Silver Age Hierarchy: Poll 4: 22nd - 24th

[KirbyJack]

As much as I like Fury and Rock, they're both too unrealistic for my idea of War Comics (Fury especially). I therefore fold them into their respective superhero universes. This emphasis gives Ol' Nick the edge for me.

[bronze johnny]

I voted off Sgt Fury 1 (for the third straight time), and the 2 Spidey villain books.

 

I know FF 4 isn't long for the list, but that's one of the best comic books ever produced..........I mean, I get it, but I hate to see it go.

 

FF4 is a greater key than FF 48 and I love the Surfer over Sub-Mariner. Sure, the story arc that begins in FF48 is one of the greatest ever but Namor's contribution to the early Marvel SA is so significant to Marvel. The idea of taking a GA hero like Namor and bringing him back as a villain was just another example of Lee and Kirby's genius. And what a cover!

 

I disagree - I think FF48 is a much more important book, as it was the first appearance of a key hero and key villain and started Marvel's "galactic" titles/storylines. But I recognize that to some people FF4 is more important.

 

I also would not compare FF4 to AV4 - in my opinion AV4 is a much more important book.

 

The Fantastic Four's success during the beginnings of the Marvel SA required 1st rate villains. FF4 and 5 were the books that really started it all especially with the team-up of Doom and Subby that followed. The success of the early SA FF years was critical. The GA Sub-Mariner had been gone but had he been forgotten? A reintroduction of a popular Timely creation during this new era was another stroke of genius for Marvel. Sub-Mariner was the first great villain of the Marvel SA - immediately followed by the greatest Marvel villain of them all. The cosmic storyline of FF 48 is the high point of the middle of Marvel's SA where not one, but two great Marvel characters are introduced. The underlying question is whether the FF 48's cosmic storyline or Marvel's branching out into space supercedes the beginnings of the Marvel SA villians necessary to ensure the greatness of the new superheroes of the early '60s. It doesn't. These polls bring out the passion we have for these books and I have great respect for your position as to FF 48. I'm not a Subby fan and as mentioned before, the Surfer is a favorite of mine.

 

As for Avengers 4, I never compared it to FF 4. However, I will point out that the '62 books are special- they were the first to initially define the Marvel SA. Cap's reintroduction is a '64 classic that is an exception. And what a cover!

[zosocane]

I know FF 4 isn't long for the list, but that's one of the best comic books ever produced..........I mean, I get it, but I hate to see it go.

 

Hold the guillotine on FF4. Marvel now confirms that Subby movie rights are in fact with Marvel Studios!

 

http://www.comicbookmovie.com/namor_the_submariner/the-rights-to-namor-the-sub-mariner-are-back-with-marvel-a142261

[Jaydogrules]

I know FF 4 isn't long for the list, but that's one of the best comic books ever produced..........I mean, I get it, but I hate to see it go.

 

Hold the guillotine on FF4. Marvel now confirms that Subby movie rights are in fact with Marvel Studios!

 

http://www.comicbookmovie.com/namor_the_submariner/the-rights-to-namor-the-sub-mariner-are-back-with-marvel-a142261

 

But universal has distribution....

 

-J.

[jjonahjameson1]

I see AF 15 and Hulk 1 have a vote each. Someone with a strong preference for DC must have voted

[Chillax23]

I voted off Sgt Fury 1 (for the third straight time), and the 2 Spidey villain books.

 

I know FF 4 isn't long for the list, but that's one of the best comic books ever produced..........I mean, I get it, but I hate to see it go.

 

FF4 is a greater key than FF 48 and I love the Surfer over Sub-Mariner. Sure, the story arc that begins in FF48 is one of the greatest ever but Namor's contribution to the early Marvel SA is so significant to Marvel. The idea of taking a GA hero like Namor and bringing him back as a villain was just another example of Lee and Kirby's genius. And what a cover!

 

I disagree - I think FF48 is a much more important book, as it was the first appearance of a key hero and key villain and started Marvel's "galactic" titles/storylines. But I recognize that to some people FF4 is more important.

 

I also would not compare FF4 to AV4 - in my opinion AV4 is a much more important book.

 

The Fantastic Four's success during the beginnings of the Marvel SA required 1st rate villains. FF4 and 5 were the books that really started it all especially with the team-up of Doom and Subby that followed. The success of the early SA FF years was critical. The GA Sub-Mariner had been gone but had he been forgotten? A reintroduction of a popular Timely creation during this new era was another stroke of genius for Marvel. Sub-Mariner was the first great villain of the Marvel SA - immediately followed by the greatest Marvel villain of them all. The cosmic storyline of FF 48 is the high point of the middle of Marvel's SA where not one, but two great Marvel characters are introduced. The underlying question is whether the FF 48's cosmic storyline or Marvel's branching out into space supercedes the beginnings of the Marvel SA villians necessary to ensure the greatness of the new superheroes of the early '60s. It doesn't. These polls bring out the passion we have for these books and I have great respect for your position as to FF 48. I'm not a Subby fan and as mentioned before, the Surfer is a favorite of mine.

 

As for Avengers 4, I never compared it to FF 4. However, I will point out that the '62 books are special- they were the first to initially define the Marvel SA. Cap's reintroduction is a '64 classic that is an exception. And what a cover!

 

I respect your opinion with regards to FF4 as well and I do think it is an important book, just not as important as FF48

 

The AV4 comment was not directed at you, but another poster after you. TO me AV4 is vastly different than FF4 - I am not sure the Avengers would have had the success they had if not for AV4 as this is when the Avengers really started IMO (that is not to say that AV1 is not very important but it will always be linked to AV4)

[bronze johnny]

I voted off Sgt Fury 1 (for the third straight time), and the 2 Spidey villain books.

 

I know FF 4 isn't long for the list, but that's one of the best comic books ever produced..........I mean, I get it, but I hate to see it go.

 

FF4 is a greater key than FF 48 and I love the Surfer over Sub-Mariner. Sure, the story arc that begins in FF48 is one of the greatest ever but Namor's contribution to the early Marvel SA is so significant to Marvel. The idea of taking a GA hero like Namor and bringing him back as a villain was just another example of Lee and Kirby's genius. And what a cover!

 

I disagree - I think FF48 is a much more important book, as it was the first appearance of a key hero and key villain and started Marvel's "galactic" titles/storylines. But I recognize that to some people FF4 is more important.

 

I also would not compare FF4 to AV4 - in my opinion AV4 is a much more important book.

 

The Fantastic Four's success during the beginnings of the Marvel SA required 1st rate villains. FF4 and 5 were the books that really started it all especially with the team-up of Doom and Subby that followed. The success of the early SA FF years was critical. The GA Sub-Mariner had been gone but had he been forgotten? A reintroduction of a popular Timely creation during this new era was another stroke of genius for Marvel. Sub-Mariner was the first great villain of the Marvel SA - immediately followed by the greatest Marvel villain of them all. The cosmic storyline of FF 48 is the high point of the middle of Marvel's SA where not one, but two great Marvel characters are introduced. The underlying question is whether the FF 48's cosmic storyline or Marvel's branching out into space supercedes the beginnings of the Marvel SA villians necessary to ensure the greatness of the new superheroes of the early '60s. It doesn't. These polls bring out the passion we have for these books and I have great respect for your position as to FF 48. I'm not a Subby fan and as mentioned before, the Surfer is a favorite of mine.

 

As for Avengers 4, I never compared it to FF 4. However, I will point out that the '62 books are special- they were the first to initially define the Marvel SA. Cap's reintroduction is a '64 classic that is an exception. And what a cover!

 

I respect your opinion with regards to FF4 as well and I do think it is an important book, just not as important as FF48

 

The AV4 comment was not directed at you, but another poster after you. TO me AV4 is vastly different than FF4 - I am not sure the Avengers would have had the success they had if not for AV4 as this is when the Avengers really started IMO (that is not to say that AV1 is not very important but it will always be linked to AV4)

 

 

The fact that FF4 is the more significant book in my opinion in no way underscores the historical value of FF48. The one major difference is that Marvel was already on its way by 1966- the expansion was 2 years away. 1962 was a critical formative year for Marvel. The introduction of Spidey, Thor, Hulk, and Antman (TTA 27 hits the news stands at the end of '61 with TTA 35 Antman in costume coming out in '62) paved the way to Marvel's superhero SA- completing the transition from the Atlas-Marvel Pre-Hero Age that started with FF1. The initial success of these heroes required significant villains. '62 introduced those villains- Subby and Doom. '62 also had the most significant re-intro of an original Timely superhero creation- the success upon which would later lead to "Cap Lives Again!" - the greatest Timely character re-intro of the Marvel SA. It is for these reasons why FF4 is a major key in the most important year of the Marvel SA!

 

[vaillant]

Subby – strictly speaking – has never been a "villain" in the proper sense of the term.

 

I can see why the importance of FF#4 is underlined as preparing the ground – so to speak – for the reintroduction of Captain America. But the introduction of Captain America would have had more implications, and some more weight, than the re-introduction of Sub-Mariner. Historically they share a similar importance, but when the Marvel Age "came together", Captain America re-affirmed itself as the more relevant character, and not only because he was given the leadership of the Avengers.

 

If we want to be balanced, Fantastic Four #48-50 are equally important (they just came later) as they established the "cosmic breathe" within the Marvel age. Subsequent stories owe much to the success of that initial intuition, not just looking at single characters, but overall.

[bronze johnny]

Subby – strictly speaking – has never been a "villain" in the proper sense of the term.

 

I can see why the importance of FF#4 is underlined as preparing the ground – so to speak – for the reintroduction of Captain America. But the introduction of Captain America would have had more implications, and some more weight, than the re-introduction of Sub-Mariner. Historically they share a similar importance, but when the Marvel Age "came together", Captain America re-affirmed itself as the more relevant character, and not only because he was given the leadership of the Avengers.

 

If we want to be balanced, Fantastic Four #48-50 are equally important (they just came later) as they established the "cosmic breathe" within the Marvel age. Subsequent stories owe much to the success of that initial intuition, not just looking at single characters, but overall.

 

This "Timely-Marvel" key is one of the '62 seeds that sprouted the tree which later extended the "cosmic branch." True, Subby wasn't a villain in the sense that Doom was. Nevertheless, Subby was a significant part of a year where the Marvel SA begins in earnest. The brilliance of the Marvel SA is not limited to the conceptual superhero who encountered everyday real life problems that readers could identify with. The connection between these characters in a developing integrated new universe and the story of how this all came together is another reason why the Marvel SA stood apart from the limited successes of a major competitor's prior encounter with the reintroduction of the superhero. The incorporation of an original major Timely character into the new Marvel SA mosaic went a step further than the revamped Timely Human Torch of the Fantastic Four. The popularity of the Fantastic Four was a major reason why Torch got his own collection of stories in Strange Tales in '62. Another reason had to do with those readers growing up in the '50s without an alternative to DC's remaining GA superheroes. The reintroduction of a revamped Timely character to these "veteran anything but DC superhero" comic book readers must have been an exciting opportunity for them. This element of continuity that the Timely characters maintained for readers who remembered the GA stories was a significant part of Marvel's early success. Marvel had its history as a publisher that readers still remembered. The mid '50s attempt to resurrect the Timely characters without juxtaposing these oldies with newer creations may have been a reason why it resulted in failure and distinguishes the Atlas revival from the approach Marvel took with its SA. This Marvel SA approach ultimately reached the greatest heights of "Timely" success with the reintroduction in '64 of Captain America and his leading the most popular Marvel SA assembled team of established superheroes. Marvel's juxtaposing the "old and the new" was one key reason why the Silver Age of Comics is often referred to as the Marvel Age. Marvel did it better than DC. Thanks to the critical year of '62 and the incredible keys that hit the news stands then- new creations that followed in the footsteps of FF1- like AF 15, Hulk 1, and JIM 83- new superheroes that represented the future of the new Marvel Comics. For those lucky enough to see and buy these books from the racks back in those days, they also got the chance the see the cover of FF4- the issue that introduced the first original Timely character into the new universe of Marvel Comics. The old and the new...

[vaillant]

But I am not questioning any of your points, which of course are all valid.

I am just saying that – with the appropriate difference – #48-50 are equally important in the development of the Marvel age. And of course, #4 remains more expensive than #48, and righteously so (not only because #4 is scarcer).

 

Ah, now you have me wanting a #4 (#4 and #1 being the only ones I am effectively missing among the early ones).

[solm4st3r]

How did Flash 106 and 123 not make the initial list?

[KPR Comics]

A couple of reasons:

1. Marvel rules the day (18 out of 24 left are Marvel)

2. 1st appearances of super-heroes rule the day

 

[ChasingKingKirby]

A couple of reasons:

1. Marvel rules the day (18 out of 24 left are Marvel)

2. 1st appearances of super-heroes rule the day

 

Infuriatingly true.

[LordRahl]

But I am not questioning any of your points, which of course are all valid.

I am just saying that – with the appropriate difference – #48-50 are equally important in the development of the Marvel age. And of course, #4 remains more expensive than #48, and righteously so (not only because #4 is scarcer).

 

Ah, now you have me wanting a #4 (#4 and #1 being the only ones I am effectively missing among the early ones).

 

How did you reach that conclusion? What makes you think that if #4 and #48 were equally difficult to find in high grade, that the 48 wouldn't be as much as or more expensive than #4?

 

There are 333 copies of #48 graded 9.2 or higher and only 28 of #4. #4 sells for around $12-13K in 9.2 and #48 sells for around $1500-1800. Seems to me that 48 sells for more factoring in the available supply. The price difference is 100% related to available supply and not to the importance of the book. In fact, given how ubiquitous 48 is, I'm surprised it sells for as much as it does still.

 

For clarity, I absolutely believe that 48 would sell for more than 4 if supply was just as limited. 48 - first appearance of a major Marvel character, 4 - reintroduction of a character that had appeared 100's of times before. I'm not saying that #4 isn't important but I am saying it isn't AS important.

[bronze johnny]

But I am not questioning any of your points, which of course are all valid.

I am just saying that – with the appropriate difference – #48-50 are equally important in the development of the Marvel age. And of course, #4 remains more expensive than #48, and righteously so (not only because #4 is scarcer).

 

Ah, now you have me wanting a #4 (#4 and #1 being the only ones I am effectively missing among the early ones).

 

 

[Chillax23]

But I am not questioning any of your points, which of course are all valid.

I am just saying that – with the appropriate difference – #48-50 are equally important in the development of the Marvel age. And of course, #4 remains more expensive than #48, and righteously so (not only because #4 is scarcer).

 

Ah, now you have me wanting a #4 (#4 and #1 being the only ones I am effectively missing among the early ones).

 

How did you reach that conclusion? What makes you think that if #4 and #48 were equally difficult to find in high grade, that the 48 wouldn't be as much as or more expensive than #4?

 

There are 333 copies of #48 graded 9.2 or higher and only 28 of #4. #4 sells for around $12-13K in 9.2 and #48 sells for around $1500-1800. Seems to me that 48 sells for more factoring in the available supply. The price difference is 100% related to available supply and not to the importance of the book. In fact, given how ubiquitous 48 is, I'm surprised it sells for as much as it does still.

 

For clarity, I absolutely believe that 48 would sell for more than 4 if supply was just as limited. 48 - first appearance of a major Marvel character, 4 - reintroduction of a character that had appeared 100's of times before. I'm not saying that #4 isn't important but I am saying it isn't AS important.

 

I agree with this - if #48 was as scarce as #4 I think #48 would sell for more - the Surfer is a far more appealing character (IMO) and again first appearance vs re-introduction.

 

But again FF4 is an awesome book - and, as has been pointed out, an amazing cover!

[zosocane]

Just curious -- if a genie appeared and said to you, "pick either of the following books that you may keep at no cost to you," who would pick an FF48 CGC 8.5 over an FF6 CGC 6.0, both comparably priced books in the $1,200ish range?

 

 

[thehumantorch]

Voted for ASM 3 and 14 and OAAW 83

[1koko]

Poll has ended.

 

22nd = FF#4 and Sgt Fury #1

24th ASM #3

 

Next poll starts in 10 mins

[LordRahl]

Just curious -- if a genie appeared and said to you, "pick either of the following books that you may keep at no cost to you," who would pick an FF48 CGC 8.5 over an FF6 CGC 6.0, both comparably priced books in the $1,200ish range?

 

 

I'd take the 48 because I don't collect in the Fine range but am good in the VF and above range. However, the answer is most likely going to be influenced for many people by the amount of available books. 48 has more than double the amount of 8.5 and higher graded than 4 does in 6.0 and above.

 

The only way to equalize that one very major difference is for there to be a warehouse find of FF 4 with 50,000 copies that are all of a sudden uncovered. Watch the price on that book rocket downwards if that were to happen (which of course it won't). Point being that a lot of people will answer FF4 because it is the harder book to find.... considerably harder.