, run for so long.

 

Krazy!

[Bronty]

agreed. Like the detective 30

 

 

 

Amazing the mods let this shill account, of the guy you're agreeing with, run for so long.

 

Krazy!

 

So I've heard. At least he's better behaved these days

[comix4fun]

agreed. Like the detective 30

 

 

 

Amazing the mods let this shill account, of the guy you're agreeing with, run for so long.

 

Krazy!

 

So I've heard. At least he's better behaved these days

 

 

Check his posts in the Watercooler....taking shots at Veterans, Police Officers....calling them saps for their service, that they don't deserve gratitude or thanks or respect.

 

About how being a police officer isn't dangerous, worthy of benefits, worthy of respect whatsoever.

 

Classy.

[Bronty]

agreed. Like the detective 30

 

 

 

Amazing the mods let this shill account, of the guy you're agreeing with, run for so long.

 

Krazy!

 

So I've heard. At least he's better behaved these days

 

 

Check his posts in the Watercooler....taking shots at Veterans, Police Officers....calling them saps for their service, that they don't deserve this gratitude or his thanks or his respect.

 

About how being a police officer isn't dangerous, worthy of benefits, worthy of respect whatsoever.

 

Classy.

 

 

alright mods where's the banhammer?

[Eric Seffinga]

James Harren's art is similar to what you describe here, if not quite as extreme. His work also resonates strongly with other artists, across all eras (a lot of vets come by the table to chat him up and he has artist fans from outside comics as well). None of them are bothered by his process, they pick up what they like, what catches their eye. The only ones who ever remark on it are collectors.

 

Felix,

 

It's so funny you chose him as an example. Or maybe more apropos than anything?

 

Partly because you know I'm a fan, and partly because you couldn't have known that the one piece of his you have (had?) that I have almost purchased a dozen times this last year, was his variant cover to Rumble #1. Which was an instant favorite.

 

My sitting on the fence in this case was more about where to hang it (the rooms of the house are so heavily organized) and yet there's part of me that still really wants it. And the draw? It's unlike any other cover. It's mostly blank. And there's a big old pasteup on there. Compared to all the other covers, it's a quiet moment, and it's right at the beginning of his run, which is artistically ballsy as hell. But it just speaks louder of the man's talent.

 

Apologies for absconding with your images, but to illustrate the point, and at my own peril for having not hit that buy button yet...

 

A 3-page sequential taste of what's in that issue...

 

 

The man knows action. He's managed to meld the best of more modern eschewing of panel borders, and the speed lines of manga previously adopted by the likes of Miller et al. with the classic techniques of sequential storytelling. His work readily shows comedy, action, emotion. It carries his own style that is easily recognizable, and it works easily without dialogue when it needs to. Really stellar stuff.

 

 

and the alt cover in question... with the exception of the style thing, it lacks a lot of what's in the interiors. It's an anomaly of sorts. And yet it's very compelling for what it doesn't show or say. The space between the notes as it were.

 

 

 

[Nexus]

Thanks for this write-up! I will forward to James, I know he'll appreciate it.

 

and the alt cover in question... with the exception of the style thing, it lacks a lot of what's in the interiors. It's an anomaly of sorts. And yet it's very compelling for what it doesn't show or say. The space between the notes as it were.

 

 

 

This is funny, because we've sold almost every single cover to the series so far...except for this one. And I suspect for the "more-ink-the-better" market reality we've been discussing. I don't subscribe, though, and it appears neither do you!

 

As a side note...I just sold a complete issue of RUMBLE to an under-the-radar buyer. Think creator of wildly popular multimedia property. Sorry, that's all I can say, but this guy has been active lately. And he has great taste;) I wouldn't be surprised if he enters the conversation more and more going forward.

[delekkerste]

This is funny, because we've sold almost every single cover to the series so far...except for this one. And I suspect for the "more-ink-the-better" market reality we've been discussing. I don't subscribe, though, and it appears neither do you!

 

Yep, there's personal preference and then there's market reality. It is what it is.

 

 

As a side note...I just sold a complete issue of RUMBLE to an under-the-radar buyer. Think creator of wildly popular multimedia property. Sorry, that's all I can say, but this guy has been active lately.

 

Guessing his identity based on the above is the equivalent of a Par-1 hole in golf. There's only one "creator of a wildly popular multimedia property" who comes to anyone's mind that isn't still stuck in the 20th century.