There's a Restored 9.4 Tec 33 Blowing up on Ebay

[sacentaur]

If we can just pick and chose who to believe then without ever seeing the comics for oursleves I will go with Matt and Emma from this comment

 

''We use only professional, archival, conservation level materials. We don't use Xerox. In fact we constantly remove Xerox from previously restored books.''

 

Sounds like they know what they are doing to me and not the amateurs or destroyers of comics that it seems you would like all to believe. From the start you have been very anti them which leads me to believe you are the one with an agenda.

 

Before you say I have been very pro them I actualy haven't. I have always said and kept to my point that until I had one to hand I wouldn't go around slating their work publicially.

 

Tbh it is very unprofessional and discourteous to do so

 

Since you are replying to one of your own posts, I'm not sure who the "you" is.

 

Looks like he got a bit confused in his zeal to push his agenda.

 

It's clear to me that "matterus023" is trolling, so I don't see any compelling reason to read or respond to him any further.

[*matterus023*]

If we can just pick and chose who to believe then without ever seeing the comics for oursleves I will go with Matt and Emma from this comment

 

''We use only professional, archival, conservation level materials. We don't use Xerox. In fact we constantly remove Xerox from previously restored books.''

 

Sounds like they know what they are doing to me and not the amateurs or destroyers of comics that it seems you would like all to believe. From the start you have been very anti them which leads me to believe you are the one with an agenda.

 

Before you say I have been very pro them I actualy haven't. I have always said and kept to my point that until I had one to hand I wouldn't go around slating their work publicially.

 

Tbh it is very unprofessional and discourteous to do so

But you had them do work for you. How can we believe you when you obviously have something to gain financially from your association with them. They said they don't have clients. What they do is find folks with previously restored books and offer to do additional work to improve the grade then split the profits on whatever the book sells for. A partnership in the book. You were partners with them on your Strange Tales. You are the one here with an agenda. But I really do appreciate the advice you gave me in the earlier post. Thanks.

 

I have also had work done by Trace Heft so does this mean I am not allowed to have an opinion on another thread if his name was brought up?

 

All you say pretty much is guess work.

 

''What they do is find folks with previously restored books and offer to do additional work to improve the grade then split the profits on whatever the book sells for.''

 

Is that WHAT THEY DO! Again you should choose your words more carefully as you are coming across all wrong. You may have the respect of many on here and like I put before I am sure you know your stuff but you haven't earned my respect of yet and if you keep making sweeping statements with nothing to back them up with then I will reply in the way I am

 

Plus you put how can we believe you. Believe what??

 

Al I have said AGAIN I will say it though is make a judgement for yourself not from what you hear. So what, you don't believe that? Makes no sense at all

[AJD]

 

What's my agenda ? I'm not selling or buying anything here.

 

But I still believe Matt was being diplomatic with his choice of words as the fact that CGC rejected the books for grading actually speaks for itself.

 

-J.

 

You have been relentlessly anti Voldemort from day one. But whatever.

 

I'm not sure that CGC's decision does speak for itself. I just pointed out that Matt N's comments were curiously worded. And the issue is clouded by commercial interests of CCS, CGC, the new restorers on the block and CBCS (as well as anyone owning or selling one of these books). When vested interests are involved, my instinct is always to try to get to first principles before making a judgment.

[*matterus023*]

I have made my points clear and now someone has said I am trolling which anyone with a decent level intelligence will clearly see I'm not I won't say anymore on the matter. Like I said sure Matt and Emma will answer people's questions as like everyone else I am in no position to answer them

 

Over and out

 

Deep breathe

[Jaydogrules]

My understanding is that the purpose of the grading system is to evaluate the degree of preservation of a book. That should exclude both "conserved" and restored books.

 

Maybe an entirely new grading paradigm should be enacted that grades how well a book has been recreated via restorative and "conservation" techniques.

 

That way a grader really can simply evaluate "the book before them".

 

-J.

[lou_fine]

Now it looks like a competing company are using new and different techniques to maximize the potential of previously restored books.

 

I didn't see any "new and different techniques" in what she listed.

 

I just assumed they were "new and different" since Matt called them questionable.

 

But if the techniques which they described are not new and different to CCS , I am not sure why Matt would called them questionable. Unless he means that any form or extent of restoration that does not conform to CCS's known and approved techniques are deemed to be questionable.

[nearmint]

Now it looks like a competing company are using new and different techniques to maximize the potential of previously restored books.

 

I didn't see any "new and different techniques" in what she listed.

 

I just assumed they were "new and different" since Matt called them questionable.

 

But if the techniques which they described are not new and different to CCS , I am not sure why Matt would called them questionable. Unless he means that any form or extent of restoration that does not conform to CCS's known and approved techniques are deemed to be questionable.

 

Sure, that's possible. Maybe the techniques do damage over time, or simply require so much recreation that there's little original left.

[sacentaur]

Now it looks like a competing company are using new and different techniques to maximize the potential of previously restored books.

 

I didn't see any "new and different techniques" in what she listed.

 

I just assumed they were "new and different" since Matt called them questionable.

 

But if the techniques which they described are not new and different to CCS , I am not sure why Matt would called them questionable. Unless he means that any form or extent of restoration that does not conform to CCS's known and approved techniques are deemed to be questionable.

 

Sure, that's possible. Maybe the techniques do damage over time, or simply require so much recreation that there's little original left.

 

That's the way I interpreted it, Jeff - I thought Matt's post was both insightful and courteous.

[lou_fine]

...

 

The point of professional restoration is to return a book back to as close to its original state as possible using reversible materials. When work becomes so extensive that it becomes hard to tell what is real and what is recreated, it is impossible to accurately and fairly represent a grade to the market.

 

I'm intrigued by this comment. I know you're using some shorthand here, but if it is hard to tell the difference between original and recreated, surely that's the definition of successful restoration?

 

And if it really is that hard to tell, why does anyone have a problem with any grading company assigning a high apparent grade with accompanying notes of extensive restoration?

 

Playing devil's advocate for a moment, if perfect recreation becomes possible so that there is no way to tell, does the difference between blue and purple become moot?

 

These are unsettling possibilities.

 

I don't think Matt was saying "the work was so good we couldn't tell there was any work at all".

 

I think Matt was actually politely saying "the work is so pervasive and invasive there is not enough of the original book left to be graded at all".

 

 

I am quite sure if what you are thinking was true, Matt would have absolutely no problem rushing in and calling it "destruction" of a book.

 

CGC has always been quick to denounce anything that they deem to be destruction of a book, so I do not think they would change their MO for this competing company.

[nearmint]

...

 

The point of professional restoration is to return a book back to as close to its original state as possible using reversible materials. When work becomes so extensive that it becomes hard to tell what is real and what is recreated, it is impossible to accurately and fairly represent a grade to the market.

 

I'm intrigued by this comment. I know you're using some shorthand here, but if it is hard to tell the difference between original and recreated, surely that's the definition of successful restoration?

 

And if it really is that hard to tell, why does anyone have a problem with any grading company assigning a high apparent grade with accompanying notes of extensive restoration?

 

Playing devil's advocate for a moment, if perfect recreation becomes possible so that there is no way to tell, does the difference between blue and purple become moot?

 

These are unsettling possibilities.

 

I don't think Matt was saying "the work was so good we couldn't tell there was any work at all".

 

I think Matt was actually politely saying "the work is so pervasive and invasive there is not enough of the original book left to be graded at all".

 

 

I am quite sure if what you are thinking was true, Matt would have absolutely no problem rushing in and calling it "destruction" of a book.

 

CGC has always been quick to denounce anything that they deem to be destruction of a book, so I do not think they would change their MO for this competing company.

 

Steve liked to use the term destruction, usually when discussing trimming. He doesn't work for CGC anymore.

[woowoo]

I'm curious if creating things that weren't there originally should be considered restoration?

For instance...

 

 

WDC&S 1 8.5 from Heritage http://comics.ha.com/itm/golden-age-1938-1955-/walt-disney-s-comics-and-stories-1-dell-1940-cgc-apparent-vf-85-moderate-a-3-off-white-to-white-pages/a/7147-91167.s?ic4=GalleryView-Thumbnail-071515

 

Notice that the 9.8 has a black line down the spine. Emily and Matt created a spine line where none originally existed. It looks nice. But it isn't original. The red on the front and the blue on the back simply met and bled together, but there was never a black spine line. It must have helped them achieve the goal of a higher grade though. And that, in a nutshell, is why I have a problem with all of this.

 

This example makes me wonder whether what the Meyers are doing might be a game changer for how both companies evaluate heavily restored books. I'm not sure the "we grade the book in front of us" approach still works when the restoration is this extensive.

 

Perhaps the grading companies will eventually decide that people submitting extensively restored books will have to provide documentation of what was done, along with before and after photos, and so on.

 

In any event, you would think in this case the black line added to the spine should have been counted as a defect, bringing the grade down from 9.8.

 

Maybe it was down from 10. to 9.8 with the black line as a defect at this point i lost years of experience reading this thread.

[roulette44]

Jaydog - For crying out loud man -- please stop with the Libelous comments you continue to make. Please. Have a little respect for people that earn their living in this hobby (disclaimer - I am NOT one of those people). You can see what kinds of comments others make, which still voice opinions (some agree with yours), but the expression/delivery of how those statements are made is equally important.

 

Back to the issue at hand.....

 

I personally have a distaste for books being graded 9.8/9.6 in EP labels as well. I wonder if part of this is merely psychological because over the years one has been training to think of high grade, heavily worked frankenbooks as 8.5/9.0 with, perhaps, the occasional 9.2/9.4. Now, I'm not sure if techniques are improving and/or changing (and I'm certainly not qualified to opine) --- BUT --- any large inconsistency of grading methodology between the grading companies makes for some long-term challenges....and that's what worries me.

 

I would like to see better harmonization of the standards/methodologies for grading to minimize (or even eliminate) any perceptions of books being sent to one company over another for purposes of "getting the grade". I'm sure this has been discussed ad nauseum, but perhaps a governing body of sorts could provide a few key overarching rules .... yeah, yeah, easier said than done!

 

As for IGB, I too, thank them for their commentary and look forward to hearing more!

 

And a happy, healthy 2016 to all!

[SushiX]

[Jaydogrules]

Jaydog - For crying out loud man -- please stop with the Libelous comments you continue to make. Please. Have a little respect for people that earn their living in this hobby (disclaimer - I am NOT one of those people). You can see what kinds of comments others make, which still voice opinions (some agree with yours), but the expression/delivery of how those statements are made is equally important.

 

Back to the issue at hand.....

 

I personally have a distaste for books being graded 9.8/9.6 in EP labels as well. I wonder if part of this is merely psychological because over the years one has been training to think of high grade, heavily worked frankenbooks as 8.5/9.0 with, perhaps, the occasional 9.2/9.4. Now, I'm not sure if techniques are improving and/or changing (and I'm certainly not qualified to opine) --- BUT --- any large inconsistency of grading methodology between the grading companies makes for some long-term challenges....and that's what worries me.

 

I would like to see better harmonization of the standards/methodologies for grading to minimize (or even eliminate) any perceptions of books being sent to one company over another for purposes of "getting the grade". I'm sure this has been discussed ad nauseum, but perhaps a governing body of sorts could provide a few key overarching rules .... yeah, yeah, easier said than done!

 

As for IGB, I too, thank them for their commentary and look forward to hearing more!

 

And a happy, healthy 2016 to all!

 

Dude what the hell are you talking about ? There have been at least two dozen other people on here who have posted far stronger opinions than I have on the subject and yet you choose to single me out and classify my OPINIONS as being "libelous"?

 

Back off brother.

 

If the grown ups who "make a living in this hobby" can't handle a little scrutiny and criticism of their product then maybe they should quit reading these boards and go cry in a corner somewhere.

 

-J.

 

 

[Flash105]

This is what has always bothered me about comics - Grading. We can't be happy with a natural increase in a books value, so we have to create an arbitrage to make more money. Originally this was selling restored books as original and over grading on the sell and under grading on the buy. CGC took that away from sellers, so now we have the pressing and resto game going to create "additional value". Sometimes it makes me want to collect 2.0-3.0 copies so I don't have to worry. But I like a pretty book just like the next guy.

 

As long as people can game the system and make money it will happen. As far as igb, their work looks fantastic. I do not understand everything they are doing but from the outside, it looks like they are just putting more effort, time, and ability into each job than the competition. Restoration is an art until itself and not just something mechanically done. For that reason, if they are better than Matt or Susan, then they will get higher grades. That has not been acknowledged as far as I can tell.

 

I do not begrudge them to make a dollar on that but to me with the dollars being made on books and the number of books that will show up on the market, we might be killing the goose that laid the golden egg. The only reason our books our worth anything is that there is a perception that there is someone who will buy them for more. Ask the dutch how that worked out with tulips. Rarity has nothing to do with value. There are plenty of rare items that are worth nothing.

 

Last point- how to value that Tec 33. It looks like a 6.0 R sold for 14K. If they have over a hundred hours of labor on the book, a value of over 30K does not seem unreasonable to me.

[sacentaur]

Last point- how to value that Tec 33. It looks like a 6.0 R sold for 14K. If they have over a hundred hours of labor on the book, a value of over 30K does not seem unreasonable to me.

 

To me, it's irrelevant how many hours igb has put into the book - it's the final product that ultimately matters.

 

While there's no denying igb's artistic skill, the overriding problem is that their work looks totally fake to my eye. Looking at their scans, the first thing that comes to mind is recreation, not restoration.

 

Something like this gives new meaning to the term "painted cover" - it looks more like a xerox copy or a poster, rather than a comic book.

 

[Flash105]

Last point- how to value that Tec 33. It looks like a 6.0 R sold for 14K. If they have over a hundred hours of labor on the book, a value of over 30K does not seem unreasonable to me.

 

To me, it's irrelevant how many hours igb has put into the book - it's the final product that ultimately matters.

 

While there's no denying igb's artistic skill, the overriding problem is that their work looks totally fake to my eye. Looking at their scans, the first thing that comes to mind is recreation, not restoration.

 

Something like this gives new meaning to the term "painted cover" - it looks more like a xerox copy or a poster, rather than a comic book.

 

The time does matter. If they can't make a return on their time, they won't do the work. As far as the appearance goes, I agree. It looks too new. I like my old comics to appear vintage and have that smell. That is part of the perception we want. In my opinion, if you like the bright look that much, save yourself some money and buy moderns.

[lou_fine]

...

 

The point of professional restoration is to return a book back to as close to its original state as possible using reversible materials. When work becomes so extensive that it becomes hard to tell what is real and what is recreated, it is impossible to accurately and fairly represent a grade to the market.

 

I'm intrigued by this comment. I know you're using some shorthand here, but if it is hard to tell the difference between original and recreated, surely that's the definition of successful restoration?

 

And if it really is that hard to tell, why does anyone have a problem with any grading company assigning a high apparent grade with accompanying notes of extensive restoration?

 

Playing devil's advocate for a moment, if perfect recreation becomes possible so that there is no way to tell, does the difference between blue and purple become moot?

 

These are unsettling possibilities.

 

I don't think Matt was saying "the work was so good we couldn't tell there was any work at all".

 

I think Matt was actually politely saying "the work is so pervasive and invasive there is not enough of the original book left to be graded at all".

 

 

I am quite sure if what you are thinking was true, Matt would have absolutely no problem rushing in and calling it "destruction" of a book.

 

CGC has always been quick to denounce anything that they deem to be destruction of a book, so I do not think they would change their MO for this competing company.

 

Steve liked to use the term destruction, usually when discussing trimming. He doesn't work for CGC anymore.

 

Jeff;

 

You are 100% correct here!

 

It's just that Steve was speaking on behalf of CGC at the time, and as such, this may not have been his personal viewpoint. Another example of this was his defense of the multi-color labels used by CGC when he was there, but after awhile, personally felt that it resulted in the inadvertent and unintended stigmatization of restored books. Needless to say, the other grading company are not using the stigmatizing multi-color labels to differentiate between restored and unrestored books.

 

Yes, Steve certainly did have a way with words and was able to spin things such that it was easy for other people to buy on. Of course, this was helped by the fact that it would almost always result in extra money not only for CGC, but also for anybody else involved in the process, from the seller right through to the grading company and the auction houses.

 

Yes, I still remember Steve coining the phrase "maximization of potential" for the CPR process, which basically signaled CGC's unofficial approval of the undisclosed manipulation of books for higher grades. Needless to say, almost everybody jumped on board this bandwagon as dollar signs were flashing in front of their eyes.

 

The one that I really liked was when he stated that "disassembly and reassembly of a comic book, in and of itself does not constitute restoration". This statement was used to justified how a Mile High book was able to go all the way from a CGC 4.0 up to a CGC 7.5 before finally settling in at a CGC 9.0, all while residing in a blue CGC slab. Certainly goes a long way to explain why some people are more than willing to take their books apart and perform other kinds of undisclosed "improvements: to their books.

 

Since Steve supposedly receives a .pdf file with image progressions along with detailed explanations of the work and techniques used in the restoration of these books, I am quite sure that he would be upfront if he felt there were anything "destructive" being done to these books. After all, remember how aggressive and totally upset he was with the whole Ewert fiasco and how he basically forced him out of the comic book marketplace.

 

In addition, everybody here seems to swear to Steve's honesty and integrity with comic book related matters, right from the time that he started with CGC. I strongly doubt that he would knowingly do something that would be harmful to the comic book marketplace.

 

 

 

 

[roulette44]

Jaydog - For crying out loud man -- please stop with the Libelous comments you continue to make. Please. Have a little respect for people that earn their living in this hobby (disclaimer - I am NOT one of those people). You can see what kinds of comments others make, which still voice opinions (some agree with yours), but the expression/delivery of how those statements are made is equally important.

 

Back to the issue at hand.....

 

I personally have a distaste for books being graded 9.8/9.6 in EP labels as well. I wonder if part of this is merely psychological because over the years one has been training to think of high grade, heavily worked frankenbooks as 8.5/9.0 with, perhaps, the occasional 9.2/9.4. Now, I'm not sure if techniques are improving and/or changing (and I'm certainly not qualified to opine) --- BUT --- any large inconsistency of grading methodology between the grading companies makes for some long-term challenges....and that's what worries me.

 

I would like to see better harmonization of the standards/methodologies for grading to minimize (or even eliminate) any perceptions of books being sent to one company over another for purposes of "getting the grade". I'm sure this has been discussed ad nauseum, but perhaps a governing body of sorts could provide a few key overarching rules .... yeah, yeah, easier said than done!

 

As for IGB, I too, thank them for their commentary and look forward to hearing more!

 

And a happy, healthy 2016 to all!

 

Dude what the hell are you talking about ? There have been at least two dozen other people on here who have posted far stronger opinions than I have on the subject and yet you choose to single me out and classify my OPINIONS as being "libelous"?

 

Back off brother.

 

If the grown ups who "make a living in this hobby" can't handle a little scrutiny and criticism of their product then maybe they should quit reading these boards and go cry in a corner somewhere.

 

-J.

 

 

I don't expect you to acquiesce (or care that you won't), I'm merely asking you to stop going forward. You are making blanket statements as if they're undeniable truths (even based on partially incorrect information). You also put words in peoples' mouths (figuratively). Nothing wrong with expressing your point, but there is an appropriate way to do it.

 

I'm not going to start listing each point you've made along the way and the issues I see, but if you genuinely don't understand what I mean, then I'll help.

 

And scrutiny is always a good thing - so yes, let's continue to provide that, and look for ways to improve things. As an example, for those that share your opinion that restored books should be flagged as such more heavily --- I ask: wouldn't a consistent flagging approach across all grading companies be superior to one company using different colored slabs and the other one not? Separate conversation for another thread, but I can't help but feel we're entering challenging terrain here.

 

JD

[Depswa-migration]

 

CGC restoration seems to be inferior to IGB thus not willing to grade their books. I'm sure

if they didn't have a pony in the race it wouldn't be a problem.

 

Regardless of the feel or look, it's graded and sealed. The money will flow.