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DC Comics Rebirth

Started by Vikingreed,

223 posts in this topic

Prince Namor

Prince Namor

Posted
Posted

The topic of this thread is about DC Comics Rebirth....

 

Why do you think the big two continues to relaunch and re-set to #1's?

 

To gain readers?

 

#1's STILL jack up sales, as trained buyers still follow the trend of buying #1's

 

For retailers, Marvel knows with #1's they can go hog wild on the incentive variants for retailers to buy...many of whom fear losing sales to competitors, so they continue to over order.

 

They're repeating this process more and more...

 

It has nothing to do with being a benefit for readers. When have you ever heard anyone say they love the idea of Marvel rebooting their favorite series over and over again?

 

Why is this so hard to see?

 

 

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BarryAllen

BarryAllen

Posted
Posted

B) to fully perform an analysis to isolate the impact of variants solely on the business you would need to take into account:

- sales trends by title heading into comparison years (were numbers trending up beforehand, etc)

- other changes that went on at that time (changes in distribution, title switching, pricing or sales, major story arcs changes that stop/start, etc)

- competitive activity (did competitors make a change in distribution, number of titles, stop or start a promotion, etc)

- change in advertising, media, merchandising or tv/movies (including competition, did they start/stop anything)

- total sales in market (was there a share change, did sales increase across the board, major customer trends up to down)

 

And you still wouldn't have an answer as to if it gained or lost READERS.

 

Because what we know FOR SURE is, people READ comics long before variants were an every month thing, and NOW, LESS people read comics now that they are an every month thing.

Because you DO know, that less people read comics now than in the 50's (7 to 10X less), the 60's (2.5 to 5X less), the 70's (3.5 to 1.5X less), the 80's (3.5 to 1.5X less), era's that had NO monthly incentive variants, than NOW, right? The last 20 years, with variants has been the lowest sales decades EVER for comics, right?

 

That the era with the most variants has sold the least units?

 

 

Sure, because there is no actual way to measure readers. Correct?

 

Where are you getting all the data points you are citing?

 

You seriously don't know?

 

I am confused by this response. I am referring to the stats you posted above that are underlined (I know where to get comic sales from). Where can you track "readership?" How do you make these claims and ranges? What proof do you have?

 

Which word didn't you understand?

 

If in Year A, there are no variants and they sell 10 copies - then most likely, those ten copies are __________ :gossip: (bought for the purposes of being read)

If in Year B, there are 1 variant, and 4 regular copies - then which year had the most readers? ____________ :gossip: (the year they sold more, with no variants, simple deduction)

 

FYI - you brought sales data into the conversation as an analog for readership, not me. I am just pointing out that your data analysis isn't accurate because you don't (and can't) take into account all the other mitigating factors that drove the results. Thus you cannot make the conclusion you did based on that data (that variants do not drive readership at all).

 

Yes you can. Only someone purposely denying it, couldn't see it,

 

Ask ANYONE who's been in the hobby from 20+ years. When did the hobby have the most pure readers? Now? Or 1950?

Now? Or 1960?

You'll get the same results.

 

But are they right? Perhaps readership IS growing now....

 

But not from variants.... How can we know?

 

:shrug:

 

For the record: I am not a fan of variants overall due to the speculation that some can cause and the potential negative impacts they will have to the secondary market if/when that bubble bursts. However I do believe the intent of the publisher is to sell more books and create more readers with them.

 

Marvel doesn't primarily sell books to readers, they sell them to distributors, who sell them to retailers.

The retailers actually sell them to customers.

Marvel's intent is to get the retailers, through the distributor, to buy more copies.

Never once have they ever had an incentive based upon reading a comic.

 

Here's another clue for you all.

The Walrus was Paul.

 

But the biggest clue of all is:

Graphic Novel and Trade Paperback sales have risen to their highest levels ever. No variants needed. Just readers!

In 1998, GN/TPB sales made up 7% of the Top total Diamond Sales items - In 2015 it now makes up 20%.

Since 1998, GN/TPB's have grown 464% compared to comics which have grown 44%.

The books that are just for readers are growing at a substantially faster rate than the comics (almost 1000% faster), without the help of variants!

No variants!

 

More proof? Even more proof?

Digital Comic Sales continue to reach new heights, nay, they are EXPLODING...no variants needed! Just readers!

And we have no idea HOW MUCH they're growing..... but here was a clue from a few years ago....

 

2011 Digital Comic Numbers

 

There's a reason we know they're continuing to grow... go ahead... ask me.... I'll tell ya...

 

So...the two biggest growing segment's of the hobby, which use no variants at all to sell themselves, but rather rely upon readers to buy the product for reading. (shrug)

 

Absolute proof. You don't need variants to grow. In fact, without the variants you may just grow faster.

 

You haven't provided any absolute proof of anything and are ignoring all rational requests to include relevant variables in an analysis to drive a conclusion.

 

This isn't going to go anywhere, you are entrenched in your own personal experience and pushing it off as a history of facts. You have nothing but speculation on what has happened to readership just like you are speculating that variants are hurting comic sales by connecting unrelated phenomena.

 

Have a nice evening.

 

It's all right there for ya, slugger.

 

A lack of understanding quantum physics, doesn't disprove the existence of atoms. Maybe ask someone here to help you with it.

 

You're right and owning a comic book store and Internet access to use Google makes you an expert in everything right?

 

(thumbs u

 

No need for condescending quips and personal attacks.

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Jaydogrules

Jaydogrules

Posted
Posted

B) to fully perform an analysis to isolate the impact of variants solely on the business you would need to take into account:

- sales trends by title heading into comparison years (were numbers trending up beforehand, etc)

- other changes that went on at that time (changes in distribution, title switching, pricing or sales, major story arcs changes that stop/start, etc)

- competitive activity (did competitors make a change in distribution, number of titles, stop or start a promotion, etc)

- change in advertising, media, merchandising or tv/movies (including competition, did they start/stop anything)

- total sales in market (was there a share change, did sales increase across the board, major customer trends up to down)

 

And you still wouldn't have an answer as to if it gained or lost READERS.

 

Because what we know FOR SURE is, people READ comics long before variants were an every month thing, and NOW, LESS people read comics now that they are an every month thing.

Because you DO know, that less people read comics now than in the 50's (7 to 10X less), the 60's (2.5 to 5X less), the 70's (3.5 to 1.5X less), the 80's (3.5 to 1.5X less), era's that had NO monthly incentive variants, than NOW, right? The last 20 years, with variants has been the lowest sales decades EVER for comics, right?

 

That the era with the most variants has sold the least units?

 

 

hm

 

This could also just as likely be a case of the tail wagging the dog though.

 

There are many who believe that variants are what is keeping the market from fracturing any further.

 

lolNo one who retails, distributes, or publishes believes that. And i've questioned many of them on the topic.

 

And I don't think we can read (no pun intended) very much into a meager few months sample of a (distant) third place indy publisher (that, by the way, still prints variants as well, *see Walking Dead #150).

 

-J.

 

None of those were incentive variants.

 

What do buyers say ?

 

About what?

 

They seem to pretty clearly be speaking with their wallets.

 

How long have you been in this hobby? 1:25's are going for cheaper than they ever have and 1:100's are going for cheaper than they ever have.

 

There's an outlier here and there, but the vast majority of variants, even if they initially have some value quickly lose it. The market for those has shrunk considerably.

 

Retailers don't "have" to order heavy on a book a to qualify for incentive variants.

 

Um.... yeah, that's what an 'incentive' variant is. it involves you ordering at a certain level.

 

However they fail to do so at their own peril.

 

What peril is that? I feel no peril.

 

Your arguments are very one sided and pretty obviously from a (seemingly) jaded retailer's perspective who doesn't like the current "system".

 

I LOVE being a retailer of comic books. Love it. Love it. Love it. It's best thing I ever did, besides make a baby.

 

I can disagree with Marvel's or DC's program, and it doesn't mean I don't like the whole system.

 

Some of us have been telling Marvel for a while, that we prefer a price incentive system, but you see....

 

Marvel knows... that if you hit the incentive amount, you have to BUY the 1:25, or even better, when you hit the incentive, and it's a buy as much as you want...

 

Less understanding retailers end up with 25 regular and 10 copies of the action figure variant and 10 of the Scottie Young and 1 of the 1:25....46 COPIES of a book they might have originally only ordered 20 copies of. That's not Marvel building readers - that's Marvel milking a sucker.

 

That's why you see so many $1 boxes full of modern stuff.... Geez, don't you remember all of the New 52 early issues in $1 boxes? Why do you think people over ordered on that stuff?

 

No one forces you to load up on a book to qualify for incentive variants though. You do that to make your customers happy (I assume), and to keep them from going to the other guy's store or looking for the books that you don't order on ebay.

 

If someone wants a 1:25 and I don't usually order that many to get it, it's $25. If I do, it's generally $10 or $15. No peril involved.

 

a 1:50 is $50, a 1:100 is $100. If you want it, I'll get it, but you might, eh probably most likely, find it cheaper on eBay in a month or two.

 

And my competition, incidentally, isn't.

 

And a variant, is a variant, is a variant, no? Or are we just splitting hairs. (shrug)

 

-J.

 

Not sure what you're splitting, but we were talking incentive variants.

Multiple covers for the same price is fine by me.

 

 

There's a difference between variants in and of themselves and the "speculation" that occurs with variants. Perhaps you mean to say that the speculation that occurs on a "hot" variant when it first comes out is "bad for the hobby"? But it would seem to me that would still be beneficial to the vigilant retailer who can charge accordingly and maximize his profits. Sure the vast majority of variants come back down to earth once they come out. Perhaps some of those end up in a retailer's bargain bin. But that just goes with the territory in the retail setting, no? And if you have an online or ebay presence as well I can't imagine it would be very difficult to liquidate product at a reasonable price to "at least" break even. As a retailer it would also seem to me that you wouldn't be very concerned with what happens to a particular variant's value weeks/months/years after the fact. Hell, you may even have some winners in your bargain bin right now that you don't even know about.

 

Anyway I'm just rambling now. I always appreciate your insight at the retail level. And speaking as one customer I can tell you that I love me some variants and would probably buy less product at the retail level if they ever stopped completely producing them.

 

-J.

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RockMyAmadeus

RockMyAmadeus

Posted
Posted

 

There's a difference between variants in and of themselves and the "speculation" that occurs with variants. Perhaps you mean to say that the speculation that occurs on a "hot" variant when it first comes out is "bad for the hobby"? But it would seem to me that would still be beneficial to the vigilant retailer who can charge accordingly and maximize his profits.

 

That's a shortsighted approach, and guaranteed to cause problems down the road.

 

So a retailer sells a "hot variant" for $100. Will that cover the cost of the additional (unsellable) copies of the regular book he/she had to order to get it?

 

Maybe.

 

And what if it doesn't sell?

 

Did that "incentive" do anything at all to increase readers?

 

No.

 

Sure the vast majority of variants come back down to earth once they come out.

 

What about the ones that never "took off" in the first place?

 

Perhaps some of those end up in a retailer's bargain bin. But that just goes with the territory in the retail setting, no?

 

It shouldn't. That's the point I believe Chuck is making. The point should be to increase readers, and variants have never done that.

 

And if you have an online or ebay presence as well I can't imagine it would be very difficult to liquidate product at a reasonable price to "at least" break even.

 

"At least" breaking even mean's you'll be out of business shortly.

 

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Prince Namor

Prince Namor

Posted
Posted

 

There's a difference between variants in and of themselves and the "speculation" that occurs with variants. Perhaps you mean to say that the speculation that occurs on a "hot" variant when it first comes out is "bad for the hobby"? But it would seem to me that would still be beneficial to the vigilant retailer who can charge accordingly and maximize his profits.

 

That's a shortsighted approach, and guaranteed to cause problems down the road.

 

So a retailer sells a "hot variant" for $100. Will that cover the cost of the additional (unsellable) copies of the regular book he/she had to order to get it?

 

Maybe.

 

And what if it doesn't sell?

 

Did that "incentive" do anything at all to increase readers?

 

No.

 

Sure the vast majority of variants come back down to earth once they come out.

 

What about the ones that never "took off" in the first place?

 

Perhaps some of those end up in a retailer's bargain bin. But that just goes with the territory in the retail setting, no?

 

It shouldn't. That's the point I believe Chuck is making. The point should be to increase readers, and variants have never done that.

 

And if you have an online or ebay presence as well I can't imagine it would be very difficult to liquidate product at a reasonable price to "at least" break even.

 

"At least" breaking even mean's you'll be out of business shortly.

 

Jimmy Freaking Christmas on a Popsicle Stick.

 

It's not enough that these guys didn't live this through the 90's, or that they don't understand what happened during the 90's or even see the similarities with the 90's, but now they're actually saying the retail model for what led to 3000+ comic shops closing down, 'just goes with the territory in the retail setting'!!!!!

 

:facepalm: These guys just have no idea, do they?

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natevegas

natevegas

Posted
Posted

 

There's a difference between variants in and of themselves and the "speculation" that occurs with variants. Perhaps you mean to say that the speculation that occurs on a "hot" variant when it first comes out is "bad for the hobby"? But it would seem to me that would still be beneficial to the vigilant retailer who can charge accordingly and maximize his profits.

 

That's a shortsighted approach, and guaranteed to cause problems down the road.

 

So a retailer sells a "hot variant" for $100. Will that cover the cost of the additional (unsellable) copies of the regular book he/she had to order to get it?

 

Maybe.

 

And what if it doesn't sell?

 

Did that "incentive" do anything at all to increase readers?

 

No.

 

Sure the vast majority of variants come back down to earth once they come out.

 

What about the ones that never "took off" in the first place?

 

Perhaps some of those end up in a retailer's bargain bin. But that just goes with the territory in the retail setting, no?

 

It shouldn't. That's the point I believe Chuck is making. The point should be to increase readers, and variants have never done that.

 

And if you have an online or ebay presence as well I can't imagine it would be very difficult to liquidate product at a reasonable price to "at least" break even.

 

"At least" breaking even mean's you'll be out of business shortly.

 

Jimmy Freaking Christmas on a Popsicle Stick.

 

It's not enough that these guys didn't live this through the 90's, or that they don't understand what happened during the 90's or even see the similarities with the 90's, but now they're actually saying the retail model for what led to 3000+ comic shops closing down, 'just goes with the territory in the retail setting'!!!!!

 

:facepalm: These guys just have no idea, do they?

Sadly they have to learn the lesson on their own. Everyone talks about that period of time with the fault only with high print runs and enormous variants yet that is happening here. Heck even Marvel has #1 and or legacy numbers at the bottom with another giant #1 on the top corner I see no difference with this and the #1 Collector's chromium foils of then. #1 wait a year or less repeat and continue the illusion those #1 sales are all new readers. 2nd issue drops 50 percent of those #1 sales numbers and they big wigs think readers have left or something. Its like they believe the public can't jump onto stories without a jump on period which they define as a #1. Collectors stopped caring then and for everyone to think that can't or won't happen again is kidding themselves. 2c

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Jaydogrules

Jaydogrules

Posted
Posted

 

There's a difference between variants in and of themselves and the "speculation" that occurs with variants. Perhaps you mean to say that the speculation that occurs on a "hot" variant when it first comes out is "bad for the hobby"? But it would seem to me that would still be beneficial to the vigilant retailer who can charge accordingly and maximize his profits.

 

That's a shortsighted approach, and guaranteed to cause problems down the road.

 

So a retailer sells a "hot variant" for $100. Will that cover the cost of the additional (unsellable) copies of the regular book he/she had to order to get it?

 

Maybe.

 

And what if it doesn't sell?

 

Did that "incentive" do anything at all to increase readers?

 

No.

 

Sure the vast majority of variants come back down to earth once they come out.

 

What about the ones that never "took off" in the first place?

 

Perhaps some of those end up in a retailer's bargain bin. But that just goes with the territory in the retail setting, no?

 

It shouldn't. That's the point I believe Chuck is making. The point should be to increase readers, and variants have never done that.

 

And if you have an online or ebay presence as well I can't imagine it would be very difficult to liquidate product at a reasonable price to "at least" break even.

 

"At least" breaking even mean's you'll be out of business shortly.

 

Jimmy Freaking Christmas on a Popsicle Stick.

 

It's not enough that these guys didn't live this through the 90's, or that they don't understand what happened during the 90's or even see the similarities with the 90's, but now they're actually saying the retail model for what led to 3000+ comic shops closing down, 'just goes with the territory in the retail setting'!!!!!

 

:facepalm: These guys just have no idea, do they?

 

This isn't "the 90's" though. We have the internet now which dramatically expands a retailer's potential customer base and (the vast, vast) majority of "variants" are not being printed in the thousands and tens of thousands and hundreds of thousands.

 

Yes they are still "manufactured rarities" but customers obviously like them and like chasing and collecting them. When customers stop buying en masse, I'm sure they will stop being produced (or drastically scaled back).

 

But it is supposed to be about the customer, right ? (shrug)

 

-J.

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RockMyAmadeus

RockMyAmadeus

Posted
Posted

 

There's a difference between variants in and of themselves and the "speculation" that occurs with variants. Perhaps you mean to say that the speculation that occurs on a "hot" variant when it first comes out is "bad for the hobby"? But it would seem to me that would still be beneficial to the vigilant retailer who can charge accordingly and maximize his profits.

 

That's a shortsighted approach, and guaranteed to cause problems down the road.

 

So a retailer sells a "hot variant" for $100. Will that cover the cost of the additional (unsellable) copies of the regular book he/she had to order to get it?

 

Maybe.

 

And what if it doesn't sell?

 

Did that "incentive" do anything at all to increase readers?

 

No.

 

Sure the vast majority of variants come back down to earth once they come out.

 

What about the ones that never "took off" in the first place?

 

Perhaps some of those end up in a retailer's bargain bin. But that just goes with the territory in the retail setting, no?

 

It shouldn't. That's the point I believe Chuck is making. The point should be to increase readers, and variants have never done that.

 

And if you have an online or ebay presence as well I can't imagine it would be very difficult to liquidate product at a reasonable price to "at least" break even.

 

"At least" breaking even mean's you'll be out of business shortly.

 

Jimmy Freaking Christmas on a Popsicle Stick.

 

It's not enough that these guys didn't live this through the 90's, or that they don't understand what happened during the 90's or even see the similarities with the 90's, but now they're actually saying the retail model for what led to 3000+ comic shops closing down, 'just goes with the territory in the retail setting'!!!!!

 

:facepalm: These guys just have no idea, do they?

 

And variants had very little to do with the crash. There were, by 1994, maybe 50-100 variants that had ever been produced in the entire history of comics up to that point (not counting price variants.)

 

Now, there are single issues with that many variants, or more.

 

It's the Franklin Mint, pumping out "rare, valuable collectibles!" by the thousands, and the whole thing is built on air...just like the millions of copies of books sold in 1993 to....people who thought they would send their kids to college with them.

 

Well...those kids have been graduating from college for a while now...

 

How's that 10 pack of Unity #1 against that bill...? Or, better yet, Superman #75...?

 

Variants are just "second verse, worse than the first."

 

And this, coming from a guy who has loved variants since the very beginning.

 

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natevegas

natevegas

Posted
Posted

 

There's a difference between variants in and of themselves and the "speculation" that occurs with variants. Perhaps you mean to say that the speculation that occurs on a "hot" variant when it first comes out is "bad for the hobby"? But it would seem to me that would still be beneficial to the vigilant retailer who can charge accordingly and maximize his profits.

 

That's a shortsighted approach, and guaranteed to cause problems down the road.

 

So a retailer sells a "hot variant" for $100. Will that cover the cost of the additional (unsellable) copies of the regular book he/she had to order to get it?

 

Maybe.

 

And what if it doesn't sell?

 

Did that "incentive" do anything at all to increase readers?

 

No.

 

Sure the vast majority of variants come back down to earth once they come out.

 

What about the ones that never "took off" in the first place?

 

Perhaps some of those end up in a retailer's bargain bin. But that just goes with the territory in the retail setting, no?

 

It shouldn't. That's the point I believe Chuck is making. The point should be to increase readers, and variants have never done that.

 

And if you have an online or ebay presence as well I can't imagine it would be very difficult to liquidate product at a reasonable price to "at least" break even.

 

"At least" breaking even mean's you'll be out of business shortly.

 

Jimmy Freaking Christmas on a Popsicle Stick.

 

It's not enough that these guys didn't live this through the 90's, or that they don't understand what happened during the 90's or even see the similarities with the 90's, but now they're actually saying the retail model for what led to 3000+ comic shops closing down, 'just goes with the territory in the retail setting'!!!!!

 

:facepalm: These guys just have no idea, do they?

 

This isn't "the 90's" though. We have the internet now which dramatically expands a retailer's potential customer base and (the vast, vast) majority of "variants" are not being printed in the thousands and tens of thousands and hundreds of thousands.

 

Yes they are still "manufactured rarities" but customers obviously like them and like chasing and collecting them. When customers stop buying en masse, I'm sure they will stop being produced (or drastically scaled back).

 

But it is supposed to be about the customer, right ? (shrug)

 

-J.

Remember back then our country had 100 million less people than now. When you factor in all the media and the population growth its hard to not see why the increase in readership is occuring. If the tv / movie / internet exposure isn't increasing monthly sales numbers past #1's then rebooting surely will?

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RockMyAmadeus

RockMyAmadeus

Posted
Posted

 

There's a difference between variants in and of themselves and the "speculation" that occurs with variants. Perhaps you mean to say that the speculation that occurs on a "hot" variant when it first comes out is "bad for the hobby"? But it would seem to me that would still be beneficial to the vigilant retailer who can charge accordingly and maximize his profits.

 

That's a shortsighted approach, and guaranteed to cause problems down the road.

 

So a retailer sells a "hot variant" for $100. Will that cover the cost of the additional (unsellable) copies of the regular book he/she had to order to get it?

 

Maybe.

 

And what if it doesn't sell?

 

Did that "incentive" do anything at all to increase readers?

 

No.

 

Sure the vast majority of variants come back down to earth once they come out.

 

What about the ones that never "took off" in the first place?

 

Perhaps some of those end up in a retailer's bargain bin. But that just goes with the territory in the retail setting, no?

 

It shouldn't. That's the point I believe Chuck is making. The point should be to increase readers, and variants have never done that.

 

And if you have an online or ebay presence as well I can't imagine it would be very difficult to liquidate product at a reasonable price to "at least" break even.

 

"At least" breaking even mean's you'll be out of business shortly.

 

Jimmy Freaking Christmas on a Popsicle Stick.

 

It's not enough that these guys didn't live this through the 90's, or that they don't understand what happened during the 90's or even see the similarities with the 90's, but now they're actually saying the retail model for what led to 3000+ comic shops closing down, 'just goes with the territory in the retail setting'!!!!!

 

:facepalm: These guys just have no idea, do they?

 

This isn't "the 90's" though. We have the internet now which dramatically expands a retailer's potential customer base and (the vast, vast) majority of "variants" are not being printed in the thousands and tens of thousands and hundreds of thousands.

 

The vast majority of variants are, indeed, being printed in the thousands. 1,000, 2,000, 3,000...still thousands. Very, very few variants are printed in the hundreds.

 

And, the vast, vast majority of variants have never been printed in the tens or hundreds of thousands. There are probably 30-50 variants, total, that were printed in numbers higher than 10,000.

 

Yes they are still "manufactured rarities" but customers obviously like them and like chasing and collecting them. When customers stop buying en masse, I'm sure they will stop being produced (or drastically scaled back).

 

But it is supposed to be about the customer, right ? (shrug)

 

-J.

 

What customers? How many? Who? Why? If there are 20 people out chasing the 5 available copies on the market, it's going to create the impression of a lot of demand.

 

So, how many "customers" are you talking about? Do you know? Does ANYONE know?

 

I just shipped off 17 copies of a "rare" variant that someone sent to me to press....a book that is currently selling for $300+ RAW, and $700-$800 as a 9.8.

 

17 copies. All in one hand.

 

17 may not sound like a lot, but if only 10 people are looking for them......

 

 

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Jaydogrules

Jaydogrules

Posted
Posted

 

There's a difference between variants in and of themselves and the "speculation" that occurs with variants. Perhaps you mean to say that the speculation that occurs on a "hot" variant when it first comes out is "bad for the hobby"? But it would seem to me that would still be beneficial to the vigilant retailer who can charge accordingly and maximize his profits.

 

That's a shortsighted approach, and guaranteed to cause problems down the road.

 

So a retailer sells a "hot variant" for $100. Will that cover the cost of the additional (unsellable) copies of the regular book he/she had to order to get it?

 

Maybe.

 

And what if it doesn't sell?

 

Did that "incentive" do anything at all to increase readers?

 

No.

 

Sure the vast majority of variants come back down to earth once they come out.

 

What about the ones that never "took off" in the first place?

 

Perhaps some of those end up in a retailer's bargain bin. But that just goes with the territory in the retail setting, no?

 

It shouldn't. That's the point I believe Chuck is making. The point should be to increase readers, and variants have never done that.

 

And if you have an online or ebay presence as well I can't imagine it would be very difficult to liquidate product at a reasonable price to "at least" break even.

 

"At least" breaking even mean's you'll be out of business shortly.

 

Jimmy Freaking Christmas on a Popsicle Stick.

 

It's not enough that these guys didn't live this through the 90's, or that they don't understand what happened during the 90's or even see the similarities with the 90's, but now they're actually saying the retail model for what led to 3000+ comic shops closing down, 'just goes with the territory in the retail setting'!!!!!

 

:facepalm: These guys just have no idea, do they?

 

This isn't "the 90's" though. We have the internet now which dramatically expands a retailer's potential customer base and (the vast, vast) majority of "variants" are not being printed in the thousands and tens of thousands and hundreds of thousands.

 

The vast majority of variants are, indeed, being printed in the thousands. 1,000, 2,000, 3,000...still thousands. Very, very few variants are printed in the hundreds.

 

And, the vast, vast majority of variants have never been printed in the tens or hundreds of thousands. There are probably 30-50 variants, total, that were printed in numbers higher than 10,000.

 

Yes they are still "manufactured rarities" but customers obviously like them and like chasing and collecting them. When customers stop buying en masse, I'm sure they will stop being produced (or drastically scaled back).

 

But it is supposed to be about the customer, right ? (shrug)

 

-J.

 

What customers? How many? Who? Why? If there are 20 people out chasing the 5 available copies on the market, it's going to create the impression of a lot of demand.

 

So, how many "customers" are you talking about? Do you know? Does ANYONE know?

 

I just shipped off 17 copies of a "rare" variant that someone sent to me to press....a book that is currently selling for $300+ RAW, and $700-$800 as a 9.8.

 

17 copies. All in one hand.

 

17 may not sound like a lot, but if only 10 people are looking for them......

 

 

Which book ? :baiting:

 

-J.

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Prince Namor

Prince Namor

Posted
Posted

 

There's a difference between variants in and of themselves and the "speculation" that occurs with variants. Perhaps you mean to say that the speculation that occurs on a "hot" variant when it first comes out is "bad for the hobby"? But it would seem to me that would still be beneficial to the vigilant retailer who can charge accordingly and maximize his profits.

 

That's a shortsighted approach, and guaranteed to cause problems down the road.

 

So a retailer sells a "hot variant" for $100. Will that cover the cost of the additional (unsellable) copies of the regular book he/she had to order to get it?

 

Maybe.

 

And what if it doesn't sell?

 

Did that "incentive" do anything at all to increase readers?

 

No.

 

Sure the vast majority of variants come back down to earth once they come out.

 

What about the ones that never "took off" in the first place?

 

Perhaps some of those end up in a retailer's bargain bin. But that just goes with the territory in the retail setting, no?

 

It shouldn't. That's the point I believe Chuck is making. The point should be to increase readers, and variants have never done that.

 

And if you have an online or ebay presence as well I can't imagine it would be very difficult to liquidate product at a reasonable price to "at least" break even.

 

"At least" breaking even mean's you'll be out of business shortly.

 

Jimmy Freaking Christmas on a Popsicle Stick.

 

It's not enough that these guys didn't live this through the 90's, or that they don't understand what happened during the 90's or even see the similarities with the 90's, but now they're actually saying the retail model for what led to 3000+ comic shops closing down, 'just goes with the territory in the retail setting'!!!!!

 

:facepalm: These guys just have no idea, do they?

 

This isn't "the 90's" though. We have the internet now which dramatically expands a retailer's potential customer base

 

As well as every other retailer's potential customer base.

 

and (the vast, vast) majority of "variants" are not being printed in the thousands and tens of thousands and hundreds of thousands.

 

They're being produced in the thousands.

 

Yes they are still "manufactured rarities" but customers obviously like them and like chasing and collecting them. When customers stop buying en masse, I'm sure they will stop being produced (or drastically scaled back).

 

But it is supposed to be about the customer, right ? (shrug)

 

-J.

 

People bought Ford Pinto's in 1978, it didn't mean it was a good idea.

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RockMyAmadeus

RockMyAmadeus

Posted
Posted

 

There's a difference between variants in and of themselves and the "speculation" that occurs with variants. Perhaps you mean to say that the speculation that occurs on a "hot" variant when it first comes out is "bad for the hobby"? But it would seem to me that would still be beneficial to the vigilant retailer who can charge accordingly and maximize his profits.

 

That's a shortsighted approach, and guaranteed to cause problems down the road.

 

So a retailer sells a "hot variant" for $100. Will that cover the cost of the additional (unsellable) copies of the regular book he/she had to order to get it?

 

Maybe.

 

And what if it doesn't sell?

 

Did that "incentive" do anything at all to increase readers?

 

No.

 

Sure the vast majority of variants come back down to earth once they come out.

 

What about the ones that never "took off" in the first place?

 

Perhaps some of those end up in a retailer's bargain bin. But that just goes with the territory in the retail setting, no?

 

It shouldn't. That's the point I believe Chuck is making. The point should be to increase readers, and variants have never done that.

 

And if you have an online or ebay presence as well I can't imagine it would be very difficult to liquidate product at a reasonable price to "at least" break even.

 

"At least" breaking even mean's you'll be out of business shortly.

 

Jimmy Freaking Christmas on a Popsicle Stick.

 

It's not enough that these guys didn't live this through the 90's, or that they don't understand what happened during the 90's or even see the similarities with the 90's, but now they're actually saying the retail model for what led to 3000+ comic shops closing down, 'just goes with the territory in the retail setting'!!!!!

 

:facepalm: These guys just have no idea, do they?

 

This isn't "the 90's" though. We have the internet now which dramatically expands a retailer's potential customer base and (the vast, vast) majority of "variants" are not being printed in the thousands and tens of thousands and hundreds of thousands.

 

Yes they are still "manufactured rarities" but customers obviously like them and like chasing and collecting them. When customers stop buying en masse, I'm sure they will stop being produced (or drastically scaled back).

 

But it is supposed to be about the customer, right ? (shrug)

 

-J.

Remember back then our country had 100 million less people than now. When you factor in all the media and the population growth its hard to see where the increase in readership is coming from. If the tv / movie / internet exposure isn't increasing monthly sales numbers past #1's then rebooting surely will?

 

That's a valid point...

 

In April 1993, the comic book industry printed ("sold" is a very dicey term to use, here) 48 MILLION copies of comic books...one month.

 

In 2015, the amount of comics distributed by Diamond totaled 98 million...for the entire year.

 

And that includes the first comic book to sell over a million copies in nearly (and maybe more than) 20 years, Star Wars #1.

 

So, even though the industry is up, it still pales in comparison to the numbers of the early 90's.

 

And, as Nate points out, there are a lot more people living here than there were in the early 90's.

 

And there is more "superhero" exposure now than at any time in comics' history...but that exposure hasn't translated into more units being sold, not by a very long shot.

 

X-Men....the Jim Lee version....sold more copies of its first 20 issues per month than any comic printed in the 21st century has, except the aforementioned Star Wars #1.

 

Yes, a retailer may have the internet, which may "dramatically expand a retailer's potential customer base"...but it also as dramatically expands a retailer's competition. Sum: zero?

 

YES, digital didn't exist back then, and YES TPBs were in their infancy, and YES, there are competing factors that also didn't exist....but the industry isn't even back to 1978 numbers, one of the darkest years of the comic industry pre-90's, and the year of the DC implosion.

 

What the industry needs now are READERS, not collectors. Collecting is fine...but if the industry isn't built on a foundation of readers, the whole thing will fail.

 

 

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natevegas

natevegas

Posted
Posted

 

There's a difference between variants in and of themselves and the "speculation" that occurs with variants. Perhaps you mean to say that the speculation that occurs on a "hot" variant when it first comes out is "bad for the hobby"? But it would seem to me that would still be beneficial to the vigilant retailer who can charge accordingly and maximize his profits.

 

That's a shortsighted approach, and guaranteed to cause problems down the road.

 

So a retailer sells a "hot variant" for $100. Will that cover the cost of the additional (unsellable) copies of the regular book he/she had to order to get it?

 

Maybe.

 

And what if it doesn't sell?

 

Did that "incentive" do anything at all to increase readers?

 

No.

 

Sure the vast majority of variants come back down to earth once they come out.

 

What about the ones that never "took off" in the first place?

 

Perhaps some of those end up in a retailer's bargain bin. But that just goes with the territory in the retail setting, no?

 

It shouldn't. That's the point I believe Chuck is making. The point should be to increase readers, and variants have never done that.

 

And if you have an online or ebay presence as well I can't imagine it would be very difficult to liquidate product at a reasonable price to "at least" break even.

 

"At least" breaking even mean's you'll be out of business shortly.

 

Jimmy Freaking Christmas on a Popsicle Stick.

 

It's not enough that these guys didn't live this through the 90's, or that they don't understand what happened during the 90's or even see the similarities with the 90's, but now they're actually saying the retail model for what led to 3000+ comic shops closing down, 'just goes with the territory in the retail setting'!!!!!

 

:facepalm: These guys just have no idea, do they?

 

This isn't "the 90's" though. We have the internet now which dramatically expands a retailer's potential customer base and (the vast, vast) majority of "variants" are not being printed in the thousands and tens of thousands and hundreds of thousands.

 

Yes they are still "manufactured rarities" but customers obviously like them and like chasing and collecting them. When customers stop buying en masse, I'm sure they will stop being produced (or drastically scaled back).

 

But it is supposed to be about the customer, right ? (shrug)

 

-J.

Remember back then our country had 100 million less people than now. When you factor in all the media and the population growth its hard to see where the increase in readership is coming from. If the tv / movie / internet exposure isn't increasing monthly sales numbers past #1's then rebooting surely will?

 

That's a valid point...

 

In April 1993, the comic book industry printed ("sold" is a very dicey term to use, here) 48 MILLION copies of comic books...one month.

 

In 2015, the amount of comics distributed by Diamond totaled 98 million...for the entire year.

 

And that includes the first comic book to sell over a million copies in nearly (and maybe more than) 20 years, Star Wars #1.

 

So, even though the industry is up, it still pales in comparison to the numbers of the early 90's.

 

And, as Nate points out, there are a lot more people living here than there were in the early 90's.

 

And there is more "superhero" exposure now than at any time in comics' history...but that exposure hasn't translated into more units being sold, not by a very long shot.

 

X-Men....the Jim Lee version....sold more copies of its first 20 issues per month than any comic printed in the 21st century has, except the aforementioned Star Wars #1.

 

Yes, a retailer may have the internet, which may "dramatically expand a retailer's potential customer base"...but it also as dramatically expands a retailer's competition. Sum: zero?

 

YES, digital didn't exist back then, and YES TPBs were in their infancy, and YES, there are competing factors that also didn't exist....but the industry isn't even back to 1978 numbers, one of the darkest years of the comic industry pre-90's, and the year of the DC implosion.

 

What the industry needs now are READERS, not collectors. Collecting is fine...but if the industry isn't built on a foundation of readers, the whole thing will fail.

 

I forgot to add the stigma of reading comic books for youngsters has virtually disappeared now versus then. If you factor in society acceptance I would venture that having a boost to monthly sales numbers for readership as well yet it hasn't happened.

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RockMyAmadeus

RockMyAmadeus

Posted
Posted

 

There's a difference between variants in and of themselves and the "speculation" that occurs with variants. Perhaps you mean to say that the speculation that occurs on a "hot" variant when it first comes out is "bad for the hobby"? But it would seem to me that would still be beneficial to the vigilant retailer who can charge accordingly and maximize his profits.

 

That's a shortsighted approach, and guaranteed to cause problems down the road.

 

So a retailer sells a "hot variant" for $100. Will that cover the cost of the additional (unsellable) copies of the regular book he/she had to order to get it?

 

Maybe.

 

And what if it doesn't sell?

 

Did that "incentive" do anything at all to increase readers?

 

No.

 

Sure the vast majority of variants come back down to earth once they come out.

 

What about the ones that never "took off" in the first place?

 

Perhaps some of those end up in a retailer's bargain bin. But that just goes with the territory in the retail setting, no?

 

It shouldn't. That's the point I believe Chuck is making. The point should be to increase readers, and variants have never done that.

 

And if you have an online or ebay presence as well I can't imagine it would be very difficult to liquidate product at a reasonable price to "at least" break even.

 

"At least" breaking even mean's you'll be out of business shortly.

 

Jimmy Freaking Christmas on a Popsicle Stick.

 

It's not enough that these guys didn't live this through the 90's, or that they don't understand what happened during the 90's or even see the similarities with the 90's, but now they're actually saying the retail model for what led to 3000+ comic shops closing down, 'just goes with the territory in the retail setting'!!!!!

 

:facepalm: These guys just have no idea, do they?

 

This isn't "the 90's" though. We have the internet now which dramatically expands a retailer's potential customer base and (the vast, vast) majority of "variants" are not being printed in the thousands and tens of thousands and hundreds of thousands.

 

Yes they are still "manufactured rarities" but customers obviously like them and like chasing and collecting them. When customers stop buying en masse, I'm sure they will stop being produced (or drastically scaled back).

 

But it is supposed to be about the customer, right ? (shrug)

 

-J.

Remember back then our country had 100 million less people than now. When you factor in all the media and the population growth its hard to see where the increase in readership is coming from. If the tv / movie / internet exposure isn't increasing monthly sales numbers past #1's then rebooting surely will?

 

That's a valid point...

 

In April 1993, the comic book industry printed ("sold" is a very dicey term to use, here) 48 MILLION copies of comic books...one month.

 

In 2015, the amount of comics distributed by Diamond totaled 98 million...for the entire year.

 

And that includes the first comic book to sell over a million copies in nearly (and maybe more than) 20 years, Star Wars #1.

 

So, even though the industry is up, it still pales in comparison to the numbers of the early 90's.

 

And, as Nate points out, there are a lot more people living here than there were in the early 90's.

 

And there is more "superhero" exposure now than at any time in comics' history...but that exposure hasn't translated into more units being sold, not by a very long shot.

 

X-Men....the Jim Lee version....sold more copies of its first 20 issues per month than any comic printed in the 21st century has, except the aforementioned Star Wars #1.

 

Yes, a retailer may have the internet, which may "dramatically expand a retailer's potential customer base"...but it also as dramatically expands a retailer's competition. Sum: zero?

 

YES, digital didn't exist back then, and YES TPBs were in their infancy, and YES, there are competing factors that also didn't exist....but the industry isn't even back to 1978 numbers, one of the darkest years of the comic industry pre-90's, and the year of the DC implosion.

 

What the industry needs now are READERS, not collectors. Collecting is fine...but if the industry isn't built on a foundation of readers, the whole thing will fail.

 

I forgot to add the stigma of reading comic books for youngsters has virtually disappeared now versus then. If you factor in society acceptance I would venture that having a boost to monthly sales numbers for readership as well yet it hasn't happened.

 

We should theoretically be selling 150-200% of the amount of copies of comics each month that we did in the early 90's...

 

...but, instead, we're selling 5-20% of those numbers, despite all the factors mentioned.

 

But hey, keep pumping out those variants and "first issues", publishers. That's the answer!

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FutureFlash

FutureFlash

Posted
Posted

While I'm not excited for the renumbering of DCs books, I'll still continue on with most of titles that I was purchasing before the switch. But it the constant relaunching/renumbering by Marvel and DC is breaking the completionist habit that most reader/collectors have. And I think that has been proven true by how fast most Marvel books spiral down after #1. I think the same is going to happen to DC with Rebirth. They will get a nice 1-2 month spike then be right back to previous levels, if not lower.

 

I think the big 2 really need to focus on building readers, rather than quick sales with #1s and trying to get retailers to buy a ton of copies (which rot on the shelves) to snag some variants. And Chuck did point out that Image didn't even see a sales dip after dropping variants, which I think can be attributed to the fact that they tend to build readers, if you are enjoying a book a few issues into the series, you are probably not going to be dropping it. Plus they get their trades out right after the last issue in the arc, which allows new readers to jump on with floppies after they caught up on the trades. And if they do lose a few readers, the new people jumping on make up for the lost numbers. I did that myself with Manifest Destiny, read the first two trades and jumped on with the monthly.

 

I think if DC and Marvel can focus on telling good stories, there is no point in renumbering as sales stay steady above say 60k. They all ready do that with Batman, JL, Star Wars, Vader, Harley, ASM, Avengers, and X-Men (I think). There is no reason that Flash, Superman, WW, GL and others can too. Oh and maybe cut the fat a little bit too, do we really need 150 titles per month from DC and Marvel.

 

And for the record I do like variants and get the occasional one that I like, I just think they should be used more sparingly.

 

Also I wish we could return to the days when it was a badge of honor that the comic you read was in triple digits. I can't believe people in this day and age would not read a book just because the number was to high. Gee Action #904, yup better not get that...I'll have no idea what is going on....

 

 

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Prince Namor

Prince Namor

Posted
Posted
While I'm not excited for the renumbering of DCs books, I'll still continue on with most of titles that I was purchasing before the switch. But it the constant relaunching/renumbering by Marvel and DC is breaking the completionist habit that most reader/collectors have. And I think that has been proven true by how fast most Marvel books spiral down after #1. I think the same is going to happen to DC with Rebirth. They will get a nice 1-2 month spike then be right back to previous levels, if not lower.

 

I think the big 2 really need to focus on building readers, rather than quick sales with #1s and trying to get retailers to buy a ton of copies (which rot on the shelves) to snag some variants. And Chuck did point out that Image didn't even see a sales dip after dropping variants, which I think can be attributed to the fact that they tend to build readers, if you are enjoying a book a few issues into the series, you are probably not going to be dropping it. Plus they get their trades out right after the last issue in the arc, which allows new readers to jump on with floppies after they caught up on the trades. And if they do lose a few readers, the new people jumping on make up for the lost numbers. I did that myself with Manifest Destiny, read the first two trades and jumped on with the monthly.

 

I think if DC and Marvel can focus on telling good stories, there is no point in renumbering as sales stay steady above say 60k. They all ready do that with Batman, JL, Star Wars, Vader, Harley, ASM, Avengers, and X-Men (I think). There is no reason that Flash, Superman, WW, GL and others can too. Oh and maybe cut the fat a little bit too, do we really need 150 titles per month from DC and Marvel.

 

And for the record I do like variants and get the occasional one that I like, I just think they should be used more sparingly.

 

Also I wish we could return to the days when it was a badge of honor that the comic you read was in triple digits. I can't believe people in this day and age would not read a book just because the number was to high. Gee Action #904, yup better not get that...I'll have no idea what is going on....

 

 

+1

 

Yet another reason that shows how Marvel and DC are all about sales and don't understand how to attract readers.

This re-numbering game has led to some spectacular sales spikes, but those spikes are due to the '#1 issue collectible mentality, disguised as a new jumping on point. They've actually lost long time readers because of this game.

The fact that they ramp up the incentive variants for these reboots is yet more proof of their motives, for those variants.

They DON'T offer incentive variants for great storylines. hm

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