Where did all the Marvel Silver Age art go ?

[JadeGiant]

I find this topic extremely fascinating and enjoy all the links, stories, etc. From what I have gathered, Marvel owned the artwork in the early years of the company. During this time, the artwork was not valuable or valued significantly to any degree and a lot of it made it’s way out of Marvel offices in numerous manners. In fact, it sounds like the art was more valuable to the company in creating good will with customers, fans, visitors, etc. than it was viewed as an asset. At the point that Marvel decided that the art was more valuable as a physical asset and decided to give it back, anything prior to that point is moot in terms of what happened to it. If it was stolen and Marvel didn’t do anything about it, that was their decision. Even when the art was given back, I believe if was done as a gift so that there was no implication that the art was owed/obligated in any way.

 

I only say this to try and understand the outcry. Those that are very vocal about Kirby/Ditko, etc. being stolen from, wronged, mistreated, etc. , … who is to blame? What is the solution? I am genuinely curious to what should happen at this point?

 

[Bird]

Well, the solution if you know that you own stolen property is to offer to return it to the rightful owner. (The artists, not Marvel as I believe that Marvel's decision to return the art would lead to the artists being rightful owners even if the art was stolen when Marvel owned it.) I am pretty sure that Steve Ditko has refused an offered return of art, but his take on the situation is certainly atypical.

 

I think everyone knows this, but emotions cloud the issue.

 

If you own art that you think MAY be stolen that is different. I would want to do a little digging and try to know for sure, but respect the decision each person makes on this. (I myself asked an artist outright and was very relieved when he said I could keep the art.)

 

 

[Bird]

I also think that those flood stories are very important. It is much more likely all that art was destroyed than given away or stolen. I myself do not understand the leap from not returned to "stolen and hiding in someone's filing cabinets and closets" when a flood (or two) is involved.

[vodou]

I also think that those flood stories are very important.

Absolutely. If it can happen to 1.7 million stock certificates it can happen to anything anywhere. And does. Often. But geez - DTCC, ya'll need figure out a new plan to store the 1%'s wealth

[BCarter27]

vodou, where do you find this stuff? . The lengths they went to to rescue those documents... then at the end... "We had to print some replacements." I think someone should have lead with that!

[jaybuck43]

I also think that those flood stories are very important.

Absolutely. If it can happen to 1.7 million stock certificates it can happen to anything anywhere. And does. Often. But geez - DTCC, ya'll need figure out a new plan to store the 1%'s wealth

 

Sandy was awful. It also cleared out a huge chunk of criminal cases off the court calendar since copious amounts of evidence was lost/destroyed (or at least the chain of custody was very much questioned)

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/02/nyregion/hurricane-destroyed-evidence-held-by-new-york-police.html?_r=0

 

I still remember the days leading up to it, backing up computers and case files to make sure nothing was lost in a worst case scenario. Took us a few weeks to get back up and running 100% after the storm.

[JadeGiant]

Well, the solution if you know that you own stolen property is to offer to return it to the rightful owner. (The artists, not Marvel as I believe that Marvel's decision to return the art would lead to the artists being rightful owners even if the art was stolen when Marvel owned it.) I am pretty sure that Steve Ditko has refused an offered return of art, but his take on the situation is certainly atypical.

 

I think everyone knows this, but emotions cloud the issue.

 

If you own art that you think MAY be stolen that is different. I would want to do a little digging and try to know for sure, but respect the decision each person makes on this. (I myself asked an artist outright and was very relieved when he said I could keep the art.)

 

 

As I see it, the artists are the rightful owner to the art that was actually given to them at which point it was in their possession. IIIRC, in one of the articles, Marvel had the artists sign an acknowledgement that the art from years earlier that they were being given was a gift. I am sure this was due to the fact that they did NOT have any more of the older art and that the gift of what they were giving did not imply that they were responsible for recovering the older art that was lost. So whatever art that was not given to the artists was never their property.

[Bird]

Well, the solution if you know that you own stolen property is to offer to return it to the rightful owner. (The artists, not Marvel as I believe that Marvel's decision to return the art would lead to the artists being rightful owners even if the art was stolen when Marvel owned it.) I am pretty sure that Steve Ditko has refused an offered return of art, but his take on the situation is certainly atypical.

 

I think everyone knows this, but emotions cloud the issue.

 

If you own art that you think MAY be stolen that is different. I would want to do a little digging and try to know for sure, but respect the decision each person makes on this. (I myself asked an artist outright and was very relieved when he said I could keep the art.)

 

 

As I see it, the artists are the rightful owner to the art that was actually given to them at which point it was in their possession. IIIRC, in one of the articles, Marvel had the artists sign an acknowledgement that the art from years earlier that they were being given was a gift. I am sure this was due to the fact that they did NOT have any more of the older art and that the gift of what they were giving did not imply that they were responsible for recovering the older art that was lost. So whatever art that was not given to the artists was never their property.

 

Right, but Marvel's intent was to return ALL art and had it been present it would have been returned. Although I do not know the law, given Marvel's intent here and the complications inherent in the situation I would say giving it to the artist is the right thing to do. So assuming it a given that it should be returned, either ask Marvel directly or go the artist route.

[vodou]

Sandy was awful. It also cleared out a huge chunk of criminal cases off the court calendar since copious amounts of evidence was lost/destroyed (or at least the chain of custody was very much questioned)

Gosh. Just like the collapse of Building 7.

[jaybuck43]

Sandy was awful. It also cleared out a huge chunk of criminal cases off the court calendar since copious amounts of evidence was lost/destroyed (or at least the chain of custody was very much questioned)

Gosh. Just like the collapse of Building 7.

 

It's been 15 years and I still have a hard time going down there.

[JadeGiant]

Well, the solution if you know that you own stolen property is to offer to return it to the rightful owner. (The artists, not Marvel as I believe that Marvel's decision to return the art would lead to the artists being rightful owners even if the art was stolen when Marvel owned it.) I am pretty sure that Steve Ditko has refused an offered return of art, but his take on the situation is certainly atypical.

 

I think everyone knows this, but emotions cloud the issue.

 

If you own art that you think MAY be stolen that is different. I would want to do a little digging and try to know for sure, but respect the decision each person makes on this. (I myself asked an artist outright and was very relieved when he said I could keep the art.)

 

 

As I see it, the artists are the rightful owner to the art that was actually given to them at which point it was in their possession. IIIRC, in one of the articles, Marvel had the artists sign an acknowledgement that the art from years earlier that they were being given was a gift. I am sure this was due to the fact that they did NOT have any more of the older art and that the gift of what they were giving did not imply that they were responsible for recovering the older art that was lost. So whatever art that was not given to the artists was never their property.

 

Right, but Marvel's intent was to return ALL art and had it been present it would have been returned. Although I do not know the law, given Marvel's intent here and the complications inherent in the situation I would say giving it to the artist is the right thing to do. So assuming it a given that it should be returned, either ask Marvel directly or go the artist route.

 

From my readings, Marvel’s intent was to return all art that was in their possession. Anything not in their possession was not part of the equation. I think that is why it was done as a gift as to not imply the artist had a right to anything that they didn’t give them. I am sure they saw the landmine if there was anything implying that they were responsible for getting art that was long gone.

[Bill C]

Enjoyed reading those accounts Mike, thanks.

[glendgold]

Here are 3 VERY interesting stories very few people on this board have heard.......

 

I acquired the COMPLETE ASM 20 Steve Ditko story from this collector.

 

When we finalized our deal....I asked him how he acquired it........... And he said he did alot of volunteer work for Marvel back in the late 60's and early 70's and was never paid for it in cash of course....

 

He was then told that he could go into the Marvel offices and take "1" story of his choice for the work he did...he told me in the early 70's that all 38 issues of Amazing Spiderman were there in the Marvel offices and he looked through all 38 original art issues........

 

He decided to take the ASM 20 interior book as his favorite story from the 38 ASM books there.

 

So my question is...... Is this book still considered "stolen" if this revelation is true?

 

(SNIP)

 

Mike

 

 

I can confirm having heard this story from other people who worked at Marvel in similar capacities during the same period, so Mike's seller isn't the only one who acquired art this way. I'm fairly sure at least one other complete Ditko book came out of the offices the same way.

[pemart1966]

Here are 3 VERY interesting stories very few people on this board have heard.......

 

I acquired the COMPLETE ASM 20 Steve Ditko story from this collector.

 

When we finalized our deal....I asked him how he acquired it........... And he said he did alot of volunteer work for Marvel back in the late 60's and early 70's and was never paid for it in cash of course....

 

He was then told that he could go into the Marvel offices and take "1" story of his choice for the work he did...he told me in the early 70's that all 38 issues of Amazing Spiderman were there in the Marvel offices and he looked through all 38 original art issues........

 

He decided to take the ASM 20 interior book as his favorite story from the 38 ASM books there.

 

So my question is...... Is this book still considered "stolen" if this revelation is true?

 

In the overall scheme of things....there probably is no real concrete answer.....as this is nothing more than just an interesting read for those who want to know more of how things happened back in the day.

 

Also..... a very reliable source told me that in 1985-1986 or so...... the complete books to ASM 7, 9, and 13 were taken from the Marvel offices (supposedly by a renowned comic artist) and these books were being split up and sold at a MARVEL comic convention in new York city...

 

my source walked up to MARVEL president JIM SHOOTER a few tables down from this guy selling split up Ditko ASM books and asked him if it was ok for him to buy these art pages..and Jim Shooter said he could buy whatever he wanted as Marvel would not say anything adversely about it.

 

another friend of mine said that in the early 1970's.....He met Stan Lee who was signing at a comic book store in New York City, and Stan had a "HUGE" STACK of original art with him he was selling for 10-20 bucks per page..and no one was really buying them as they preferred to buy comics and have him sign them.

 

Mike

 

 

 

Mike - Spidey 7, 9 and 13 were out there earlier than 1985-86. In the case of #9 - 1982 if memory serves me correctly.

 

Great story about the art for 20. It just confirms, to me anyway, that all of that art is out there.

[Hekla]

Has there been any record of which pages Stan passed around to movie execs back in the day? I'm sure it wasn't just a single page or splash page (or covers?); I could see someone saying 'oh my kids love comics, give me several pages'

[Funnyslover]

Has there been any record of which pages Stan passed around to movie execs back in the day? I'm sure it wasn't just a single page or splash page (or covers?); I could see someone saying 'oh my kids love comics, give me several pages'

 

Indeed ?

 

And to think until now we've had interesting and generally near factual reminisces of our history.

 

What a buffoon !

 

G'nite

[Funnyslover]

I

[Unca Ben]

I

 

...fell asleep?

[pemart1966]

I

 

...fell asleep?

 

 

[jaybuck43]

Bumping this thread. Interesting lawsuit going on here in NYC. Apparently a Picasso was sold by a woman who claims her employer gave it to get as a gift (she was her housekeeper). The Picasso then changed hands, was put on display at Art Basel in Miami, attempted for sale at Sotherbys and now the employer is claiming that it was stolen by the housekeeper (who no longer lives in the United States) and the current owner is being sued.

 

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/westchester-billionaire-picasso-work-sale-stolen-article-1.2608399