DC Comics Rebirth

[BarryAllen]

So DC is just copying Marvel.....

 

 

Both will learn in the near future what their actions do to the readers.

 

90's all over again.

 

I don't mind the reboot. It happens and I'll continue reading Batman as I plan to always do because I enjoy the character.

 

I do however hope that they shock the industry and follow suit with Image rather than Marvel and cut out the majority of variants. Although I imagine it may hurt sales on launch, I feel it just may be what's needed right now for the long haul and increased readership. Just my opinion.

 

increased readership

 

What do variants have to do with readership?

Answer: Nothing at all...

 

Variants are aimed at the collector.

Readership is built with quality content...

 

I'll humor you with a response even though it baffles me why you are even allowed on the boards or have any interest in coming on here as all you do is spread negativity.

 

How many people do you think walk away from the hobby because they gave a crack at flipping or investing in variants and shortly discovered it was a horrible decision? Yes, even collectors.

 

I know quite few who walked away and never returned in the 90's and recently. Sure they could have just read what they enjoyed but apparently the sour taste was too great for them to stay.

 

Variants can be created for the collector but they also are used to boost sales and line pockets. They are not needed, collectors will continue to collect in most cases if they were no longer made.

 

I'm well aware that quality builds readership. If you don't see the current variant status as a issue I'll just agree to disagree because I see it as a large problem for the future.

 

*shrug*

 

Yes. Variants can discourage collectors.

These boards are ground zero for why the exist though, you're all chasing a buck.

 

This week Captain Marvel Hughes & Poison Ivy 1:25 dominated discussion.

 

No. Variants have NOTHING to do with readership.

 

I think you meant customer base.

 

That is a little leap in logic...

 

While it is clear that there is a group that uses modern variants as tools of speculation, that behavior really relies on a select few of the "ultra-rare" versions (or at least the perception that they are "ultra-rare") - while the bulk of the other variants go relatively unspeculated. To say that having multiple versions of a comic cover that may appeal to different people to drive a purchase behavior has nothing to do with readership is kind of silly.

 

I am sure that companies use variants as a means to drive increased short term demand; however, variants also drive readership because they are a tool that attracts new or returning buyers (which increases readership).

 

Side note - saying that "variants can discourage collectors" is also quite a leap to generalize a population of people. I understand that a few folks with OCD feel they "need" to have every issue of a particular title are frustrated with the speculative nature of a select few modern variant covers - but that is really a subset of the collecting population...and a whiny one at that.

 

:shrug:

[LarrysComics]

So DC is just copying Marvel.....

 

 

Both will learn in the near future what their actions do to the readers.

 

90's all over again.

 

I don't mind the reboot. It happens and I'll continue reading Batman as I plan to always do because I enjoy the character.

 

I do however hope that they shock the industry and follow suit with Image rather than Marvel and cut out the majority of variants. Although I imagine it may hurt sales on launch, I feel it just may be what's needed right now for the long haul and increased readership. Just my opinion.

 

increased readership

 

What do variants have to do with readership?

Answer: Nothing at all...

 

Variants are aimed at the collector.

Readership is built with quality content...

 

I'll humor you with a response even though it baffles me why you are even allowed on the boards or have any interest in coming on here as all you do is spread negativity.

 

How many people do you think walk away from the hobby because they gave a crack at flipping or investing in variants and shortly discovered it was a horrible decision? Yes, even collectors.

 

I know quite few who walked away and never returned in the 90's and recently. Sure they could have just read what they enjoyed but apparently the sour taste was too great for them to stay.

 

Variants can be created for the collector but they also are used to boost sales and line pockets. They are not needed, collectors will continue to collect in most cases if they were no longer made.

 

I'm well aware that quality builds readership. If you don't see the current variant status as a issue I'll just agree to disagree because I see it as a large problem for the future.

 

*shrug*

 

Yes. Variants can discourage collectors.

These boards are ground zero for why the exist though, you're all chasing a buck.

 

This week Captain Marvel Hughes & Poison Ivy 1:25 dominated discussion.

 

No. Variants have NOTHING to do with readership.

 

I think you meant customer base.

 

That is a little leap in logic...

 

While it is clear that there is a group that uses modern variants as tools of speculation, that behavior really relies on a select few of the "ultra-rare" versions (or at least the perception that they are "ultra-rare") - while the bulk of the other variants go relatively unspeculated. To say that having multiple versions of a comic cover that may appeal to different people to drive a purchase behavior has nothing to do with readership is kind of silly.

 

I am sure that companies use variants as a means to drive increased short term demand; however, variants also drive readership because they are a tool that attracts new or returning buyers (which increases readership).

 

Side note - saying that "variants can discourage collectors" is also quite a leap to generalize a population of people. I understand that a few folks with OCD feel they "need" to have every issue of a particular title are frustrated with the speculative nature of a select few modern variant covers - but that is really a subset of the collecting population...and a whiny one at that.

 

:shrug:

 

I've worked a cash register in a comic shop for 25 years, looking the customer in the eye & talking about their likes & dislikes.

Variants sell to collectors predominantly, some collectors read but not all.

 

Speculation is the reason variants exist.

CGC is the epicenter of speculation.

 

Variants exist because of you guys.

 

So there.

 

 

[Astoria]

Speculation is the reason variants exist.

CGC is the epicenter of speculation.

 

cant argue with that

[HighRadArt]

The New 52 After Birth...

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

There is no winning around here.

 

Everyone wants "their" version of a particular character and unfortunately when you have characters that are 20, 30, 40, 50, +60 years old - there has to be change.

 

New writers, new audiences, social climate changes, popular culture changes - everything changes. Net, comic characters have to change. Don't forget that until the last 10-15 years popular culture did not embrace adults reading comics. Once the Marvel movie industry boomed, wide/broad acceptance of adult comic readers spread like wildfire and changed the game on us. Where we were few, now we are legion. That, if nothing else, changes things.

 

Does that mean that new #1s have to happen...no, but it seems to be working consistently for Marvel (and more recently for Valiant). :shrug:

 

Please, resume complaining.

 

Coming up with quality stories is one thing but completely watering down unique characters is quite the opposite.

 

Over at Marvel it seems nothing makes characters unique anymore when there are multiple reiterations that copy off the original and exist in the same place. Soon when someone says Captain or Hulk or Wolverine anywhere from 2-5 characters will turn their heads assuming you are talking to them. Its really watering down the brands yet the companies can't see past there short term #1 sales goals at the moment.

 

:shrug:

 

You have an opinion and it comes from a place of frustration on what they are doing with the characters. "Watering-them down" may be how you characterize it, but to someone else it is new, fresh or in lockstep with popular culture.

 

Multiple characters have been played by multiple people for decades, there is nothing new about it. Maybe you don't like the new iterations - which is fine just as someone else really likes them. However, there isn't anything earth shattering going on here - the vast majority has been done before (even if in slightly different form).

 

However, let's be clear here: the companies that own these properties know more about sales than you do and more importantly, to large public corporations short-term sales are everything. There isn't a methodology that rewards long-term plays with media in the modern form of capitalism driven by the stock market. Popular culture changes too fast and they are tied too strongly to their share-holder returns for anything other than short-term sales to matter.

 

It is what it is.

 

I think the bottom line is that Marvel and DC, being small pieces of very large public corporations, are in it to sell merchandise, so if "Watering-them down" or however you want to put it, is what it takes to sell books, then that's what they are going to do. If it's a weaker creative product, but it sells more, then largely the people at the very top that drive those decisions don't care. That's why, with the exception of a few books done by creators that I enjoy, I avoid the big 2. For my shared-universe superhero fix I follow Valiant, since they're a comic book company first, interested in telling compelling stories (might be a result of a fan of the original line buying the rights). For other stuff, there's lots of good books being published by smaller companies that are also interested in the creative product first.

[BarryAllen]

There is no winning around here.

 

Everyone wants "their" version of a particular character and unfortunately when you have characters that are 20, 30, 40, 50, +60 years old - there has to be change.

 

New writers, new audiences, social climate changes, popular culture changes - everything changes. Net, comic characters have to change. Don't forget that until the last 10-15 years popular culture did not embrace adults reading comics. Once the Marvel movie industry boomed, wide/broad acceptance of adult comic readers spread like wildfire and changed the game on us. Where we were few, now we are legion. That, if nothing else, changes things.

 

Does that mean that new #1s have to happen...no, but it seems to be working consistently for Marvel (and more recently for Valiant). :shrug:

 

Please, resume complaining.

 

Coming up with quality stories is one thing but completely watering down unique characters is quite the opposite.

 

Over at Marvel it seems nothing makes characters unique anymore when there are multiple reiterations that copy off the original and exist in the same place. Soon when someone says Captain or Hulk or Wolverine anywhere from 2-5 characters will turn their heads assuming you are talking to them. Its really watering down the brands yet the companies can't see past there short term #1 sales goals at the moment.

 

:shrug:

 

You have an opinion and it comes from a place of frustration on what they are doing with the characters. "Watering-them down" may be how you characterize it, but to someone else it is new, fresh or in lockstep with popular culture.

 

Multiple characters have been played by multiple people for decades, there is nothing new about it. Maybe you don't like the new iterations - which is fine just as someone else really likes them. However, there isn't anything earth shattering going on here - the vast majority has been done before (even if in slightly different form).

 

However, let's be clear here: the companies that own these properties know more about sales than you do and more importantly, to large public corporations short-term sales are everything. There isn't a methodology that rewards long-term plays with media in the modern form of capitalism driven by the stock market. Popular culture changes too fast and they are tied too strongly to their share-holder returns for anything other than short-term sales to matter.

 

It is what it is.

 

I think the bottom line is that Marvel and DC, being small pieces of very large public corporations, are in it to sell merchandise, so if "Watering-them down" or however you want to put it, is what it takes to sell books, then that's what they are going to do. If it's a weaker creative product, but it sells more, then largely the people at the very top that drive those decisions don't care. That's why, with the exception of a few books done by creators that I enjoy, I avoid the big 2. For my shared-universe superhero fix I follow Valiant, since they're a comic book company first, interested in telling compelling stories (might be a result of a fan of the original line buying the rights). For other stuff, there's lots of good books being published by smaller companies that are also interested in the creative product first.

 

That is just silly. DC and Marvel are concerned with selling creative product just as much as Valiant or other smaller companies. Just like Valiant and other smaller companies are driven by profit just like DC and Marvel. The difference is that you can find something that is new or only re-booted a small number of times "fresher" versus the difficult task DC and Marvel have with their decades old characters.

 

The only difference between the "big 2" and everyone else being the perceived level of control that an individual writer/artist has, presumably less at the big two versus others. However, we know they all share writers and artists - so...it comes down to the characters. Superman is harder to keep "fresh" than Bloodshot and comes with far larger expectations, it really is that simple

[BarryAllen]

Speculation is the reason variants exist.

CGC is the epicenter of speculation.

 

cant argue with that

 

Sure you can, neither are true statements.

 

CGC is an enabler of speculation, but they are hardly the epicenter. Speculation largely exists today without graded books.

 

Variants exist to sell more copies of the same books and speculation is an economic force that is not exclusive to comics by any means. Speculation drives variant issues, but would exist without them (i.e. the thousands of other comic examples from 1st appearances, movies, tv, etc).

 

Two broad sweeping non-factual assumptions that truly have no logical merit but sound "catchy." All you need is a funny picture and you have another Facebook meme for comic geeks - this is just one step away from the stupidity of the Powerball nonsense meme where "$1.4 billion dollars split among the 300 million Americans is $4.6 million dollars per person - solving the economy!"

( the math doesn't make sense and neither do those statements)

 

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

There is no winning around here.

 

Everyone wants "their" version of a particular character and unfortunately when you have characters that are 20, 30, 40, 50, +60 years old - there has to be change.

 

New writers, new audiences, social climate changes, popular culture changes - everything changes. Net, comic characters have to change. Don't forget that until the last 10-15 years popular culture did not embrace adults reading comics. Once the Marvel movie industry boomed, wide/broad acceptance of adult comic readers spread like wildfire and changed the game on us. Where we were few, now we are legion. That, if nothing else, changes things.

 

Does that mean that new #1s have to happen...no, but it seems to be working consistently for Marvel (and more recently for Valiant). :shrug:

 

Please, resume complaining.

 

Coming up with quality stories is one thing but completely watering down unique characters is quite the opposite.

 

Over at Marvel it seems nothing makes characters unique anymore when there are multiple reiterations that copy off the original and exist in the same place. Soon when someone says Captain or Hulk or Wolverine anywhere from 2-5 characters will turn their heads assuming you are talking to them. Its really watering down the brands yet the companies can't see past there short term #1 sales goals at the moment.

 

:shrug:

 

You have an opinion and it comes from a place of frustration on what they are doing with the characters. "Watering-them down" may be how you characterize it, but to someone else it is new, fresh or in lockstep with popular culture.

 

Multiple characters have been played by multiple people for decades, there is nothing new about it. Maybe you don't like the new iterations - which is fine just as someone else really likes them. However, there isn't anything earth shattering going on here - the vast majority has been done before (even if in slightly different form).

 

However, let's be clear here: the companies that own these properties know more about sales than you do and more importantly, to large public corporations short-term sales are everything. There isn't a methodology that rewards long-term plays with media in the modern form of capitalism driven by the stock market. Popular culture changes too fast and they are tied too strongly to their share-holder returns for anything other than short-term sales to matter.

 

It is what it is.

 

I think the bottom line is that Marvel and DC, being small pieces of very large public corporations, are in it to sell merchandise, so if "Watering-them down" or however you want to put it, is what it takes to sell books, then that's what they are going to do. If it's a weaker creative product, but it sells more, then largely the people at the very top that drive those decisions don't care. That's why, with the exception of a few books done by creators that I enjoy, I avoid the big 2. For my shared-universe superhero fix I follow Valiant, since they're a comic book company first, interested in telling compelling stories (might be a result of a fan of the original line buying the rights). For other stuff, there's lots of good books being published by smaller companies that are also interested in the creative product first.

 

That is just silly. DC and Marvel are concerned with selling creative product just as much as Valiant or other smaller companies. Just like Valiant and other smaller companies are driven by profit just like DC and Marvel. The difference is that you can find something that is new or only re-booted a small number of times "fresher" versus the difficult task DC and Marvel have with their decades old characters.

 

The only difference between the "big 2" and everyone else being the perceived level of control that an individual writer/artist has, presumably less at the big two versus others. However, we know they all share writers and artists - so...it comes down to the characters. Superman is harder to keep "fresh" than Bloodshot and comes with far larger expectations, it really is that simple

That's *a* difference, but it's not the only difference. Note that I didn't say that DC and Marvel are not interested in selling a creative product; it's just not the primary motivator for a publicly-traded company.

[BarryAllen]

There is no winning around here.

 

Everyone wants "their" version of a particular character and unfortunately when you have characters that are 20, 30, 40, 50, +60 years old - there has to be change.

 

New writers, new audiences, social climate changes, popular culture changes - everything changes. Net, comic characters have to change. Don't forget that until the last 10-15 years popular culture did not embrace adults reading comics. Once the Marvel movie industry boomed, wide/broad acceptance of adult comic readers spread like wildfire and changed the game on us. Where we were few, now we are legion. That, if nothing else, changes things.

 

Does that mean that new #1s have to happen...no, but it seems to be working consistently for Marvel (and more recently for Valiant). :shrug:

 

Please, resume complaining.

 

Coming up with quality stories is one thing but completely watering down unique characters is quite the opposite.

 

Over at Marvel it seems nothing makes characters unique anymore when there are multiple reiterations that copy off the original and exist in the same place. Soon when someone says Captain or Hulk or Wolverine anywhere from 2-5 characters will turn their heads assuming you are talking to them. Its really watering down the brands yet the companies can't see past there short term #1 sales goals at the moment.

 

:shrug:

 

You have an opinion and it comes from a place of frustration on what they are doing with the characters. "Watering-them down" may be how you characterize it, but to someone else it is new, fresh or in lockstep with popular culture.

 

Multiple characters have been played by multiple people for decades, there is nothing new about it. Maybe you don't like the new iterations - which is fine just as someone else really likes them. However, there isn't anything earth shattering going on here - the vast majority has been done before (even if in slightly different form).

 

However, let's be clear here: the companies that own these properties know more about sales than you do and more importantly, to large public corporations short-term sales are everything. There isn't a methodology that rewards long-term plays with media in the modern form of capitalism driven by the stock market. Popular culture changes too fast and they are tied too strongly to their share-holder returns for anything other than short-term sales to matter.

 

It is what it is.

 

I think the bottom line is that Marvel and DC, being small pieces of very large public corporations, are in it to sell merchandise, so if "Watering-them down" or however you want to put it, is what it takes to sell books, then that's what they are going to do. If it's a weaker creative product, but it sells more, then largely the people at the very top that drive those decisions don't care. That's why, with the exception of a few books done by creators that I enjoy, I avoid the big 2. For my shared-universe superhero fix I follow Valiant, since they're a comic book company first, interested in telling compelling stories (might be a result of a fan of the original line buying the rights). For other stuff, there's lots of good books being published by smaller companies that are also interested in the creative product first.

 

That is just silly. DC and Marvel are concerned with selling creative product just as much as Valiant or other smaller companies. Just like Valiant and other smaller companies are driven by profit just like DC and Marvel. The difference is that you can find something that is new or only re-booted a small number of times "fresher" versus the difficult task DC and Marvel have with their decades old characters.

 

The only difference between the "big 2" and everyone else being the perceived level of control that an individual writer/artist has, presumably less at the big two versus others. However, we know they all share writers and artists - so...it comes down to the characters. Superman is harder to keep "fresh" than Bloodshot and comes with far larger expectations, it really is that simple

That's *a* difference, but it's not the only difference. Note that I didn't say that DC and Marvel are not interested in selling a creative product; it's just not the primary motivator for a publicly-traded company.

 

The primary motivator for virtually any company is profits...

 

Companies don't just do things for the sake of it, they do them in a fashion in which they believe they can make a profit. If what they are doing enables "creativity" then great for them, but the second what they are pushing isn't selling they will shift to whatever is necessary to exist.

 

You are romanticizing smaller comic companies as if they are art purists out there to further the comic medium. They are just trying to make money, plain and simple.

 

As far as to why you or anyone else might find their work "fresher," I go back to one of my original points that it is easier to do so with new characters or characters that have only been around for a limited time. It is much harder to do with characters like Superman who have been around for decades and each generation prefers a different version...

 

I like what Valiant, Image and others are doing too - but hating on DC and Marvel because they are constantly trying to reinvent is silly. Frankly without Marvel or DC, all the other companies wouldn't exist. Without the big two driving interest into the hobby, the others would wither and die overnight.

[simplyrob]

oh geez. when i saw this news, first thing i thought was how sorry i feel for everyone who buys sooooooo many books each week. i mean, I'm glad theres something for everyone and I'm sure fans will follow their favorite titles, but, the starting over again and again has got to be frustrating. holy smokes. thankful for my image titles more than ever.

[bcphillips119]

I've had the #1 registry set for New52 Batman for nearly 2 years... I stopped collecting them because of all of these ridiculous variants that are coming out with the and multiple extra prints. As a collector, I found it extremely irritating and a money pit with no upside. I decided last month to sell everything except 1-10 and focus on the ORIGINAL 1940 series key issues.

[RCheli]

As long as the stories are good, I'll buy it. I'm no longer bothered by renumbering; it's a battle I can never win, so I no longer try.

[Prince Namor]

Variants have nothing to do with readership. Sorry, but it's a fact.

If you eliminated them tomorrow, the people who still just READ comics, would still READ comics. Anyone who left because of it, really wasn't a comic book fan in the first place.

 

You don't buy a variant to READ it.

Stores don't order it for people to READ it.

It exists to get retailers to buy more copies.

Retailers use it to sell to customers interested in the COVER.

 

At this year's Retailer Summit in Baltimore, the Marvel rep told me that retailers keep telling him, they'd rather see a DISCOUNT incentive, or a returnability incentive than a variant incentive. If they'd listen, that'd be great.

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

Variants have nothing to do with readership. Sorry, but it's a fact.

If you eliminated them tomorrow, the people who still just READ comics, would still READ comics. Anyone who left because of it, really wasn't a comic book fan in the first place.

 

You don't buy a variant to READ it.

Stores don't order it for people to READ it.

It exists to get retailers to buy more copies.

Retailers use it to sell to customers interested in the COVER.

 

At this year's Retailer Summit in Baltimore, the Marvel rep told me that retailers keep telling him, they'd rather see a DISCOUNT incentive, or a returnability incentive than a variant incentive. If they'd listen, that'd be great.

If variants were eliminated, you'd probably also see a lot of titles disappear, as the drop in numbers from collectors who buy everything would make some stuff economically infeasible.

[Prince Namor]

Variants have nothing to do with readership. Sorry, but it's a fact.

If you eliminated them tomorrow, the people who still just READ comics, would still READ comics. Anyone who left because of it, really wasn't a comic book fan in the first place.

 

You don't buy a variant to READ it.

Stores don't order it for people to READ it.

It exists to get retailers to buy more copies.

Retailers use it to sell to customers interested in the COVER.

 

At this year's Retailer Summit in Baltimore, the Marvel rep told me that retailers keep telling him, they'd rather see a DISCOUNT incentive, or a returnability incentive than a variant incentive. If they'd listen, that'd be great.

 

If variants were eliminated, you'd probably also see a lot of titles disappear, as the drop in numbers from collectors who buy everything would make some stuff economically infeasible.

 

Image dropped the amount of variants this year drastically and at the end of the year they finished:

Retail Market Share 2014: 9.23%

Retail Market Share 2015: 9.93%

 

Unit Market Share 2014: 10.41%

Unit Market Share 2015: 10.70%

 

2014 Comics Shipped: 717

2015 Comics Shipped: 717

 

They cut down on variants, shipped the same amount of titles, and slightly INCREASED their numbers, despite DECREASING the use of variants, and eliminating outside variant programs.

 

The only thing I've ever seen that led to the elimination of a comic book, that a publisher wanted to print, was a decrease in readership.

Variants don't save a a title, they only temporarily prop the numbers up.

 

 

 

[LarrysComics]

Variants have nothing to do with readership. Sorry, but it's a fact.

If you eliminated them tomorrow, the people who still just READ comics, would still READ comics. Anyone who left because of it, really wasn't a comic book fan in the first place.

 

You don't buy a variant to READ it.

Stores don't order it for people to READ it.

It exists to get retailers to buy more copies.

Retailers use it to sell to customers interested in the COVER.

 

At this year's Retailer Summit in Baltimore, the Marvel rep told me that retailers keep telling him, they'd rather see a DISCOUNT incentive, or a returnability incentive than a variant incentive. If they'd listen, that'd be great.

 

If variants were eliminated, you'd probably also see a lot of titles disappear, as the drop in numbers from collectors who buy everything would make some stuff economically infeasible.

 

Image dropped the amount of variants this year drastically and at the end of the year they finished:

Retail Market Share 2014: 9.23%

Retail Market Share 2015: 9.93%

 

Unit Market Share 2014: 10.41%

Unit Market Share 2015: 10.70%

 

2014 Comics Shipped: 717

2015 Comics Shipped: 717

 

They cut down on variants, shipped the same amount of titles, and slightly INCREASED their numbers, despite DECREASING the use of variants, and eliminating outside variant programs.

 

The only thing I've ever seen that led to the elimination of a comic book, that a publisher wanted to print, was a decrease in readership.

Variants don't save a a title, they only temporarily prop the numbers up.

 

 

 

Good point Chuck, but flawed.

Image cut out variants mid way through 2015...

 

Let's revisit those numbers in June shall we?

06-15 through 06-16

 

Their decision to not produce variants hasn't affected their readership at all, but collectors haven't been buying as much.

 

 

[Prince Namor]

Variants have nothing to do with readership. Sorry, but it's a fact.

If you eliminated them tomorrow, the people who still just READ comics, would still READ comics. Anyone who left because of it, really wasn't a comic book fan in the first place.

 

You don't buy a variant to READ it.

Stores don't order it for people to READ it.

It exists to get retailers to buy more copies.

Retailers use it to sell to customers interested in the COVER.

 

At this year's Retailer Summit in Baltimore, the Marvel rep told me that retailers keep telling him, they'd rather see a DISCOUNT incentive, or a returnability incentive than a variant incentive. If they'd listen, that'd be great.

 

If variants were eliminated, you'd probably also see a lot of titles disappear, as the drop in numbers from collectors who buy everything would make some stuff economically infeasible.

 

Image dropped the amount of variants this year drastically and at the end of the year they finished:

Retail Market Share 2014: 9.23%

Retail Market Share 2015: 9.93%

 

Unit Market Share 2014: 10.41%

Unit Market Share 2015: 10.70%

 

2014 Comics Shipped: 717

2015 Comics Shipped: 717

 

They cut down on variants, shipped the same amount of titles, and slightly INCREASED their numbers, despite DECREASING the use of variants, and eliminating outside variant programs.

 

The only thing I've ever seen that led to the elimination of a comic book, that a publisher wanted to print, was a decrease in readership.

Variants don't save a a title, they only temporarily prop the numbers up.

 

 

 

Good point Chuck, but flawed.

Image cut out variants mid way through 2015...

 

Let's revisit those numbers in June shall we?

06-15 through 06-16

 

Their decision to not produce variants hasn't affected their readership at all, but collectors haven't been buying as much.

 

 

It'll be interesting to see, but I think with even a 50/50 year, to basically have those numbers still is impressive. And perhaps by eliminating variants they've been able to focus on their strength, which is to put out quality comic books. I know Image sales increased for me over 2015.

 

I believe if they put out good comics, the market will respond.

Unlike the 80's, and especially into the 90's, when Marvel and DC were able to glut the market and eventually kill the rise of many independents, technology gives a voice and a face to anyone who can master it and get the information and exposure of their comic out there. People are hungry for GOOD comics. Good comics to READ.

 

Because of the glitz and over exposure of poor material from the big two that was touted as 'collectibles', the market almost collapsed in the 90's.

The key to the health of comic books is to put out quality material to grow readership. We're on the wave of yet another creative zeitgeist in comics, and I don't want to see greed destroy it again.

Collectible material will come along through a natural process.

 

 

[BarryAllen]

Variants have nothing to do with readership. Sorry, but it's a fact.

If you eliminated them tomorrow, the people who still just READ comics, would still READ comics. Anyone who left because of it, really wasn't a comic book fan in the first place.

 

You don't buy a variant to READ it.

Stores don't order it for people to READ it.

It exists to get retailers to buy more copies.

Retailers use it to sell to customers interested in the COVER.

 

At this year's Retailer Summit in Baltimore, the Marvel rep told me that retailers keep telling him, they'd rather see a DISCOUNT incentive, or a returnability incentive than a variant incentive. If they'd listen, that'd be great.

 

If variants were eliminated, you'd probably also see a lot of titles disappear, as the drop in numbers from collectors who buy everything would make some stuff economically infeasible.

 

Image dropped the amount of variants this year drastically and at the end of the year they finished:

Retail Market Share 2014: 9.23%

Retail Market Share 2015: 9.93%

 

Unit Market Share 2014: 10.41%

Unit Market Share 2015: 10.70%

 

2014 Comics Shipped: 717

2015 Comics Shipped: 717

 

They cut down on variants, shipped the same amount of titles, and slightly INCREASED their numbers, despite DECREASING the use of variants, and eliminating outside variant programs.

 

The only thing I've ever seen that led to the elimination of a comic book, that a publisher wanted to print, was a decrease in readership.

Variants don't save a a title, they only temporarily prop the numbers up.

 

 

 

Good point Chuck, but flawed.

Image cut out variants mid way through 2015...

 

Let's revisit those numbers in June shall we?

06-15 through 06-16

 

Their decision to not produce variants hasn't affected their readership at all, but collectors haven't been buying as much.

 

 

It'll be interesting to see, but I think with even a 50/50 year, to basically have those numbers still is impressive. And perhaps by eliminating variants they've been able to focus on their strength, which is to put out quality comic books. I know Image sales increased for me over 2015.

 

I believe if they put out good comics, the market will respond.

Unlike the 80's, and especially into the 90's, when Marvel and DC were able to glut the market and eventually kill the rise of many independents, technology gives a voice and a face to anyone who can master it and get the information and exposure of their comic out there. People are hungry for GOOD comics. Good comics to READ.

 

Because of the glitz and over exposure of poor material from the big two that was touted as 'collectibles', the market almost collapsed in the 90's.

The key to the health of comic books is to put out quality material to grow readership. We're on the wave of yet another creative zeitgeist in comics, and I don't want to see greed destroy it again.

Collectible material will come along through a natural process.

 

 

You cherry-picked data and speculated as to why "everyone" buys a comic. Truth is you have no idea why some buys a variant unless they directly tell you personally. With the exception of the very small print run variants (where dealers order specifically to flip for speculation), most of them never see a slab. You can't draw a linear conclusion that a change in variants directly changes sales numbers with creating a baseline to measure against (and no total business year over year doesn't count). You would need to isolate the variable and measure against a control to draw conclusions, which you can't. Everything else is just your opinion. I have seen kids and adults choose a variant cover at a store (versus another) and buy the book to read.

 

Comic companies produce product for sales. Variants are a tool that they use to boost sales (sometimes works, sometimes doesn't). Some stories are more compelling than others and readership grows year over year. However to say that variants (as a tool to drive increased sales) doesn't EVER increase readership is ridiculous.

 

 

You are talking in absolutes and it is downright silly.

 

We should call you "Darth Gower."

 

:shrug:

[Jeffro.]

Yet another reboot..?

 

Apparently that is all DC does now is reboot things. What are they going to call this one? The new new 52 has no ring to it.

 

How about the "We can't figure out any other way to get new readers so we continue to all over our own history, 52"

[Prince Namor]

Variants have nothing to do with readership. Sorry, but it's a fact.

If you eliminated them tomorrow, the people who still just READ comics, would still READ comics. Anyone who left because of it, really wasn't a comic book fan in the first place.

 

You don't buy a variant to READ it.

Stores don't order it for people to READ it.

It exists to get retailers to buy more copies.

Retailers use it to sell to customers interested in the COVER.

 

At this year's Retailer Summit in Baltimore, the Marvel rep told me that retailers keep telling him, they'd rather see a DISCOUNT incentive, or a returnability incentive than a variant incentive. If they'd listen, that'd be great.

 

If variants were eliminated, you'd probably also see a lot of titles disappear, as the drop in numbers from collectors who buy everything would make some stuff economically infeasible.

 

Image dropped the amount of variants this year drastically and at the end of the year they finished:

Retail Market Share 2014: 9.23%

Retail Market Share 2015: 9.93%

 

Unit Market Share 2014: 10.41%

Unit Market Share 2015: 10.70%

 

2014 Comics Shipped: 717

2015 Comics Shipped: 717

 

They cut down on variants, shipped the same amount of titles, and slightly INCREASED their numbers, despite DECREASING the use of variants, and eliminating outside variant programs.

 

The only thing I've ever seen that led to the elimination of a comic book, that a publisher wanted to print, was a decrease in readership.

Variants don't save a a title, they only temporarily prop the numbers up.

 

 

 

Good point Chuck, but flawed.

Image cut out variants mid way through 2015...

 

Let's revisit those numbers in June shall we?

06-15 through 06-16

 

Their decision to not produce variants hasn't affected their readership at all, but collectors haven't been buying as much.

 

 

It'll be interesting to see, but I think with even a 50/50 year, to basically have those numbers still is impressive. And perhaps by eliminating variants they've been able to focus on their strength, which is to put out quality comic books. I know Image sales increased for me over 2015.

 

I believe if they put out good comics, the market will respond.

Unlike the 80's, and especially into the 90's, when Marvel and DC were able to glut the market and eventually kill the rise of many independents, technology gives a voice and a face to anyone who can master it and get the information and exposure of their comic out there. People are hungry for GOOD comics. Good comics to READ.

 

Because of the glitz and over exposure of poor material from the big two that was touted as 'collectibles', the market almost collapsed in the 90's.

The key to the health of comic books is to put out quality material to grow readership. We're on the wave of yet another creative zeitgeist in comics, and I don't want to see greed destroy it again.

Collectible material will come along through a natural process.

 

 

You cherry-picked data

 

That's not cherry picked data. It's the hard data released by Diamond.

In 2014, Image had the variant programs and outside variant programs, and those are the sales numbers for the year.

Half way through 2015 they abandoned those programs, so half the year was without any of the variant incentives.

To a publisher, what matters is the bottom line... and according to that list, we didn't see a drop off, but a slight increase, even HALF the year was without the variants.

As a CEO, I'd be happy with that.

 

and speculated as to why "everyone" buys a comic. Truth is you have no idea why some buys a variant unless they directly tell you personally.

 

They do. I'm a retailer. Here in the middle of America, where they haven't had a comic shop in 7 years, and not much of one for 20 years prior to that, they look at me like a 3 legged dog, when I try to explain to them that a variant is the SAME book only with a different cover... they think it's some kind of trick. Which.. when you think about it, it kind of is.

 

With the exception of the very small print run variants (where dealers order specifically to flip for speculation), most of them never see a slab. You can't draw a linear conclusion that a change in variants directly changes sales numbers with creating a baseline to measure against (and no total business year over year doesn't count).

 

Why doesn't total business year over year count?

If I say variants don't necessarily make a difference and show it, why would that not count?

In fact, realistically, that;s the ONLY numbers that would count.

I guarantee it counts in financial meetings. We spent less and were slightly up. That's a win.

 

You would need to isolate the variable and measure against a control to draw conclusions, which you can't. Everything else is just your opinion. I have seen kids and adults choose a variant cover at a store (versus another) and buy the book to read.

 

Thanks for proving my point. Because there was a choice, they made one. Take away the variant and they still buy the book to read. Marvel is simply making an additional choice that isn't necessary, in order to get the RETAILER to buy more copies. RETAILERS buy more copies, not CUSTOMERS.

CUSTOMERS don't buy a comic to read because of a variant... they may CHOOSE a variant over a regular cover, but the READER, is going to buy the comic because he wants to read it.

 

Comic companies produce product for sales. Variants are a tool that they use to boost sales (sometimes works, sometimes doesn't).

 

Yes, sales for the PUBLISHER.

The purpose of the variant is to get the RETAILER to buy more copies, NOT the customer.

Some customers still fall into that buying pattern, but eliminate it, and you don't eliminate a customer, you simply give him one less unnecessary book to feed his completionist affliction.

The publishers just want you to carry more copies of their unreturnable product, so that they make more money and no one ever misses an issue. If you have a bunch of you have to mark down to a $1, that's of no concern to them.

 

Some stories are more compelling than others and readership grows year over year. However to say that variants (as a tool to drive increased sales) doesn't EVER increase readership is ridiculous.

 

You just made my point again. WITHOUT the variant, you can increase sales by presenting stories that are more compelling than others. The necessity of a variant is inconsequential to that process.

 

Walking Dead before it ever had a TV Show or a variant cover, wrote compelling stories and built an audience.

 

You are talking in absolutes and it is downright silly.

 

I only speak in absolutes when the truth is absolute.

 

We should call you "Darth Gower."

 

:shrug:

 

Mm .

 

If Marvel ceased to print variants tomorrow, they would still sell a lot of comics. It would have little to no effect on CUSTOMER sales.

 

Marvel might sell less comics to the RETAILER, but in general, customer sales wouldn't all that much feel the effect.

 

Think about it: Next time you go into a store and it's got $1 modern blow out sale, how much of that is from books that were extra copies bought just to get a variant, or even sometimes the variants themselves? That's ALL I see.

 

It's additional RETAILER purchases that aren't necessary. The Diamond numbers might go down, but the actual sales to customers, especially readers would see little to no effect. If not for completionists and those who still cling to the idea of bragging about owning a super valuable modern variant, the need for the customer to collect these things is already diminished tremendously from even 5 years ago.

 

The modern variant was originally created as a thank you to the retailer, but in line with one of the darker times of this hobby, it's use as a tool to get people to buy more copies of the same book is no accident. Comics can grow without it.