DC Comics Rebirth

[Prince Namor]

Perhaps readership IS growing now....

 

But not from variants.... How can we know?

 

You are right, I cannot prove that variants drive readership. However, you have not proven that they do not. I am sure you will claim otherwise because it is clear through your posts that your opinion is industry fact (you have that in common with a couple others on the boards) versus what it actually is: a population sample of "1." Not useless, but not enough to substantiate your arguments.

 

:shrug:

 

Wrong.

How many ways can I explain it.

 

1) Incentive Variants make up 0% of tpb and digital sales, yet they're growing 1000% faster than regular comics where variants are used to constantly try and get retailers to buy more copies. The purpose for buying a gn/tpb or digital copy is to READ it, It is attracting more READERS, and doing so WITHOUT the use of incentive variants.

 

2) The years in which incentive variants exist as an every month process, we sell less comics than any other decade that has NO incentive variants.

 

3) Marvel and DC continually try and reboot and restart and renumber their universes, more and more often, using incentive variants to coerce retailers into buying more and more product that ends up in $1 boxes. Not conducive to readership. Period.

 

Deny all you want, it's all there.

 

Look, you refuse to address what I have logically laid out as why your arguments are invalid. Then you continue to make the same unsubstantiated, invalid, logical fallacy ridden arguments peppered with your personal opinion passed off as industry facts.

 

What you say has not been true from square one, there isn't anything "there" but your ongoing nonsense. It may sound great to you (or even others), but that doesn't make it accurate.

 

Either do the appropriate analysis to incorporate necessary factors to come to a proper conclusion, or don't.

 

However just posting more the the same drivel isn't proving your point any further or helping the discussion.

And the rebuttal you are making isn't proving anything either honestly. Whether or not anyone thinks variants do or don't prove increased readership the proof is in the pudding. Last relaunches by the big 2 has large print runs of #1's only to have that number drop 50 percent by issue 2 and continued to drop. Now if readership was growing the sales numbers would be there. They are not.

 

I lost count on how many individual variants there were for this last Star Wars #1 same goes for ASM volume 3 and 4. I could go and on and but why bother. If these stories the big 2 are pumping out are so great why is readership decreasing to warrant new #1 jumping onto points? I mean are we all supposed to believe from #1 to #3 a reader would refuse to buy a book because they are lost in the story? Nonsense.

 

I had a retailer tell me recently that they have to blind order copies of Marvel books, meaning, so far in advance they do not have sales numbers for the first couple of issues. So they order heavy on the first and drastically cut for second and subsequent issues. When the sales figures are able to be calculated, they increase or decrease their orders based on actual sales figures for the books. DC does not do this and as a result does not see sell outs the way Marvel does. I am not trying to interject myself in the argument of whether variants help or hurt readership (I don't buy many variants but the ones I do I don't read, I get a reader copy of the book for that), but just wanted to throw that out there in reference to the huge drop off for Marvel of issue 1 to issue 2. Any retailer want to correct me on this is fine, but this is what I was told.

 

All publisher's are basically the same in this and usually have quite a drop off after the first issue, though because of the incentive madness, Marvel's drop off is greater, because the initial orders are over inflated (because of incentive variants). Though i suspect Dynamite has had some major drop off's on #2's, because they'll do some multiple variants as well.

 

Right now we can see Sales numbers for books shipped in December (but ordered in October).

As an example, I know how Batman #47 did, Batman #48 is on my shelves, and I just placed my January order for books released in March, that included Batman #50.

This may sound like blind ordering, but really, store's should order based upon, what they have for subscription sales + what they can sell off the shelves + what they do or don't need extra of for a short window of time. How #47 did in the top 300 isn't all that important to my over all ordering, yet at the same time, being aware of what a break out hit MMPR #0 was, is critical to know.

 

The only real criticism of the Direct Market I have in general is unreturnability.

 

Cool Chuck, thanks for the response. I see that you must be a retailer. What I was told was for Marvel it could be as many as 6 or 7 issues in the future before you see sales data. Any truth, partial truth to that statement?

 

Sometimes Marvel will release a book every two weeks, meaning will have back to back issues to place an order for one month, which... numbers can get out of sight pretty quick, but DC has Batman and Robin Eternal, which is weekly, and we have to order 4 new issues every month for two months ahead of time!

[Prince Namor]

Darth Vader #1 LOTS of Incentive variants 264, 399 (Wow! Are there that many readers? They love us!)

Darth Vader #2 Two 1:25’s available 100, 010 (Hey! Where’d all those readers go?)

Darth Vader #3 One 1:25 85, 156 (Maybe introducing a new character in the SW Universe here will pick up sales next issue!)

Darth Vader #4 One 1:25 123, 394 (Yep. Brought us a bunch of new readers right? Right?)

Darth Vader #5 One 1:25 113, 025 (Hey, where’d 10,000 of them go. Oh well, we don’t need incentives anymore… this books is still cookin’)

Darth Vader #6 No Incentive Variants! 107, 739 (Hmm… dropped even more… thank god we have a SDCC exclusive for next issue)

Darth Vader #7 SDCC Variant 114, 349 (Dang, we only jumped 7000…)

Darth Vader #8 No Incentive Variant 98, 994 (Eeek…. how many readers do we have… one more incentive variant for ‘correlation’)

Darth Vader #9 One 1:25 100, 235 (Sales uptick… THIS’ll gain us some readers right?)

Darth Vader #10 No Incentive Variant 94, 372 (Ouch….)

Darth Vader #11 No Incentive Variant 92, 866 (I thought those variants would build readership…WTF…..)

Darth Vader #12 No Incentive Variant 90, 077 (I’m gonna faint… we need a CROSSOVER event!)

Darth Vader #13 All You Want Incentive 113, 448 (Vader Down! Yeah! Building sales! This’ll start an upward trend… right?)

Darth Vader #14 All You Want Incentive 97, 457 (Dang… let’s start thinking about rebooting the whole thing…..)

 

 

Not a single comment on my numbers showing how the Incentive Variants HAVEN'T grown readership of Darth Vader?

[natevegas]

Darth Vader #1 LOTS of Incentive variants 264, 399 (Wow! Are there that many readers? They love us!)

Darth Vader #2 Two 1:25’s available 100, 010 (Hey! Where’d all those readers go?)

Darth Vader #3 One 1:25 85, 156 (Maybe introducing a new character in the SW Universe here will pick up sales next issue!)

Darth Vader #4 One 1:25 123, 394 (Yep. Brought us a bunch of new readers right? Right?)

Darth Vader #5 One 1:25 113, 025 (Hey, where’d 10,000 of them go. Oh well, we don’t need incentives anymore… this books is still cookin’)

Darth Vader #6 No Incentive Variants! 107, 739 (Hmm… dropped even more… thank god we have a SDCC exclusive for next issue)

Darth Vader #7 SDCC Variant 114, 349 (Dang, we only jumped 7000…)

Darth Vader #8 No Incentive Variant 98, 994 (Eeek…. how many readers do we have… one more incentive variant for ‘correlation’)

Darth Vader #9 One 1:25 100, 235 (Sales uptick… THIS’ll gain us some readers right?)

Darth Vader #10 No Incentive Variant 94, 372 (Ouch….)

Darth Vader #11 No Incentive Variant 92, 866 (I thought those variants would build readership…WTF…..)

Darth Vader #12 No Incentive Variant 90, 077 (I’m gonna faint… we need a CROSSOVER event!)

Darth Vader #13 All You Want Incentive 113, 448 (Vader Down! Yeah! Building sales! This’ll start an upward trend… right?)

Darth Vader #14 All You Want Incentive 97, 457 (Dang… let’s start thinking about rebooting the whole thing…..)

 

 

Not a single comment on my numbers showing how the Incentive Variants HAVEN'T grown readership of Darth Vader?

The truth hurts I guess.

[FutureFlash]

Darth Vader #1 LOTS of Incentive variants 264, 399 (Wow! Are there that many readers? They love us!)

Darth Vader #2 Two 1:25’s available 100, 010 (Hey! Where’d all those readers go?)

Darth Vader #3 One 1:25 85, 156 (Maybe introducing a new character in the SW Universe here will pick up sales next issue!)

Darth Vader #4 One 1:25 123, 394 (Yep. Brought us a bunch of new readers right? Right?)

Darth Vader #5 One 1:25 113, 025 (Hey, where’d 10,000 of them go. Oh well, we don’t need incentives anymore… this books is still cookin’)

Darth Vader #6 No Incentive Variants! 107, 739 (Hmm… dropped even more… thank god we have a SDCC exclusive for next issue)

Darth Vader #7 SDCC Variant 114, 349 (Dang, we only jumped 7000…)

Darth Vader #8 No Incentive Variant 98, 994 (Eeek…. how many readers do we have… one more incentive variant for ‘correlation’)

Darth Vader #9 One 1:25 100, 235 (Sales uptick… THIS’ll gain us some readers right?)

Darth Vader #10 No Incentive Variant 94, 372 (Ouch….)

Darth Vader #11 No Incentive Variant 92, 866 (I thought those variants would build readership…WTF…..)

Darth Vader #12 No Incentive Variant 90, 077 (I’m gonna faint… we need a CROSSOVER event!)

Darth Vader #13 All You Want Incentive 113, 448 (Vader Down! Yeah! Building sales! This’ll start an upward trend… right?)

Darth Vader #14 All You Want Incentive 97, 457 (Dang… let’s start thinking about rebooting the whole thing…..)

 

 

Not a single comment on my numbers showing how the Incentive Variants HAVEN'T grown readership of Darth Vader?

 

I noticed, good post! Just shows that a quality series can maintain high volume without variants to prop up the numbers, but they do certainly help spike the sales higher.

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

Example: ASM #666, which had 135k or so copies ordered, according to Diamond.

 

But those numbers include 500 copies of the store variants x 140 or so stores, which equals an additional 70,000 copies of "ASM #666", which Marvel and Diamond can they say "look how many copies we sold!"

 

The reality is, they didn't "sell" 135k copies....they sold about 65-70k copies, and the rest were part of an advertising campaign for stores.

 

By the way...there have been people arguing on this board that the reason for the 135k copies ordered...about 70,000 or so more than surrounding issues...was because it was "the prologue of a very popular story, "Spider-Island.""

 

Take away the incentive, and you find out that's not the case at all. You find that it was an average ASM, with average sales, nothing special about it in any way.

 

And yet, there were people arguing vociferously that there was a tremendous spike in sales because it was the first part of that story...not even knowing that that number was completely artificial, based on a one-time event, despite such information being readily available with even cursory searches.

 

That information should cause those people to say "huh. I guess I was wrong. Thanks for the information!"...but it doesn't, because there's no respect for research, analysis, understanding, or experience.

 

That's unfortunate.

 

What and where (did) people vociferously say this about the 666 prelude issue to the eventual, ensuing Spider Island storyline (with "Part 1" actually being 667 anyway)?

 

-J.

 

Your sigline is too big, which causes me to have to scroll left to right to read everyone else's post, which is rather time consuming.

[Prince Namor]

Darth Vader #1 LOTS of Incentive variants 264, 399 (Wow! Are there that many readers? They love us!)

Darth Vader #2 Two 1:25’s available 100, 010 (Hey! Where’d all those readers go?)

Darth Vader #3 One 1:25 85, 156 (Maybe introducing a new character in the SW Universe here will pick up sales next issue!)

Darth Vader #4 One 1:25 123, 394 (Yep. Brought us a bunch of new readers right? Right?)

Darth Vader #5 One 1:25 113, 025 (Hey, where’d 10,000 of them go. Oh well, we don’t need incentives anymore… this books is still cookin’)

Darth Vader #6 No Incentive Variants! 107, 739 (Hmm… dropped even more… thank god we have a SDCC exclusive for next issue)

Darth Vader #7 SDCC Variant 114, 349 (Dang, we only jumped 7000…)

Darth Vader #8 No Incentive Variant 98, 994 (Eeek…. how many readers do we have… one more incentive variant for ‘correlation’)

Darth Vader #9 One 1:25 100, 235 (Sales uptick… THIS’ll gain us some readers right?)

Darth Vader #10 No Incentive Variant 94, 372 (Ouch….)

Darth Vader #11 No Incentive Variant 92, 866 (I thought those variants would build readership…WTF…..)

Darth Vader #12 No Incentive Variant 90, 077 (I’m gonna faint… we need a CROSSOVER event!)

Darth Vader #13 All You Want Incentive 113, 448 (Vader Down! Yeah! Building sales! This’ll start an upward trend… right?)

Darth Vader #14 All You Want Incentive 97, 457 (Dang… let’s start thinking about rebooting the whole thing…..)

 

 

Not a single comment on my numbers showing how the Incentive Variants HAVEN'T grown readership of Darth Vader?

 

I noticed, good post! Just shows that a quality series can maintain high volume without variants to prop up the numbers, but they do certainly help spike the sales higher.

 

Exactly.

[Lazyboy]

 

Example: ASM #666, which had 135k or so copies ordered, according to Diamond.

 

But those numbers include 500 copies of the store variants x 140 or so stores, which equals an additional 70,000 copies of "ASM #666", which Marvel and Diamond can they say "look how many copies we sold!"

 

The reality is, they didn't "sell" 135k copies....they sold about 65-70k copies, and the rest were part of an advertising campaign for stores.

 

By the way...there have been people arguing on this board that the reason for the 135k copies ordered...about 70,000 or so more than surrounding issues...was because it was "the prologue of a very popular story, "Spider-Island.""

 

Take away the incentive, and you find out that's not the case at all. You find that it was an average ASM, with average sales, nothing special about it in any way.

 

And yet, there were people arguing vociferously that there was a tremendous spike in sales because it was the first part of that story...not even knowing that that number was completely artificial, based on a one-time event, despite such information being readily available with even cursory searches.

 

That information should cause those people to say "huh. I guess I was wrong. Thanks for the information!"...but it doesn't, because there's no respect for research, analysis, understanding, or experience.

 

That's unfortunate.

 

What and where (did) people vociferously say this about the 666 prelude issue to the eventual, ensuing Spider Island storyline (with "Part 1" actually being 667 anyway)?

 

-J.

 

Your sigline is too big, which causes me to have to scroll left to right to read everyone else's post, which is rather time consuming.

 

Seriously? What kind of screen/display settings are you using?

[Lazyboy]

Look, you refuse to address what I have logically laid out as why your arguments are invalid. Then you continue to make the same unsubstantiated, invalid, logical fallacy ridden arguments peppered with your personal opinion passed off as industry facts.

 

What you say has not been true from square one, there isn't anything "there" but your ongoing nonsense. It may sound great to you (or even others), but that doesn't make it accurate.

 

Either do the appropriate analysis to incorporate necessary factors to come to a proper conclusion, or don't.

 

However just posting more the the same drivel isn't proving your point any further or helping the discussion.

OK, go ahead and take the lead.

 

Tell us how, exactly, you see variants improving readership.

 

Yeah, even just one plausible way variants have a positive effect on readership.

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

Example: ASM #666, which had 135k or so copies ordered, according to Diamond.

 

But those numbers include 500 copies of the store variants x 140 or so stores, which equals an additional 70,000 copies of "ASM #666", which Marvel and Diamond can they say "look how many copies we sold!"

 

The reality is, they didn't "sell" 135k copies....they sold about 65-70k copies, and the rest were part of an advertising campaign for stores.

 

By the way...there have been people arguing on this board that the reason for the 135k copies ordered...about 70,000 or so more than surrounding issues...was because it was "the prologue of a very popular story, "Spider-Island.""

 

Take away the incentive, and you find out that's not the case at all. You find that it was an average ASM, with average sales, nothing special about it in any way.

 

And yet, there were people arguing vociferously that there was a tremendous spike in sales because it was the first part of that story...not even knowing that that number was completely artificial, based on a one-time event, despite such information being readily available with even cursory searches.

 

That information should cause those people to say "huh. I guess I was wrong. Thanks for the information!"...but it doesn't, because there's no respect for research, analysis, understanding, or experience.

 

That's unfortunate.

 

What and where (did) people vociferously say this about the 666 prelude issue to the eventual, ensuing Spider Island storyline (with "Part 1" actually being 667 anyway)?

 

-J.

 

Your sigline is too big, which causes me to have to scroll left to right to read everyone else's post, which is rather time consuming.

 

Seriously? What kind of screen/display settings are you using?

 

Dell M782p

 

1024x768

 

Plus, I have the IE at "125%" because I'm losing my vision.

[darkstar]

IE? Please tell me that was a joke.

[RockMyAmadeus]

IE? Please tell me that was a joke.

 

Are you still "messing with me"...?

 

[stanley1883]

I'm getting really tired of the reboots and re-launches.

[Kyle R.]

I'm getting really tired of the reboots and re-launches.

 

Aren't we all. It shows the lack of ideas.

[UltraMaximus]

So who is doing the next Harley Quinn #1 Variant?

[drotto]

I'm getting really tired of the reboots and re-launches.

 

Actually the last reboot did lead to some good stories. Snyder's run on Batman is widely recognized as one of the best in years. Darkseed War was a very good story. I personally like what they have been doing with Black Canary, Batgirl, and yes HQ. So to say that reboots always lead to unimaginative stories, and laziness is untrue.

 

What I fail to see though, is once some of these new ideas lose a little steam, the go to is hit the rest button, rather than retooling and moving forward. The vast majority of the stories being told could have been done in any of the previous continuities. Why the publishers feel they need a fresh starting point escapes me, tell the same stories, but leave my continuity intact.

 

I know it is all about sales, but sustained sales should eclipse single issue sales, and I think companies have lost sight of that. I am sure if you examine books that had very long runs like X-Men, Action Comics, Detective, Batman, etc, there were always fluctuations in sales numbers. Good new stories and interesting characters would bring in new readers or readers back, not a shiny number 1.

[Prince Namor]

I'm getting really tired of the reboots and re-launches.

 

Actually the last reboot did lead to some good stories. Snyder's run on Batman is widely recognized as one of the best in years. Darkseed War was a very good story. I personally like what they have been doing with Black Canary, Batgirl, and yes HQ. So to say that reboots always lead to unimaginative stories, and laziness is untrue.

 

Batman has been the big winner. Swamp Thing was a winner, but they canceled it, and are just now starting a new series over.

Darkseid War didn't start until 3 1/2 years into New 52.

Black Canary came after Convergence (and I sort of like it too, it's very different from the DC norm) and Batgirl's new look/story started 3 years into the New 52. Harley Quinn is fun. They've given it to Amanda and Jimmy and let them have a blast doing it.

DC had 52 original reboot titles.... that's not a whole lot to show for it.

 

What I fail to see though, is once some of these new ideas lose a little steam, the go to is hit the rest button, rather than retooling and moving forward. The vast majority of the stories being told could have been done in any of the previous continuities. Why the publishers feel they need a fresh starting point escapes me, tell the same stories, but leave my continuity intact.

 

It's because they're not really concerned about continuity. (How do you know that Chuck?)

Continued reboot's = Screwed up Continuity. Always has, always will.

Now a days, you don't even have to have a change in editorial power to reboot multiple times. All you have to do is create a publishing team consisting of a few people with inconsistent publishing pasts' (Bob Harras, Jim Lee) , and you're sure to get some obvious mixed results.

 

I know it is all about sales, but sustained sales should eclipse single issue sales, and I think companies have lost sight of that. I am sure if you examine books that had very long runs like X-Men, Action Comics, Detective, Batman, etc, there were always fluctuations in sales numbers. Good new stories and interesting characters would bring in new readers or readers back, not a shiny number 1.

 

Comic Book Publisher's are like most corporations and they want to show an increase in profits every year, and that means using the means they;re familiar with to strangle more money out of what loyalty their customers have left to the brand.

Unfortunately, a growing number of American Corporations have abandoned the idea of long term goals and have put all of their eggs into the basket of immediate short term results.

Many feel it's a dangerous way to do business, that leads to an inevitable crash.

[drotto]

^^

 

I am fully aware that companies are mainly concerned with year to year % increases. I work for a company that is constantly comparing last years numbers to this years down to the day. Needless to say, they get fixated on the day to day numbers, which may not always be an apples to apples comparison. For example, comparing a Fridays sales figures to a Saturdays, are logically not going to be the same, but when the only thing they consider is that last January 20th you netted this and this January 20th you netted this, it misses the bigger picture. Where if you take a step back and look at a week or month it provides a much different picture.

 

I also know from reading comics for 20 plus years, that continuity is a thing of the past, and I was never a reader that would hold a writer accountable for 50 plus years of minutia. If they occasionally botched something up, or contradicted something from when the guy was 2, I never really cared. I also think that is it possible to "reinvent" and evolve a character within continuity. So I blame the laziness, and reboots on editorial and accounting not on the writers who are given edicts and then must work with what they have. Good creative people are capable of creating good work regardless of the setting.

 

So call me idealistic, but there is a better model to follow out there. Because any comic reader, store owner, fan knows that continued reboots have not saved comics. The only thing that can save comics if a great product, number ones be damned.

[romanheart]

I think the pressure of Marvel's strategy got to some of the directors at DC. They look at market share and freak, not realizing that comic book stores are not going all in for those Marvel reboots anymore as they are getting stuck with a lot of comics they can't move. Personally, I think the reboot strategy is a long term debacle waiting to happen. I think if this continues it will be the end of print.

 

I thought New 52 was a success personally. Some titles were going to die but this whole series got me interested in modern comics again. If they renumber, I think I will only be down to 2 titles for all of Marvel/DC (Batman, and maybe JL). Personally, if they hadn't began again I would have liked to see Batman/Detective/Action/Superman roll over past the 1000 issue mark. It would have been glorious to see.

 

I like the odd variant for its' cover but I can't see this as a huge money-maker anymore for the comic shop. I can't see most people caring for these because of their price tag. I not sure that discussion is related with the whole reboot phenomenon.

[drotto]

I think the pressure of Marvel's strategy got to some of the directors at DC. They look at market share and freak, not realizing that comic book stores are not going all in for those Marvel reboots anymore as they are getting stuck with a lot of comics they can't move. Personally, I think the reboot strategy is a long term debacle waiting to happen. I think if this continues it will be the end of print.

 

I thought New 52 was a success personally. Some titles were going to die but this whole series got me interested in modern comics again. If they renumber, I think I will only be down to 2 titles for all of Marvel/DC (Batman, and maybe JL). Personally, if they hadn't began again I would have liked to see Batman/Detective/Action/Superman roll over past the 1000 issue mark. It would have been glorious to see.

 

I like the odd variant for its' cover but I can't see this as a huge money-maker anymore for the comic shop. I can't see most people caring for these because of their price tag. I not sure that discussion is related with the whole reboot phenomenon.

 

Personally, I dropped about 1/3 of the DC comics I had been reading after Convergence. Where after 52, I had picked up several new DC books. I am now at my pre52 level.That event was possibly the biggest disaster in the already dubious history of comic events. The latest Marvel "reboot" does not seem to have changed my overall count, I may be down one or two books. I am not saying the Marvel reboot has worked, but I have been enjoying the stories so far, but because the books have a simpler more direct feel to them. Somehow they feel a little more "classic" to me (odd considering it was a soft reboot).

 

With that said, almost everything that Marvel has done post Secrete War could have been done without secrete war.

 

As for the competition between the companies, that should be old news. In a market with really two big guns, and three or four noteworthy second tier companies, the public dynamic is unlikely to change. For years Marvel has been one, and DC a fairly close second, I see nothing that changes that. So with the small market, they should go against the natural corporate tendency to fight one another, and realize that they will do better working together. A healthy comic market will be good for all involved.

[Thawk]

I'm on the side of New52 having been mostly positive - that said, in any timeline, Justice League, Batman, and Superman are the titles I follow most closely. Superman has been very mediocre in that time, but the other two titles have been great. Batgirl was fantastic from the get-go (Gail Simone's storyline was very good I thought), though I haven't been one of the fans of her newer, younger look within the last year.

 

So many people drag on the New52 as if to suggest there were tons of booming titles that got cut short because of it - which I really don't think is the case. New52 offered some really fresh stuff - it had similar struggles to any comic line at any point in time (some great titles, some lame ones).

 

People just like to dislike because it's easy to be a critic and because we all want to see great things for the characters we like. If it was so easy to produce fantastic content after 75 years, this conversation wouldn't be happening.

 

Buy what's good and what you like. It's way more fun to focus on the stuff that you enjoy and find really cool than to rag on a decision made 5 years ago which you can't change.