Question for Heritage and comiclink reps wrt Burkey admission 2 2

[jaybuck43]

Forgive my ignorance, but what is the difference between the above actions and what Bill Mastro was charged for by the FBI:

 

https://www.fbi.gov/chicago/press-releases/2015/former-owner-of-mastro-auctions-sentenced-to-20-months-in-federal-prison-in-shill-bidding-scam

 

 

Manufacturing of fake collectibles seems to be the more serious of the charges, although shilling was part of the conviction

 

Correct Mastro was the man behind doctoring the Wagner T-206 card. It is also of note that Mastro was the one who was running the auctions, not necessarily the seller, another important distinction.

[Richard Oh]

I'm pretty sure that no one will disclose the amount of transactions that shill bidding affected. I'm sure it was way more than we think, and the scope spans over a decade. We'll never get that money back, HA will not do a thing about it.

The more relevant question is even if he says he won't do it again, how can we believe it? I mean, yeah he'll get caught if he posts it back on his site a month later, so he'll obviously be more careful, but I just don't trust the process anymore. I think for me personally, I'll be avoiding HA.

[Mmehdy]

I'm pretty sure that no one will disclose the amount of transactions that shill bidding affected. I'm sure it was way more than we think, and the scope spans over a decade. We'll never get that money back, HA will not do a thing about it.

The more relevant question is even if he says he won't do it again, how can we believe it? I mean, yeah he'll get caught if he posts it back on his site a month later, so he'll obviously be more careful, but I just don't trust the process anymore. I think for me personally, I'll be avoiding HA.

.

 

I disagree that the auction houses will do nothing... That would expose them as a partner to Mike and possible punitive damages if criminal liability is involved in these transactions. The downside is too risky. I look to see what the leader, ha will do and watch CL and CC piggy back with their actions. Too much downside risk here for inaction.

 

I believe Mike has learned his lesson , it is all the other people you need to worry about.

 

The auction process has always been one of trust but you should always temper it with a price limit just to protect yourself

[Richard Oh]

The only lesson Mike really learned is to never admit anything on a public forum.

[Nexus]

I believe Mike has learned his lesson , it is all the other people you need to worry about.

 

Important takeaway, thanks Mitch.

[Peter G]

The only lesson Mike really learned is to never admit anything on a public forum.

 

The Internet is a dangerous place.

[Mmehdy]

The only lesson Mike really learned is to never admit anything on a public forum.

 

The Internet is a dangerous place.

.

 

 

This is the tip of the iceberg when it comes to auctions... These companies need to do damage control and look to the long run.... Just say it's not ok and upgrade software detection.. And send out a few coupons ... It's not rocket science

[Doc Joe]

There should be two types of incidents...

 

 

1) Someone (we will call her Patsy) bids to 5K and no one else wants it..Mikes Shill bids them up to 9K or 10K (which Mike thinks is fair) and then Patsy wins it for more than they should have had to pay but it hits Mike 'fair price'

 

2) Patsy bids to 5K and in fact (at that date and time) no one else is interested in the piece and they should have won it for 5K - but Mike thinks its worth more - so the shill bids it up to 5.5 K , Patsy wont bid anymore, so then Mike buys it back from the person and relists it on the web site. Pasty should be the rightful owner but is not.

 

So...

 

how many were situation number 1 and how many situation number 2

 

both are wrong in a fair auction. 1 seems wrongerer than 2.

 

And...exactly how did this work, was the shill sitting next to Mike at the time?

 

Was there a list sent out of what this piece should be worth, so if you see it going for less then bid up to this amount?

 

 

 

As has been said before when it comes to collectors...they would buy from Hitler if he had the piece they wanted....so I don't expect anything to come from the auction houses; I think they will expect it to go away and keep making coin

[Mmehdy]

There should be two types of incidents...

 

 

1) Someone (we will call her Patsy) bids to 5K and no one else wants it..Mikes Shill bids them up to 9K or 10K (which Mike thinks is fair) and then Patsy wins it for more than they should have had to pay but it hits Mike 'fair price'

 

2) Patsy bids to 5K and in fact (at that date and time) no one else is interested in the piece and they should have won it for 5K - but Mike thinks its worth more - so the shill bids it up to 5.5 K , Patsy wont bid anymore, so then Mike buys it back from the person and relists it on the web site. Pasty should be the rightful owner but is not.

 

So...

 

how many were situation number 1 and how many situation number 2

 

both are wrong in a fair auction. 1 seems wrongerer than 2.

 

And...exactly how did this work, was the shill sitting next to Mike at the time?

 

Was there a list sent out of what this piece should be worth, so if you see it going for less then bid up to this amount?

 

 

 

As has been said before when it comes to collectors...they would buy from Hitler if he had the piece they wanted....so I don't expect anything to come from the auction houses; I think they will expect it to go away and keep making coin

.

 

 

I could be wrong but I believe they will act responsibly.

[Doc Joe]

I could be wrong but I believe they will act responsibly.

 

I hope so, I really like all the guys at HA, Clink and CC.

 

 

[Rune]

 

both are wrong in a fair auction. 1 seems wrongerer than 2.

 

 

I'm not sure - in case 1 you got your Precious, maybe you paid more, but you still got her. In case 2 you lost her and got scars on your soul that may never heal!

 

I do like the shill bidding definition on eBay:

 

"Policy overview

Shill bidding happens when anyone—including family, friends, roommates, employees, or online connections—bids on an item with the intent to artificially increase its price or desirability [...] Shill bidding is also illegal in many places and can carry severe penalties."

http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/seller-shill-bidding.html

 

There's also a nice tutorial: http://pages.ebay.com/help/tutorial/sbiddingtutorial/q1.html

 

It'll probably be impossible to track all pieces and find a solution that'll please most persons involved, also because lost pieces may have been sold to other collectors a long time ago. Hopefully the current focus on this issue will reduce the chances of it ever happening again.

[vodou]

I could be wrong but I believe they will act responsibly.

 

I hope so, I really like all the guys at HA, Clink and CC.

 

By the way, as a small business owner myself...I know opportunity when I see it. Sometimes it's about making money, other times about improving market share and presence in the community you serve. This is opportunity knocking (ya hear it ComicLink and ComicConnect??)

 

Get ahead of your competitors and win the adoration of the hobby by leading instead of following. Talk to your lawyers and figure out how much you can disclose, hopefully everything re: Mike and his bidders, and make the statement. Then watch your competitors follow (really shuffle behind you, into the light) and the hobby be a better place immediately (but not for Mike and his proxy-bidding friends.)

[Nexus]

I believe Mike has learned his lesson , it is all the other people you need to worry about.

 

Important takeaway, thanks Mitch.

 

I wanted to also add that they should worry, too. If there could be this much anger with Mike, one of the most popular figures in the hobby, imagine the reaction if the exposed shiller was someone who WASN'T so well-liked. Which is pretty much everyone else.

 

I get that it wouldn't matter to some because they have no shame, but for their own self-preservation, they should realize that Mike might be the only guy who'd get a pass. I'm all for self-regulation, but the next guy who didn't learn from this deserves what they get (i.e. re-read voudou's posts).

 

(I know all these guys are monitoring these threads. I don't expect any of them to listen. I'm just saying this now because when one of them inevitably gets busted, I can point to this post.)

[artdealer]

I believe Mike has learned his lesson , it is all the other people you need to worry about.

 

Important takeaway, thanks Mitch.

 

I wanted to also add that they should worry, too. If there could be this much anger with Mike, one of the most popular figures in the hobby, imagine the reaction if the exposed shiller was someone who WASN'T so well-liked. Which is pretty much everyone else.

 

Yourself and my self included? ?

[Nexus]

I believe Mike has learned his lesson , it is all the other people you need to worry about.

 

Important takeaway, thanks Mitch.

 

I wanted to also add that they should worry, too. If there could be this much anger with Mike, one of the most popular figures in the hobby, imagine the reaction if the exposed shiller was someone who WASN'T so well-liked. Which is pretty much everyone else.

 

Yourself and my self included? ?

 

Mike has by far the most fans...which is why I think this all came as such a shock to so many.

 

We're nobodies next to Mike! But then we don't have to worry about getting busted shilling, either (well, at least I dont:P).

[artdealer]

And neither do I!

[Brian Peck]

[Mmehdy]

I could be wrong but I believe they will act responsibly.

 

I hope so, I really like all the guys at HA, Clink and CC.

 

 

I hope to hear something by tuedsay at least...from SOMEBODY

[BCarter27]

Here we are on Tuesday, and it looks like no company is going to issue a statement on this because it opens them up to too much liability. The only way to get this fixed is for someone to file complaints with the authorities. And I think many of us aren't sure if our lots were directly affected. So we are hesitating to file those complaints.

 

The amicable start to a solution would be for HA to email each of us privately and confirm our lots were not from this consignor. (We would have to believe them.) And then those that got the red flag emails would have to decide for themselves whether to file complaints and possibly pursue collective or individual action.

 

The above step would at least settle down the unaffected buyers enough to inspire confidence in the upcoming auctions.

 

The alternative is ALL of us file complaints with the authorities while simultaneously emailing HA asking if any of our lots were affected. Maybe we should all pinky-swear to a deadline to do so? Thoughts?

 

P.S. ComicConnect and ComicLink should also get out in front of this. Email their affected buyers and state they will refuse consignments from this seller until an investigation is resolved.

[Mmehdy]

Here we are on Tuesday, and it looks like no company is going to issue a statement on this because it opens them up to too much liability. The only way to get this fixed is for someone to file complaints with the authorities. And I think many of us aren't sure if our lots were directly affected. So we are hesitating to file those complaints.

 

The amicable start to a solution would be for HA to email each of us privately and confirm our lots were not from this consignor. (We would have to believe them.) And then those that got the red flag emails would have to decide for themselves whether to file complaints and possibly pursue collective or individual action.

 

The above step would at least settle down the unaffected buyers enough to inspire confidence in the upcoming auctions.

 

The alternative is ALL of us file complaints with the authorities while simultaneously emailing HA asking if any of our lots were affected. Maybe we should all pinky-swear to a deadline to do so? Thoughts?

 

P.S. ComicConnect and ComicLink should also get out in front of this. Email their affected buyers and state they will refuse consignments from this seller until an investigation is resolved.

 

well put....UNLESS SOMEBODY HAS SOMETHING TO HIDE...then total silence. I put all three companies on a even level...I don't think they were in on this with Mike, but covering it up...is wrong....given enough pressure, all 3 auction houses will do the right thing and be forthcoming.